Remove ads

To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

Linked contents
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
Reader mode
Chaos Blade said:
He appeared at least twice, in the latter one his parent's showed up and gave him a time out.
If you don't believe me, I will link the episodes summaries.
(thrice if you count the Judgment Rites game)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

No, his parents showed up in his first and only TV appearance.

random_npc said:
you know what kills my about the Q and the gray? They could have actually made the musket thing work. Just explain that after having to recreate the universe 5 times (you're welcome by the way) the Q agreed to fight using essentially laser tag weapons. A hit from one does nothing but mark that Q as out, which is then enforced by either a large neutral faction of Q, or if the writers wanted it to be deadly a Q created cosmic disintegration beam. Then have janeway realizing that this means the weapons are simple enough to be used by humans since it's just a laser pointer, albeit a cosmic one.

essentially stress that the Q are fighting under enforced rules to avoid breaking the universe, and that the voyger crew can loophole themselves in as effective combatants due to them already being involved in this mess. A few conversations with someone complaining that he's abusing the sprit of the rules, and a Q grousing that they could vaporize the voyager crew by thinking hard, a "referee" popping in to say that it's allowed if kind of absurd, and you have the q looking like gods beaten by their own self imposed rules rather than being overpowered.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Of course, the question then is why the other Q faction doesn't just recruit a million more humanoids to join their team, if that's allowed.
 
Last edited:
Simon_Jester said:
I think the idea is more along the lines of:

"The Q aren't a species, they're a designation for a category of nigh-omnipotent entity, and the Q Continuum isn't a specific, single nation that has rival or subordinate groups, it's an overarching entity that includes and represents ALL such beings."

There are fairly plausible ways for that to be a stable phenomenon. Say, as each species develops towards godhood, it is contacted by and integrated into the Q Continuum, with good reason. Coordinating between the members of the Continuum decreases the risk of conflict, and the old differences of physiology and spatial location those species may have had before they ascended probably matter a lot less to them now than they did before. So a group like the Organians may well be both a subset of the Q Continuum and their own independent entity, a species of powerful beings that simply prefer to live on their own planet and recreate a peaceful, low-technology lifestyle.

Actually no, Trelane only appeared once. Literally every time Roddenberry 'needed' a new species of nigh-omnipotent advanced energy beings, he made up an entirely new set. That's one of the reasons we have this problem in the first place.

Conversely, merging some of the entities into a single community whose members do as they wish (that is, the Q Continuum) tends to make this easier, because it means you no longer have to worry so much about the question "but if they seek regular contact with the Organians, why not with the Metrons, the Thasians, etc.?)

You're missing the point. The point is not "we and they aren't going to use the treaty rules to our advantage."

The point is, "if one side takes advantage of the treaty in such a way that the treaty itself is no longer advantageous to the other side, the other side will not simply ignore that going on. They will do things, they will react, they will renegotiate the treaty or ignore the treaty or something."

So your 'cunning' idea of exploiting this particular 'loophole' in the Treaty of Celos falls apart because even if in theory we could do it (doubtful) our rivals wouldn't just stand still and let us do it to them. You never got around to thinking about the party where the enemy gets to fight back, and no strategy can ever be good if it doesn't take that into account.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I know they would respond, that's the idea! Most of our previous actions with the Cardassians have been to negate their moves against us, leaving them able to dictate the tempo of the conflict. Moves like a northern passage to Gabriel, or a Risa-Qloath route are to force the Cardassians and the pact into playing defense instead of offense, to respond to our actions instead of making moves that we would have to counter.
 
Leila Hann said:
Of course, the question then is why the other Q faction doesn't just recruit a million more humanoids to join their team, if that's allowed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

because the rules state no creating helpers, and no "involving the uninvolved" janeway and her crew where involved in the trial that started the whole mess, so they count as involved. Or some other loophole that lets them get involved because they arbitrated that trial, possibly with a line from Q about how he's surprised he was able to sneak that wording past everyone else.
 
