This is pretty much the mentality I imagined him having.
He was wrong, but convincingly wrong to a large number of his subordinates.
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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
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- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
This is pretty much the mentality I imagined him having.
He was wrong, but convincingly wrong to a large number of his subordinates.
- Location
- madison
yeah, rogers is very much a cautionary tale to me. He wasn't corrupt or incompetent, he was wrong with passion and certainty.
pheonix89
Wants to be Seven Of Nine
- Location
- North American Plaguelands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Speaking of the Ares and Romulans:
Because of the stealth nerf to the Connies (the Connie-A was retconned to C4 S3 H3 L3 P4 D5?, see Cheron) the Romulan BoP probably needs a stealth nerf of it's own. I'm almost certain it's canon that the TOS era BoP NEEDS to exploit the cloak to beat a Connie/Connie-A, but right now the OG BoP is flatly better in combat at C4 S2 H5 L3 P3 D4. Which is decidedly better.
Because of the stealth nerf to the Connies (the Connie-A was retconned to C4 S3 H3 L3 P4 D5?, see Cheron) the Romulan BoP probably needs a stealth nerf of it's own. I'm almost certain it's canon that the TOS era BoP NEEDS to exploit the cloak to beat a Connie/Connie-A, but right now the OG BoP is flatly better in combat at C4 S2 H5 L3 P3 D4. Which is decidedly better.
aeqnai
Nerdy Homu
- Location
- Laniakea Supercluster
- Pronouns
- She/Her
So, if we were to apply the same nerf...
The BoP would be C3 S1 H4 L2 P2 D4, taking a -1C -2S +1H -1L -2P -1D compared to the Connie, for -80br +20sr -4O -1E -3T
It's, actually significantly worse than a Connie, until you remember it's 1/5 the tonnage of one, and then that looks actually reasonably good. That sr cost tho.
I do not support reclassing the Excelsior as a cruiser. We are doctrinally dependent on having explorers doing event response. That particular line of Base Strike is not good for us.
The Ambassador will not be a garrison ship. I do not forsee effective new garrison capships within our known tech tree length.
The Ambassador will not be a garrison ship. I do not forsee effective new garrison capships within our known tech tree length.
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trooperist
Cinnamon Roll AI
What ever happened to Rogers? Is he dead or imprisoned?
The next garrison capship canonically was probably the sovereign.
Alias
Lord of Otters
- Location
- Northrend
What are the qualifications for a ship to be a Garrison ship?
aeqnai
Nerdy Homu
- Location
- Laniakea Supercluster
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Odds are either Risa or, if the fullness of his crimes came to light, New Zealand. The UFP doesn't do capital punishment.
Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Frozen in a block of ice until someone finds the crashed aircraft he's on.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
Unknown. However I suspect he's a private citizen again; even in the most ungenerous takes like mine, he was simply relieved for cause and booted out of the service. There's a good argument he simply resigned.
Theunderbolt
"Prepare for trouble..."
- Location
- USoA
In STO the Galaxy retrofit comes with one iirc.
Section 31 never got off the ground in this verse. (Or is that what they want us to think ....)
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
I'm pretty sure Onerios...well.
"
Section Thirty-One. We have dismissed that claim."
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
What he's saying is that Ambys are just too expensive. We're talking 300br, 250sr, 8/8/7+ crewing and 5.5 years to build. It's better than an Excelsior, but at some point it's better to just have more hulls than the best possible except for EC ships.
- Location
- Infraspace
So, something new. This stunning Excelsior mesh is ChrisKuhn's Enterprise-B ('Kirk's Last Ride'), from blendswap. I've modified the textures to Courageous' markings though.
The star looks a little silly, but ah well...
I'm very pleased with how the shield came out, though, which is more widely applicable.
The star looks a little silly, but ah well...
I'm very pleased with how the shield came out, though, which is more widely applicable.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
One ship getting hit eleven times and the other nine is fairly probable, simply because there are two ways for it to happen (Exeter 11, Challorn 9, or vice versa). However, one ship getting hit fourteen times and the other getting hit six remains highly unlikely. The catch being, of course, that as I noted, there are so many different unlikely things that can happen that some of them are, statistically speaking, bound to happen in any given fight.
We'd probably be using Centaur-As to scout for the battlecruisers, and that would be manageable, but you are so right about the lack of resources.
The tragedy of the Ares design is that a "pocket explorer" isn't actually a stupid idea. The problem was making it so unbalanced against Science (due to the science suite being compromised to make room for more weapons), and overemphasizing the tactical aspect. And of doing all this so shortly after the Excelsior-class was designed, so that Rogers would wind up with a ship that's only slightly smaller than an Excelsior (so that it competes directly with them for berths and budget), but cannot be designed with significantly better technology than an Excelsior (so that it remains inferior in performance).
Even so, it's the unbalanced stats that were the killer. If the statline had been more like, oh, 5/4/4/5/3/5 on a 1.8-megaton hull, we might have run into some very interesting debates over whether to build one of those instead of an Excelsior in any given year. We might well have decided on a high/low mix of Excelsiors for the Explorer Corps and Areses as sector garrison flagships.
[Obviously that statline doesn't look great compared to the Rennie since it's literally identical just with Science/Presence swapped, but the Renaissance class is a 2310s design, not a 2290s design]
I dunno. I mean, I'm not sure Defiant had a better helmsman than we've written Stol as being, for example, and I doubt whoever they have on sensors is superior to Zaardmani (whose bonus of "literally never fail a sensor check" is about as godlike as I can imagine- Zaardmani should be up there with Spock and Data). Worf is memetic as a legendary tactical/weapons/security officer, but I'm not sure he'd confer benefits on a ship above and beyond the +3 Combat/Shields/Hull that an Elite ship already gets anyway.
