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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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ThoughtMaster said:
The Cuban Missile Crisis was due to the threat of WMDs being based within range of the capital of the opposing nation, and was a response to the other side doing the same (see US nuclear bases in Turkey). Seeing as none of my proposed moves would put us in firing range of Cardassia Prime, combined with the fact that none of their vessels are within range of our capital world, I can't see how the comparison is accurate. Besides, it isn't as though Cardassia can, produce … WMDs. … Cardassia has been signed into the treaty banning the use of Genesis type weapons, right?
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You're missing the point. Confrontational posturing between nations ratchets up tensions and increases the chance of all-out war. What do you expect the Cardassians to do in response to your proposed land grab, and how is it beneficial to us? Because none of the responses I consider likely are particularly helpful.
 
ThoughtMaster said:
The Cuban Missile Crisis was due to the threat of WMDs being based within range of the capital of the opposing nation, and was a response to the other side doing the same (see US nuclear bases in Turkey). Seeing as none of my proposed moves would put us in firing range of Cardassia Prime, combined with the fact that none of their vessels are within range of our capital world, I can't see how the comparison is accurate. Besides, it isn't as though Cardassia can, produce … WMDs. … Cardassia has been signed into the treaty banning the use of Genesis type weapons, right?
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Thoughtmaster, I seriously have no idea what you're even proposing anymore.

1. You said something about sweeping our supply lines around tailwards of Sydraxian to enter the Gabriel Border zone from corewards. I don't know why you think that extending supply lines to make them six weeks longer would be a benefit.

2. You also said something about attempting to place colonies around tailwards of Sydraxian space to hem them in. Colonies are placed to acquire some resource or because there's a planet suitable for long term colonization. We don't have any examples of either sort of site in that space. Even if we did, we don't have the resources to put colonies there and in the GBZ at the same time.
 
Briefvoice said:
Thoughtmaster, I seriously have no idea what you're even proposing anymore.

1. You said something about sweeping our supply lines around tailwards of Sydraxian to enter the Gabriel Border zone from corewards. I don't know why you think that extending supply lines to make them six weeks longer would be a benefit.

2. You also said something about attempting to place colonies around tailwards of Sydraxian space to hem them in. Colonies are placed to acquire some resource or because there's a planet suitable for long term colonization. We don't have any examples of either sort of site in that space. Even if we did, we don't have the resources to put colonies there and in the GBZ at the same time.
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And 3, right now, we are building as many colonies as we can to try to keep us in SR, and don't have the extra prospecting and colonization ships on hand for a tactical activity that is going to take years, and may not be relevant by the time it's finished.
 
ThoughtMaster said:
The Cuban Missile Crisis was due to the threat of WMDs being based within range of the capital of the opposing nation, and was a response to the other side doing the same (see US nuclear bases in Turkey). Seeing as none of my proposed moves would put us in firing range of Cardassia Prime, combined with the fact that none of their vessels are within range of our capital world, I can't see how the comparison is accurate. Besides, it isn't as though Cardassia can, produce … WMDs. … Cardassia has been signed into the treaty banning the use of Genesis type weapons, right?
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Okay, I can see your objections. They're incredible, and they indicate that you have a very poor grasp of this sort of thing, but I can see them. So.

@ThoughtMaster, shall we instead try a... thought exercise?

You're at the meeting point of two alleyways. So, there's an exit from your location north, south, west, and east. A guy from the gang that beat you up last week is standing in one of the exits, but you have a lead pipe so you don't feel too threatened.

Now, imagine another guy from that gang coming up and blocking the another of the exits. Okay, scary, but okay.

Another ganger blocks another exit. How are you feeling now?

A fourth ganger blocks the last exit. They're not doing anything, just kind of standing there preventing you from leaving and smoking cigarettes while toying with their own lead pipes.

And they don't leave. They just stand there, watching you.

If they choose to attack you first you'll be hospitalized for sure, maybe killed. If you choose to try to fight your way out and strike first, it'll give you a slight advantage, and that gives you a better chance that you might get out okay. Or you can hope that these guys from the gang that beat you up last week will just stand there, and that you'll be okay just standing here trapped between them, forever and ever.

