The main thing about this design is that it does both the Miranda-A's and Centaur-A's jobs while only being 5br 10sr and 1E more expensive than a Centaur-A.

In 2324 we are going to hit the combat cap, shortly after we finish the Ambassador and the first run of Keplers, and that's if we are lucky and don't lose any more threat and gain literally every single affiliate we currently have as a member. Even if you add the Licori and Ked Paddah, we would only have about 20ish combat cap remaining at that point.

At that point, the only thing we can really do with all our resources is replace ships with others that get more out of each point of combat. This design would do so for the Miranda-A and making it better at garrison work than a Centaur-A just turns it into a cruiser with regards to crew.

My opinion is that we should start the research project on this design in 2318 so that we can begin replacing ships right around 2322 or 2323. Of course, if people want to we can do so earlier.
 
Once we hit the combat cap we'd presumably be looking to get more stats per ship, as opposed to stat efficiency, that is, we'd start building more Excelsior-equivelents than Centuars or Renaisssances.

(Because a C6 H6 L6 is superior to 2 C3 H3 L3 in a straight combat, although the bigger ship probably costs more than the two combined.)
 
Once we hit the combat cap we'd presumably be looking to get more stats per ship, as opposed to stat efficiency, that is, we'd start building more Excelsior-equivelents than Centuars or Renaisssances.

(Because a C6 H6 L6 is superior to 2 C3 H3 L3 in a straight combat, although the bigger ship probably costs more than the two combined.)
Not in the new system, where number of ships do matter. Plus that's not a really fair comparison since the ship we're talking about is C3 H4 L5, which beats the single C6 H6 L6 handily 2v1
 
One things is that escorts tend to have a higher evasion so they are able to dodge more shots. In addition given how the event system works having enough ships to respond to all possible events is important, whereas retiring escorts for cruiser or explorer classes will leave us with fewer ships. In addition during a war period when threat is growing these will be quicker to both produce and replace.

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Also if we need ships to ward off pirates this does not tie up as much combat potential as having to assign a cruiser or explorer would, or if we do we would have 2 escorts instead of 1 cruiser in which case if there is a feint, one can respond while still having a ship guarding the location or convoy.
 
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Not in the new system, where number of ships do matter. Plus that's not a really fair comparison since the ship we're talking about is C3 H4 L5, which beats the single C6 H6 L6 handily 2v1
Huh, under that combat system, we might actually want to construct a 'Shieldship'.

Something like 2C 3H 5L..
Presuming these are typical ships, the C6 H6 L6 would usually lose. Although we have wargames coming up to puzzle out this exact thing.
Hypothetical ships in a hypothetical combat.

The idea is that randomized, the larger ship will statistically start damaging the smaller ships' hull before getting damaged itself.
 
I think 3C should be the minimum for a ship that is expected to fight, anything else leans a little gamey. It also works with the science ship being capped at 2C
 
Plus, when we hit the combat cap stat efficiency compared to C DOES matter. to illustrate, let's take you example and pretend that the C6 ship is an explorer with all 6s in stats. Compared to the design I brought up, it has +3C 3S 2H 1L 3D on the New Orleans. Sounds better right? Well, in a combat cap situation we'd likely not be able to build many of these compared to the frigate, and for the same amount of C 2 frigates have the same combined science and defense, but have +2H and +4L to the single explorer. This only grows as you extrapolate the math(2 explorers versus 4 frigates is +4H +8L, 4 versus 8 is +8 +16, and so on). Now this of course doesn't mean we don't build explorers or cruisers and only focus on frigates, since a single ship having 6 in a stat is pretty useful(especially if it's the only responder to an event!), but to say stat efficiency doesn't matter is wrong.
 
There also isn't actually anything stopping us from building a hypothetical Explorer-Grade ship with.. say, 5C or 4C, which would be.. efficient.
 
One thing that would be good is to think in terms of the roles you want fulfilled, and what you need from your ships to make that happen, and in what you don't need.

If you do that, then what you have is exactly what the ship roles in the Starfleet Tactical turn is for.

And remembering, of course, that the Council will be viewing your roles and the pp cost to get them authorised as ship projects will be tied to their mood/faction strength.
 