Last edited:
ThoughtMaster said:
I know they would respond, that's the idea! Most of our previous actions with the Cardassians have been to negate their moves against us, leaving them able to dictate the tempo of the conflict. Moves like a northern passage to Gabriel, or a Risa-Qloath route are to force the Cardassians and the pact into playing defense instead of offense, to respond to our actions instead of making moves that we would have to counter.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
But the point you miss, is that they most certainly will respond by promptly declaring war, and that indeed any sane polity would to something so blatantly an act of aggression, no matter what any treaty said.

e: That, and they would do so more quickly than we could hope to actually bring in sufficient resources to claim that area, because as we can see in Gabriel, that shit takes effort.
 
Last edited:
random_npc said:
because the rules state no creating helpers, and no "involving the uninvolved" janeway and her crew where involved in the trial that started the whole mess, so they count as involved. Or some other loophole that lets them get involved because they arbitrated that trial, possibly with a line from Q about how he's surprised he was able to sneak that wording past everyone else.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Possibly followed by a comment that the Continuum deserves a kick up its butt if no one else can't be bothered to read just a few stellar masses worth of rulebook - a pamphlet really - with sufficient thought to catch his intended deception.
 
aeqnai said:
But the point you miss, is that they most certainly will respond by promptly declaring war, and that indeed any sane polity would to something so blatantly an act of aggression, no matter what any treaty said.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Ayup. If we beat the Ashalla Pact, its going to be by breaking it up, not overpowering it.

Okay, maybe we will overpower it. But we won't be able to do that until we've broken off some of its members. Dawiar and Yrillians are the most obvious candidates. I think we might be able to get the Sydraxians to give it up too if we convince them that they can only lose by fighting us (ie, in an all out war between the Federation and the AP, even if the AP won the Sydraxians would be devastated), but others disagree.
 
Last edited:
aeqnai said:
But the point you miss, is that they most certainly will respond by promptly declaring war, and that indeed any sane polity would to something so blatantly an act of aggression, no matter what any treaty said.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
How would taking some unclaimed space as our own be an act of aggression? Isn't that what the Gabriel expanse is, unclaimed space? How is exploring and setting up colonies in a different unclaimed region besides Gabriel, one that we already have affiliates nearby, be an act of aggression? How is setting up a trade route between two affiliates and properly guard them be an act of blatant aggression? We aren't moving into territory they have claimed, and Gabriel is far more relevant to the Syndraxian's survival than the area I pointed out. So what is the problem?
 
Losing so many crews... can we streamline the Academy education to reduce the time we need to get fresh bodies- I'm mean cadets? Instead of a Bachelor of Warp Tech, we give out Applied Bachelors in half the time?
 
ThoughtMaster said:
How would taking some unclaimed space as our own be an act of aggression? Isn't that what the Gabriel expanse is, unclaimed space? How is exploring and setting up colonies in a different unclaimed region besides Gabriel, one that we already have affiliates nearby, be an act of aggression? How is setting up a trade route between two affiliates and properly guard them be an act of blatant aggression? We aren't moving into territory they have claimed, and Gabriel is far more relevant to the Syndraxian's survival than the area I pointed out. So what is the problem?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

In a competitive landgrab situation? Yes, its aggressive. Especially if we start establishing our claim by seeking out the Sydraxian fleet and blowing up three of their ships.
 
ThoughtMaster said:
How would taking some unclaimed space as our own be an act of aggression? Isn't that what the Gabriel expanse is, unclaimed space? How is exploring and setting up colonies in a different unclaimed region besides Gabriel, one that we already have affiliates nearby, be an act of aggression? How is setting up a trade route between two affiliates and properly guard them be an act of blatant aggression? We aren't moving into territory they have claimed, and Gabriel is far more relevant to the Syndraxian's survival than the area I pointed out. So what is the problem?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's an incredibly naive view that relies on hostile groups agreeing with it, which they won't. Newsflash: No one cares about technicalities. Not the Council, not the Cardassians, and not any of their affiliates. The paradigm is not "well you didn't say it was your space", the paradigm is "any excuse". Stop thinking in your own terms when trying to explain the actions of others.
 