I think modeling Defiant as an Elite ship is good enough, frankly. Especially since we know Defiant was already designed from the keel up for immense firepower, and that the main advantage conferred by the Elite crew is
The catch is that it's not very realistic to leave one more ship behind so as to secure a bonus, especially since there's always the possibility that the enemy will have one more ship than you thought... at which point their increased numbers may offset your bonus. Or they might even have Swarm doctrine, in which case they get a bonus for outnumbering you. It would cancel out.
I assume you mean the Romulan bird of prey, yes? Frankly, I think that the high Hull values of some of the Klingon and Romulan designs don't work too well with their tonnage, though you can reasonably figure that the Klingons are just building heavily armored ships that are durable for their tonnage.
Honestly if I were statting a Bird of Prey... suffice to say that I'd rate a TOS-era Connie as being around 3/3/2/3/2/3 or so. The TOS-era Bird of Prey had one hell of an alpha strike weapon (dose plasma torpedoes), but was considerably less mobile (at least under cloak), and almost certainly more spartan in accomodations and less durable, given the Romulan tendency to favor all-in, highly aggressive designs. I'd stat such a ship, in modern terms at around 3/2/1/2/1/2, broadly competitive with a stock Miranda... but that's assuming they're at least remotely within shouting distance of a Miranda in size. Refits might kick it up a point or two.
It really isn't very credible, though, that a statline like that could coexist with the idea of a Bird of Prey weighing only a quarter as much as a Constellation and somehow managing to match or outperform it in almost all categories.
This is why when I put together notes for the "2235 Game" idea, I actually wrote a straightforward mathematical rule connecting ship stats to ship weight. It's a lot less work than trying to eyeball it, and it forces you to be consistent.
(Credit goes to @Nix for thinking of judging the value of a ship by the 1.5th power of its total stats; I'd never have been able to feel happy with the balance of my function otherwise)
Given that it's been fifteen years or so, he might actually be out of jail even if he had wound up in prison. His actions were fraudulent, but they weren't self-serving merely deeply, deeply misguided, and he did step down gracefully. Since it's not like there's much risk of recidivism, he's not really a risk.
Ideally a Garrison Cruiser will have good Defense, Science and Presence, so it can run around it's assigned sector and do all the Federation things.
It will have enough Combat, Hull and Shields that it can be used for combat reinforcements, but that is a secondary role and it shouldn't be used as the main combatant if you have a choice.
It needs to be cheap enough in everything that we can build at least a dozen (or three) in a reasonable time frame.
It will have enough Combat, Hull and Shields that it can be used for combat reinforcements, but that is a secondary role and it shouldn't be used as the main combatant if you have a choice.
It needs to be cheap enough in everything that we can build at least a dozen (or three) in a reasonable time frame.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well, there's garrison cruisers, in the sense of cruiser-sized ships optimized for event response instead of warfare.
And there's garrison explorers, that is to say, very large ships like the Excelsior that can be used as heavy event-response ships and flagships of sector fleets. Our doctrine choices make it highly desirable to have garrison explorers, but the problem is actually designing good ones. Right now, it looks like the Excelsior-A is the best we're going to get for a long time; Ambassadors don't really make sense as ships assigned to handle sector fleet duties. Too big, too expensive, we will never, never have enough of them.
We might some day design a ship in the two to three megaton weight class that outperforms the Excelsior handily enough to begin to replace it... but that's a long time in the future.
And there's garrison explorers, that is to say, very large ships like the Excelsior that can be used as heavy event-response ships and flagships of sector fleets. Our doctrine choices make it highly desirable to have garrison explorers, but the problem is actually designing good ones. Right now, it looks like the Excelsior-A is the best we're going to get for a long time; Ambassadors don't really make sense as ships assigned to handle sector fleet duties. Too big, too expensive, we will never, never have enough of them.
We might some day design a ship in the two to three megaton weight class that outperforms the Excelsior handily enough to begin to replace it... but that's a long time in the future.
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It's a moot point right now. It'll be
Only at that point would we consider giving the Excelsior the Connie-B treatment, streamlining it for combat and garrison duty while cutting costs and crew requirements.
- Location
- Patriarchova
Ah, didn't know photon lances were a thing in existing Trek media. I thought they were something Oneiros made up.
Still, that supports my assessment that you need a very large ship to carry one.
- Location
- somewhere
That was with the old combat system which was much more favorable to high stat ships than the current one. For the current one the battle value is probably better approximated by summing up the relevant stats without any exponent; small ships can't be knocked out anywhere near as quickly anymore and shield regen not scaling with stats is a big advantage for them. For events high stats are still super-linearly useful, though the stats would need to be weighted first since they clearly aren't approximately equally useful if you restrict yourself to that purpose.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
We'll be easily able to build an average of one or two Ambassadors a year starting in 2328 (any ships earlier than that would have to be started during the prototyping phase). Given that the Explorer Corps of that time could easily be up to ten or ships, you're right; it may be 2340 or so before we retire Excelsiors from Explorer Corps duties.
Duly noted.
Though honestly, if I were doing this all myself, I'd have stuck with something more like the old combat engine, if only because it is a LOT easier to write an story describing a small scale battle between one or two ships on each side based on a 10-turn combat log than on a 100-turn log.
There are a wealth of good reasons to model combat as having both sides do chip damage to the other that builds up over a long period of time until one ship is worn away by sheer erosion, but for some reason I like the small-integer system we had up through, oh, 2311 or so.
You mean this?
Renaissance 2320-2360 [330m 1m t]
C5 S3 H4 L5 P4 D5
Cost[100br, 80sr, 3 years], Crew [O-3, E-5, T-3]
Yes.Cost[100br, 80sr, 3 years], Crew [O-3, E-5, T-3]
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