There also isn't actually anything stopping us from building a hypothetical Explorer-Grade ship with.. say, 5C or 4C, which would be.. efficient.
We already get -2C from explorer doctrine once we finish the last tech in it so our Excelsior-A is a 7C that counts as 5C. And as it is I think 7C should be our min for new explorers. That would still be stat heavy and any combat tests would not become difficult.
 
And remembering, of course, that the Council will be viewing your roles and the pp cost to get them authorised as ship projects will be tied to their mood/faction strength.

So if Hawks were dominating the Council, easier to get a combat frigate design through, and probably has less restrictions, as an example?

Making guesses here assuming the above:
Doves dominating - they specify low C, high S/P on any ship role designations
Expansion dominating - explorer designs easier
Development dominating - garrison designs easier, want high D
Hawks - combat designs easier
Merchants - no idea
 
We already get -2C from explorer doctrine once we finish the last tech in it so our Excelsior-A is a 7C that counts as 5C. And as it is I think 7C should be our min for new explorers. That would still be stat heavy and any combat tests would not become difficult.
Well functionally then with that we'd be served by building hordes of maxstat explorers, then? Under a Combat Cap scenario, of course - it'd likely be hidieously expensive.
 
We've got another combat cap efficiency tech coming up the Forward defense line. Makes ships in border sectors cost one less. Actually an argument for the 1C Kepler version because that drops their C cap usage to ZERO in border sectors, and combined with Mutual support the only reason to put them elsewhere is if/when we have sectors without adjacent border zones.
 
We've got another combat cap efficiency tech coming up the Forward defense line. Makes ships in border sectors cost one less. Actually an argument for the 1C Kepler version because that drops their C cap usage to ZERO in border sectors, and combined with Mutual support the only reason to put them elsewhere is if/when we have sectors without adjacent border zones.

Which just goes to show that the border zone doctrine benefits from a lot of smaller ships, like the New New Orleans.
 
It is arguably to our advantage for our warships to have high Science. Two of our potential (if at the moment not likely) enemies use cloaking devices. The third could theoretically develop them and may well have at least some knowledge of how to go about doing so. And good overall sensor performance is one of the areas we're likely to be able to cultivate an advantage over at least some of our enemies.

I'm not even sure HOW the saber is getting at least all 2s at only 300kt-I think it's only possible because those stats have never been updated for the new sheet, because if it was I'm sure the ship would double in size at least.
Combination of futuristic technology and the fact that all the 'canon stats' for ships are numbers Oneiros more or less pulled out of a hat and/or online, before we had any options for custom ship design, let alone a process that made custom ship designs effectively mandatory.

Once we hit the combat cap we'd presumably be looking to get more stats per ship, as opposed to stat efficiency, that is, we'd start building more Excelsior-equivelents than Centuars or Renaisssances.

(Because a C6 H6 L6 is superior to 2 C3 H3 L3 in a straight combat, although the bigger ship probably costs more than the two combined.)
Uh... why would you believe this to be true?

Later, I would like to update the Science Escort requirements to allow for C3, so that our Keplers have some bite to them.
Why? Keplers aren't for biting things, they're for event response, interior patrols, and providing science vessel support to the ships that have bite.

The Miranda-A is about the best you can get for 60 br and 45 sr. Like, I was able to replicate it, but only just.

We'd need a modification of our combat frigate requirements, but on a 600kt hull I can get you this:
C4 S2 H4 L3 P1 D3 - 65br 50sr - 649kt 2yr - O1 E3 T2

I feel this ship is trash bin trash, but it is nominally an upgrade to the M-A. e: Also it's on the edge of the militarization formula, which usually means militarization per hull after the sniff test.
Ah. Okay!

Thank you for answering the question clearly. This helps illustrate the nature of the problem nicely.

Hypothetical ships in a hypothetical combat.

The idea is that randomized, the larger ship will statistically start damaging the smaller ships' hull before getting damaged itself.
Except that's not actually true. On average, if you ignore evasion, the big ship lands half as many hits with double the power, while the small ships land twice as many hits with half the power. Both sides will (ignoring evasion) do 60 HP of damage in roughly the same amount of time.