Now I'm sure you'll agree that this metaphor has a number of problems. For one thing, you can't grow food in an alleyway stuck between four gangers.

So let's add in one additional thing.

You're high as fuck, and it's a really bad trip.

This is to simulate the Sydraxian and Cardassian predisposition towards aggression. I think it's been pretty clearly spelled out that the Cardassians think much more militarily than the UFP does, and, well, the Sydraxians started an interstellar conflict over an isolated diplomatic incident.

So you're high as fuck, these gangers are moving in on you...

Are you not going to attack them?

And if you can argue that you're not... Have you ever done drugs? Have you ever been a Sydraxian?

Why are you so sure?
 
Kaizuki said:
Okay, I can see your objections. They're incredible, and they indicate that you have a very poor grasp of this sort of thing, but I can see them. So.

@ThoughtMaster, shall we instead try a... thought exercise?

You're at the meeting point of two alleyways. So, there's an exit from your location north, south, west, and east. A guy from the gang that beat you up last week is standing in one of the exits, but you have a lead pipe so you don't feel too threatened.

Now, imagine another guy from that gang coming up and blocking the another of the exits. Okay, scary, but okay.

Another ganger blocks another exit. How are you feeling now?

A fourth ganger blocks the last exit. They're not doing anything, just kind of standing there preventing you from leaving and smoking cigarettes while toying with their own lead pipes.

And they don't leave. They just stand there, watching you.

If they choose to attack you first you'll be hospitalized for sure, maybe killed. If you choose to try to fight your way out and strike first, it'll give you a slight advantage, and that gives you a better chance that you might get out okay. Or you can hope that these guys from the gang that beat you up last week will just stand there, and that you'll be okay just standing here trapped between them, forever and ever.

Now I'm sure you'll agree that this metaphor has a number of problems. For one thing, you can't grow food in an alleyway stuck between four gangers.

So let's add in one additional thing.

You're high as fuck, and it's a really bad trip.

This is to simulate the Sydraxian and Cardassian predisposition towards aggression. I think it's been pretty clearly spelled out that the Cardassians think much more militarily than the UFP does, and, well, the Sydraxians started an interstellar conflict over an isolated diplomatic incident.

So you're high as fuck, these gangers are moving in on you...

Are you not going to attack them?

And if you can argue that you're not... Have you ever done drugs? Have you ever been a Sydraxian?

Why are you so sure?
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I feel compelled to vouch for @ThoughtMaster here. I am reasonably sure they've never been a Sydraxian.
 
Impersonating a Sydraxian would defiantly a double black diamond level mission for a Lecarren. having to not only look that scary, but act aggressive towards a bunch of people who also look that scare who will rip you apart if your cover is blown probably drives most to just activate the suicide implant in the first year.
 
Simon_Jester said:
We don't actually know if the Lion was eaten by a temporal anomaly to be spat out later, or just plain 'eaten.' There's been speculation along those lines, but no proof.

The question is, is "Q" a species, though. Maybe it isn't, maybe it's a description. What difference is there, functionally, between a Q and a being of similar power? Is the difference between beings like the Q who taunts Picard and the Organians a difference of 'kind,' or just a difference of 'degree' and personality?

It's entirely possible to imagine that "the Q Continuum" is less like a single ultra-advanced species and more like "The Nigh-Omnipotent Energy Being United Nations."
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But cannon has shown nothing to sustain your position. the idea is interesting, but it is a fan idea, nothing more.
And, what has been shown, seems to move against that.
So, I am going to disagree.

That was all one episode.
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you are right, must have confused myself with Judgment Rites

The problem is that given how fast and easy travel and communications are for godlike beings, these entities should all know each other and interact regularly if they get out and interact with anyone at all. Either they've all formed a single overarching body, OR they would be coming into conflict regularly.

What you're asking for is like imagining an industrialized planet where there is no level of local government above that of small villages. It wouldn't work; 'large' societies that act on a large scale require some kind of large scale organization to mediate disputes.
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Not necessarily, they might have areas of influence or have conditions and arrangements worked out, but not necessarily be part of one group. this set up would be the best as it would imply that whatever limitation they operate under might be due to some sort of diplomatic accord.

