To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

lbmaian · Mar 4, 2017

Void Stalker said:
Ah I missed the 1 PP left over from the snakepit. And there is a good chance we get 15 cost again this last quarter so either way we will be using resilience. Still our base PP income would be 90. Assume total cost after resilience of 66 we would get 30 PP from income. Huh we will be about 180 PP plus Q4 and Q1 events. Man big spending items next snakepit! Academy expansion, a shipyard in Apiata perhaps, any colonies (since we get colony cores next year which gives us 2RP per non research colony and 1 pp per colony).

Actually, we're both still wrong

Forgot to include "[FREIGHT] Send 2 extra freighters, 2 extra Cargo Ships (-15pp)". edited above post

pheonix89 · Mar 4, 2017

I think Mrr'Shan just earned her second tour. Preventing a major affiliate from going into a racial civil war, one that would have been started with a capital warship carrying out ethnic cleansing by orbital fire? Yeah, that counts as preventing a crisis.

Night · Mar 4, 2017

Making it formal.

Night said:
Sidenote: if we integrate the Yan-Ros into the Federation, does that mean we skip ahead to functional personal shielding tech in the tech tree? Because that right there would save a lot of RP. We'd probably also pick up a lot of personal gear technology. They're one of the few societies we've encountered who are obviously ahead of us in some dimension and the rules on that are...hazy.

@OneirosTheWriter, what's the procedure on this situation?

nocarename · Mar 4, 2017

lbmaian said:
Can you imagine Yan-Ros security operating in Orion space?

I'm having more than enough trouble keeping my attempt at Dragnet: Caitain Frontier Police from turning into a Detective Conan episode. Take your John Woo fights to another trouble spot.

Here's something to keep you up at night. In addition to the Cardassians picking up an economic bonus from having a range of affiliates close enough to trade with they are really pouring resources into the Gabriel Expanse. And not just the shooting ones!
(All total fleets are based on the Ghosts and Whispers Epilogue, so there may have been a few more built or traded for, but should be good for order of magnitude estimates.)
Cargo Ship: 5/35 - 14.29%
Freighters: 4/22 - 18.18%
Super freighters: 0/2 - 0%
Engineers: 4/8 - 50%
Passengers: 1/4 - 25%
Prospectors: 3/6 - 50%
Colony Ships: 3/4 - 75%

Keeping in mind that to run their expanded trade networks and keep that economic bonus takes a certain amount of cargo handling capacity... Yow. In Admiral Ainsowrth's boots I'd be looking at maybe trying some commerce raiding, harassing of prospectors, or something on all those construction sites.

Void Stalker · Mar 4, 2017

lbmaian said:
Actually, we're both still wrong

Forgot to include "[FREIGHT] Send 2 extra freighters, 2 extra Cargo Ships (-15pp)". edited above post

Ah well still we have 135 PP and are likely to get 30 PP or so from income, so 165 plus 2 quarters of events. Not a bad haul and it will let us chose a lot of options in the next snakepit. I think a new shipyard in Apiata and an Academy expansion, Constellation cruiser refit, maybe a starbase in the GBZ. A tech team if we have the RP for it and one or two diplo pushes on some of the non-affilates, like the Ked Peddah, Yrillians, Graterians or that new insect species.

OneirosTheWriter · Mar 4, 2017

My PP ledger for 2313 so far:

	78
Income
		-10	Honiani Exchange
		-10	Salnas Disaster
S'harien Q1.M3	10
Valiant Q1.M2	10
Enterprise Q1.M1	20	-15	Pacifists
Odyssey Q2.M1	5	-82	Snakepit
Indoria Ratification	25	-5	Thirishar Q2.M1
Sarek Q2.M2	16
Apinae Ratification	25
Enterprise Q2.M2	20	-7	Ship damage GBZ
Calypso Q2.M2	5	-15	Gabriel Requisitions
Hood Q2.M2	10
Courageous Q2.M2	5
Cheron Q3.M1	5
Vigour Q3.M2	10
Hood Q3.M2	10
Enterprise Q3.M3	10
Gale Q3.M3	10
GBZ Q3.M3	5

I have 135.
+239 and -144

Night said:
Making it formal.

@OneirosTheWriter, what's the procedure on this situation?