In theory, if the big ship gets lucky and significantly more than half of its hits land on one of the two smaller ships, it might bring down the shields on one of the smaller ships before experiencing shield failure itself. However, this is not inherently likely: a Combat 6 ship is dishing out an average of 3 HP of damage per shot. You're looking for the equivalent of, say, flipping a coin 20 times and getting 13 heads and 7 tails or vice versa- possible, but not very likely.

And even this very incremental and tiny advantage is almost certainly going to be eaten up by the evasion difference.

So I still don't understand why you expect the larger ship to start inflicting hull damage first, if both sides still have equal total amount of shield and combat scores. Some luck might make that possible, but it's not what you'd predict to happen over and over every single time, or even most of the time.

Well functionally then with that we'd be served by building hordes of maxstat explorers, then? Under a Combat Cap scenario, of course - it'd likely be hidieously expensive.
Trying to balloon the stats of the explorers to the highest possible values (say, "all 9s" on a 3100-kiloton hull) would be counterproductive, because that -2 Combat per explorer is a flat bonus. It would be more beneficial to build greater numbers of explorers with lower firepower. However, because NPCs in this game behave like actual people and not drooling morons or mindless robots, we aren't going to be able to get away with, say, spamming hoards of Combat 4 explorers with their Hull and Shields cranked up hella high to make them indestructible on the battlefield. The Council would be able to tell we were trying to do that and we'd probably end up losing part or all of our Combat discount on explorers.
 
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However, because NPCs in this game behave like actual people and not drooling morons or mindless robots, we aren't going to be able to get away with, say, spamming hoards of Combat 4 explorers with their Hull and Shields cranked up hella high to make them indestructible on the battlefield. The Council would be able to tell we were trying to do that and we'd probably end up losing part or all of our Combat discount on explorers.
I honestly don't see a problem with hoards of C4 Explorers with massive Hull and Shields. As long as their Science and Presence are up to scratch they are still Explorers. If anything I'd expect them to approve since we'd be prioritizing keeping the crew safe over raw destructive power.
 
More of Explorer-grade ships. Actual Explorers want a max combat as well, because there are Combat checks.
 
I honestly don't see a problem with hoards of C4 Explorers with massive Hull and Shields. As long as their Science and Presence are up to scratch they are still Explorers. If anything I'd expect them to approve since we'd be prioritizing keeping the crew safe over raw destructive power.
The catch is that the effect of this is to allow us to build ships with a combined Combat of 400 (for example) while remaining under a Combat cap of 200 by exploiting the "-2 to explorer Combat cap contribution" doctrine.

Basically, that -2 to explorer combat cap contribution is us telling the Council "Those giant ships with all the guns? They're okay, they're just peaceful exploration vessels that only have all those weapons because space is dangerous!" The reduction of the explorer contribution to the combat cap is a measure of the extent to which the Council actually believes us.

If we're exploiting that to squeeze in 'a few more ships,' then it can fly- as will be the case if we have 20 Combat 7 explorers and they're contributing 100 points to the combat cap.

But if we're using it to build a battlefleet of 50 Combat 4 ships, any one of which is so tough and durable that it can easily wipe the floor with a Jaldun or probably even a Kaldar... AND have them contribute only 100 points to the combat cap...

In that case, it's not going to fly. The excuse will wear thin. Realistically, that is not a strategy that we would be allowed to pursue in game, because it relies on the Council ignoring the clear intent of our actions- to build up a large warfleet of ships that are individually lightly armed but very large. And to ignore the drawbacks of these actions, such as requiring extremely disproportionate numbers of crew and Federation resources to maintain such a big fleet of crew and resource-hungry ships.

I'm pretty sure Oneiros has actually straight up told us that if we try to overexploit the Lone Ranger doctrine by building stupidly lightly-armed 'explorers' in huge numbers, bad stuff will happen.
 
We can always design an arbitrary ship statline and call it the New Orleans?

It's not like there's One True Statline that represents What The Ships Really Are; nothing in canon provides a basis to try and quantify things that precisely.
 
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