But, still leave enough loose parts to have them work against one other or what not
 
Are the Dawiar completely surrounded by the Federation now? What does it mean for the treaty of Celos?
 
Joshrand1982 said:
Are the Dawiar completely surrounded by the Federation now? What does it mean for the treaty of Celos?
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The Dawiar were already mostly surrounded before the Treaty was signed. With the annexation of Themis, the main difference is that interaction between them and Cardassia has to pass through Lecarre space and around rimwards of Rethelia sector. This would be a problem for them, except that the Dawiar and Cardassians don't seem to be on the best of terms right now anyways. They're only not Federation affiliates because they were Ashalla Pact clients first, and affiliation is largely first-come-first-serve.
 
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There is I think also the possibility of going over or under the galactic plane since I don't think that we actually completely encompass the Dawiar (or other races), at least at the moment.
 
It's interesting that the Dawiar felt breaking with the Cardassians for us was the End of Ambition, but I'm willing to bet that if they had done it and signed up as affiliates, we'd be at the very least Yellow Lighting them to the GBZ rather quickly. Heck, if we were allowed to talk to them I'd even consider offering a deal like "affiliate and help out in the GBZ and for every colony you take according to [agreed definition] we'll exchange it for a closer colony to your control".

That "no talking" clause sucks.
 
@OneirosTheWriter
It becomes immediately relevant in the next Ex Astris, Scientia what your intent for Survey Sensors is. A general explanation would suffice. Do they increase science? Are they intended to be more or less weight or crew efficient than labs or other sensors? Or alternately, do they have special bonuses to specific missions?

Also if you have a chance to make the proposed Offensive Doctrine slides reality that would be neat too. I'd like to start pushing for an Offensive Doctrine team or two. That's a year from now at least, possibly longer, though.



@everyone else
Nix laid out three potential start dates for the Kepler project that we should consider.

I have gone over the best Kepler designs with a fine-toothed comb and the choice seems to me:
2316
C2 S7 H2 L4 P5 D4 at 950kt for 95 br 85 sr, 2.25 year build, 2/3/3 crew
C2 S8 H2 L4 P5 D4 at 1100kt for 110 br 90 sr, 2.5 year build, 2/3/4 crew

2317
C2 S7 H2 L4 P5 D4 at 950kt for 95 br 85 sr, 2.25 year build, 2/3/3 crew
C1 S7 H2 L3 P5 D4 at 950kt for 95 br 90 sr, 2.25 year build, 2/2/3 crew
C2 S8 H2 L4 P5 D4 at 1100kt for 110 br 100 sr, 2.5 year build, 2/3/3 crew

2318
We still don't know what survey sensors do. It's a 3-boost mystery box.

e: That is to say, these are not the exact designs by any means, but the increases shown represent approximately what each start year would mean for a number of designs. Basically, crew reduction for SR cost.
 
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IMO the 1100kt designs feel like a bit much. The performance is good, but they very much get right to the top of the envelope and they feel like we're really pushing the limits of what the Council will consider a science vessel. I'd prefer 2/2/3 crewing and C1, myself, given the crunches we're faced with. But I can understand wanting +1C/S/L, too.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
@OneirosTheWriter
It becomes immediately relevant in the next Ex Astris, Scientia what your intent for Survey Sensors is. A general explanation would suffice. Do they increase science? Are they intended to be more or less weight or crew efficient than labs or other sensors? Or alternately, do they have special bonuses to specific missions?

Also if you have a chance to make the proposed Offensive Doctrine slides reality that would be neat too. I'd like to start pushing for an Offensive Doctrine team or two. That's a year from now at least, possibly longer, though.



@everyone else
Nix laid out three potential start dates for the Kepler project that we should consider.