ThoughtMaster said:
How would taking some unclaimed space as our own be an act of aggression? Isn't that what the Gabriel expanse is, unclaimed space? How is exploring and setting up colonies in a different unclaimed region besides Gabriel, one that we already have affiliates nearby, be an act of aggression? How is setting up a trade route between two affiliates and properly guard them be an act of blatant aggression? We aren't moving into territory they have claimed, and Gabriel is far more relevant to the Syndraxian's survival than the area I pointed out. So what is the problem?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Put it this way: if it weren't for the explicit terms of Celos the GBZ would've led to war. If the Cardies claimed Themis, and/or the space rimward of Rethelia Sector, it'd be war. If they were to claim the nearby unexplored space between us and the Honiani, it'd be war.
 
ThoughtMaster said:
How would taking some unclaimed space as our own be an act of aggression? Isn't that what the Gabriel expanse is, unclaimed space? How is exploring and setting up colonies in a different unclaimed region besides Gabriel, one that we already have affiliates nearby, be an act of aggression? How is setting up a trade route between two affiliates and properly guard them be an act of blatant aggression? We aren't moving into territory they have claimed, and Gabriel is far more relevant to the Syndraxian's survival than the area I pointed out. So what is the problem?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis? Because the Cuban Missile Crisis is the problem.
 
shivers said:
Losing so many crews... can we streamline the Academy education to reduce the time we need to get fresh bodies- I'm mean cadets? Instead of a Bachelor of Warp Tech, we give out Applied Bachelors in half the time?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

In a sustained State of Emergency - maybe.

In the current situation - no. It is our fully trained crew that give us our advantages.
 
Briefvoice said:
Yes, though one of them isn't very comforting. The Lion was eaten by a temporal anomaly and remains missing, presumed to pop out at some arbitrary point in the future.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We don't actually know if the Lion was eaten by a temporal anomaly to be spat out later, or just plain 'eaten.' There's been speculation along those lines, but no proof.

Chaos Blade said:
But thing is all inhabitants of the continuum are Q, so... it really doesn't seem to fit. it is, at worse, a cheap solution.
So, speaking of subsets of the Q, they'd still be Q, nothing more, nothing less.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The question is, is "Q" a species, though. Maybe it isn't, maybe it's a description. What difference is there, functionally, between a Q and a being of similar power? Is the difference between beings like the Q who taunts Picard and the Organians a difference of 'kind,' or just a difference of 'degree' and personality?

It's entirely possible to imagine that "the Q Continuum" is less like a single ultra-advanced species and more like "The Nigh-Omnipotent Energy Being United Nations."

He appeared at least twice, in the latter one his parent's showed up and gave him a time out.
If you don't believe me, I will link the episodes summaries.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That was all one episode.

I'd rather have a wide galaxy, teeming with life and the unknown than a neatly defined Continuum.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The problem is that given how fast and easy travel and communications are for godlike beings, these entities should all know each other and interact regularly if they get out and interact with anyone at all. Either they've all formed a single overarching body, OR they would be coming into conflict regularly.

What you're asking for is like imagining an industrialized planet where there is no level of local government above that of small villages. It wouldn't work; 'large' societies that act on a large scale require some kind of large scale organization to mediate disputes.
 
Last edited:
I've always imagined the Q Continuum as like some high society country club. Extremely selective about who gets in, but few rules for members. So long as you don't go around wiping out species and spoiling other Q's fun, they don't really care what you get up to. They exist to make sure no one omnipotent being decides to go around subjugating the rest, or nukes the whole galaxy. Other than that, they are free to play God on some little planet or contemplate the universe or whatever they want.
 
Simon_Jester said:
What you're asking for is like imagining an industrialized planet where there is no level of local government above that of small villages. It wouldn't work; 'large' societies that act on a large scale require some kind of large scale organization to mediate disputes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Eeeeeeeeeeh. I think you're making a lot of assumptions about a state of being about which we know less than nothing.

Personally, I my go-to for this stuff is the concept of "subliming" from the Ian M. Banks Culture novels.
 
Kaizuki said:
Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis? Because the Cuban Missile Crisis is the problem.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Cuban Missile Crisis was due to the threat of WMDs being based within range of the capital of the opposing nation, and was a response to the other side doing the same (see US nuclear bases in Turkey). Seeing as none of my proposed moves would put us in firing range of Cardassia Prime, combined with the fact that none of their vessels are within range of our capital world, I can't see how the comparison is accurate. Besides, it isn't as though Cardassia can, produce … WMDs. … Cardassia has been signed into the treaty banning the use of Genesis type weapons, right?
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top