I have gone over the best Kepler designs with a fine-toothed comb and the choice seems to me:
2316
C2 S7 H2 L4 P5 D4 at 950kt for 95 br 85 sr, 2.25 year build, 2/3/3 crew
C2 S8 H2 L4 P5 D4 at 1100kt for 110 br 90 sr, 2.5 year build, 2/3/4 crew

2317
C2 S7 H2 L4 P5 D4 at 950kt for 95 br 85 sr, 2.25 year build, 2/3/3 crew
C1 S7 H2 L3 P5 D4 at 950kt for 95 br 90 sr, 2.25 year build, 2/2/3 crew
C2 S8 H2 L4 P5 D4 at 1100kt for 110 br 100 sr, 2.5 year build, 2/3/3 crew

2318
We still don't know what survey sensors do. It's a 3-boost mystery box.

e: That is to say, these are not the exact designs by any means, but the increases shown represent approximately what each start year would mean for a number of designs. Basically, crew reduction for SR cost.
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Where'd the 2317 L4 P5 come from? I con't remember seeing it.

IMO, either C2 S7 H2 L4 P5 D4 at 950kt for 95 br 85 sr, 2.25 year build, 2/3/3 crew or the 2318 black box should be used.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
@everyone else
Nix laid out three potential start dates for the Kepler project that we should consider.

I have gone over the best Kepler designs with a fine-toothed comb and the choice seems to me:
2316
C2 S7 H2 L4 P5 D4 at 950kt for 95 br 85 sr, 2.25 year build, 2/3/3 crew
C2 S8 H2 L4 P5 D4 at 1100kt for 110 br 90 sr, 2.5 year build, 2/3/4 crew

2317
C2 S7 H2 L4 P5 D4 at 950kt for 95 br 85 sr, 2.25 year build, 2/3/3 crew
C1 S7 H2 L3 P5 D4 at 950kt for 95 br 90 sr, 2.25 year build, 2/2/3 crew
C2 S8 H2 L4 P5 D4 at 1100kt for 110 br 100 sr, 2.5 year build, 2/3/3 crew

2318
???
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Wow. It looks like we have to eat a really bad statline in terms of combat capability to push the crew down to 2/2/3.

Just to be clear, are there no palatable designs with decent stats on a hull of less than 950 kilotons? Even if they compromise on shields/presence/defense while retaining high Science? I think that's probably a question a lot of people will want to know the answer to, because all of these designs come with significant sticker shock.


Briefvoice said:
Eeeeeeeeeeh. I think you're making a lot of assumptions about a state of being about which we know less than nothing.

Personally, I my go-to for this stuff is the concept of "subliming" from the Ian M. Banks Culture novels.
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Insofar as any faction within the Q (and/or other 'omnipotent energy being' races) meddle in mortal affairs*, and insofar as they have the ability to materially harm one another**, there has to be some kind of structure that acts to mediate and moderate their interactions. Otherwise they'd have blown up the universe long ago.

I don't really feel the need to say more; there are a variety of plausible speculations that fit within the envelope of "what is that structure," but I'm not especially committed to any one of them.
____________

*(which they evidently do, and with not-inconsiderable frequency if you think in terms of deep time and the entire galaxy)
**(which they apparently do)

Leila Hann said:
I feel compelled to vouch for @ThoughtMaster here. I am reasonably sure they've never been a Sydraxian.
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I actually disagree. ThoughtMaster has exhibited some very Cardie/Sydraxian thought patterns (i.e. unleashing the Biophage as a last gesture of pure nihilistic vengeful evil upon a victorious enemy). The problem is that he doesn't seem to understand that other people react intelligently to dangerous situations. He expects them to just stand there and let themselves be surrounded and threatened.

random_npc said:
Impersonating a Sydraxian would defiantly a double black diamond level mission for a Lecarren. having to not only look that scary, but act aggressive towards a bunch of people who also look that scare who will rip you apart if your cover is blown probably drives most to just activate the suicide implant in the first year.
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Also the part where, for a Lecarre infiltrator, the plastic surgery required to impersonate a Sydraxian requires that they decapitate you and install a prosthetic neck. That's pretty hardcore.

Chaos Blade said:
But cannon has shown nothing to sustain your position. the idea is interesting, but it is a fan idea, nothing more.
And, what has been shown, seems to move against that.
So, I am going to disagree.
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The fan interpretation in question has the huge advantage of interpreting canon without being self-contradictory. There's a major implied contradiction in having a galaxy that swarms with highly diverse races of godlike beings that interact only with the Enterprise and never interact with each other, or with other parts of the Federation, or with other species. They all just sort of... exist... in these identical parallel cubbyholes, passively waiting for us to encounter them. Or in one case exiting the cubbyhole to interact with us and only with us.

And if we break the cubbyhole system down so that we have recurring interactions with the Metrons and the Organians and the Q and this group and that group... Now we have a different problem, which is that if they're all nigh-immortal demigod species and they interact with us, why don't they interact with each other? The notion is absurd.

So sure, my position is noncanon- but the alternative is to swallow a ridiculous idea.

Not necessarily, they might have areas of influence or have conditions and arrangements worked out, but not necessarily be part of one group. this set up would be the best as it would imply that whatever limitation they operate under might be due to some sort of diplomatic accord.

But, still leave enough loose parts to have them work against one other or what not
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There still has to be some structure of some kind. No one ever said the Q Continuum was a particularly tightly defined or organized 'government.' indeed the opposite seems to be true given that we have multiple instances of chaos and dissension blowing up within the Continuum over a period of only a few short years. But there has to be some kind of structure, because all these different beings would still be interacting with one another and not just with us. They're too powerful to share a galaxy for long unless either they're all isolationist, or they're all prepared to make a "gentleman's agreement" about how to use their power.
 
Does the treaty apply to our affiliates? We could offer colony options to the Dawiar through the Affiliates.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Wow. It looks like we have to eat a really bad statline in terms of combat capability to push the crew down to 2/2/3.

Just to be clear, are there no palatable designs with decent stats on a hull of less than 950 kilotons? Even if they compromise on shields/presence/defense while retaining high Science? I think that's probably a question a lot of people will want to know the answer to, because all of these designs come with significant sticker shock.


Insofar as any faction within the Q (and/or other 'omnipotent energy being' races) meddle in mortal affairs*, and insofar as they have the ability to materially harm one another**, there has to be some kind of structure that acts to mediate and moderate their interactions. Otherwise they'd have blown up the universe long ago.

I don't really feel the need to say more; there are a variety of plausible speculations that fit within the envelope of "what is that structure," but I'm not especially committed to any one of them.
____________

*(which they evidently do, and with not-inconsiderable frequency if you think in terms of deep time and the entire galaxy)
**(which they apparently do)

I actually disagree. ThoughtMaster has exhibited some very Cardie/Sydraxian thought patterns (i.e. unleashing the Biophage as a last gesture of pure nihilistic vengeful evil upon a victorious enemy). The problem is that he doesn't seem to understand that other people react intelligently to dangerous situations. He expects them to just stand there and let themselves be surrounded and threatened.

Also the part where, for a Lecarre infiltrator, the plastic surgery required to impersonate a Sydraxian requires that they decapitate you and install a prosthetic neck. That's pretty hardcore.

The fan interpretation in question has the huge advantage of interpreting canon without being self-contradictory. There's a major implied contradiction in having a galaxy that swarms with highly diverse races of godlike beings that interact only with the Enterprise and never interact with each other, or with other parts of the Federation, or with other species. They all just sort of... exist... in these identical parallel cubbyholes, passively waiting for us to encounter them. Or in one case exiting the cubbyhole to interact with us and only with us.

And if we break the cubbyhole system down so that we have recurring interactions with the Metrons and the Organians and the Q and this group and that group... Now we have a different problem, which is that if they're all nigh-immortal demigod species and they interact with us, why don't they interact with each other? The notion is absurd.

So sure, my position is noncanon- but the alternative is to swallow a ridiculous idea.

There still has to be some structure of some kind. No one ever said the Q Continuum was a particularly tightly defined or organized 'government.' indeed the opposite seems to be true given that we have multiple instances of chaos and dissension blowing up within the Continuum over a period of only a few short years. But there has to be some kind of structure, because all these different beings would still be interacting with one another and not just with us. They're too powerful to share a galaxy for long unless either they're all isolationist, or they're all prepared to make a "gentleman's agreement" about how to use their power.
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are you basically asking us to throw together something that just hits the minimum reqs and see what stats/cost/crew that gets us?
 
I understand we're still allowed to trade with the Dawair.

Provide rumors of Starfleet being quite open to the possibility of getting affliates to colonize the GBZ.
 
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