Won't work that way. Yan-Ros personal shield generators are not human-compatible, and aren't designed with tech intended to trend that way. You squishy terrans are not robust enough!

pheonix89 · Mar 4, 2017

Did the Constellations eat a stealth nerf at some point? I could have sworn they used to have C4 and I think D 4. Looking right now at the front page I'm seeing C3 S2 H2 L2 P2 D3 and wondering why they even exist because a Centaur is C3 S2 H2 L2 P2 D2 and uses about half the crew.

Edit: Nope, I just repressed the terribleness.

Forgothrax · Mar 4, 2017

pheonix89 said:
Did the Constellations eat a stealth nerf at some point? I could have sworn they used to have C4 and I think D 4. Looking right now at the front page I'm seeing C3 S2 H2 L2 P2 D3 and wondering why they even exist because a Centaur is C3 S2 H2 L2 P2 D2 and uses about half the crew.

Edit: Nope, I just repressed the terribleness.

Centaur is 16 years newer, remember.

Nervos Belli · Mar 4, 2017

pheonix89 said:
Did the Constellations eat a stealth nerf at some point? I could have sworn they used to have C4 and I think D 4. Looking right now at the front page I'm seeing C3 S2 H2 L2 P2 D3 and wondering why they even exist because a Centaur is C3 S2 H2 L2 P2 D2 and uses about half the crew.

Edit: Nope, I just repressed the terribleness.

That's exactly why the first project we rushed out was a new cruiser.

MS-21H 'Hawke' · Mar 4, 2017

pheonix89 said:
Did the Constellations eat a stealth nerf at some point? I could have sworn they used to have C4 and I think D 4. Looking right now at the front page I'm seeing C3 S2 H2 L2 P2 D3 and wondering why they even exist because a Centaur is C3 S2 H2 L2 P2 D2 and uses about half the crew.

Edit: Nope, I just repressed the terribleness.

It's Ok man, this whole thing is why I tried to get everyone on board with the Constitution Refit(in which I feel very vindicated...even the bad events are better than they would have been with the Constie Refit).

Void Stalker · Mar 4, 2017

pheonix89 said:
Did the Constellations eat a stealth nerf at some point? I could have sworn they used to have C4 and I think D 4. Looking right now at the front page I'm seeing C3 S2 H2 L2 P2 D3 and wondering why they even exist because a Centaur is C3 S2 H2 L2 P2 D2 and uses about half the crew.

Edit: Nope, I just repressed the terribleness.

Hence why we pushed the Connie-B as a stopgap until we could get the Renissance out, still the cruiser refit option for the constellation will bump it to a C4 S3 H3 L3 P2 D4

Gear · Mar 4, 2017

I'm just glad we got as many ConnieBees as we did. I shudder to think of what would be happening now if we had gone with refit Constie's instead.

OneirosTheWriter · Mar 4, 2017

2313.Q4

You arrive at Starfleet Tactical Command unsure whether to be harrowed or buoyed by the last year. Two ratifications, the Treat of Celos, the throwing back of the Sydraxians, yes, but you've also had ships crippled and crew lost at a rate unseen since the Biophage rampaged through the Neutral Zone. It seems in fact that the long-foretold war is here, but now tucked away into the Gabriel Expanse in some facsimile of that great beast. Like if Death had a kid and it decided to play dress-up in dad's robes one day.

The Constitution-B is serving well, both in a combative role, and as a garrison, outperforming the Constellation on all fronts. The defeat of the USS Saratoga was frustrating, but such things are to be expected. They acquitted themselves well at Deva. Even so, the new era, the rather literal 'Renaissance' of your shipbuilding is mere months away. The USS Renaissance and her sisters will fulfill your General Cruiser functions far into the future. The Constellation has given you thirty years of service, and you are certain this will give you thirty more.

==============

Current Required Ship Roles, as identified by Starfleet Tactical:

Heavy Explorer
Component Needs: FYM-Capable, need Explorer Frame, Medium+ Operations Frame
Stat Needs: Must have 5+ Science, Presence, 4+ Combat.
Scale Needs: No max-size or crew, minimum 2.2mt.
Intention: To conduct Five-Year-Missions, be capable of extended unsupported missions, handle severe science anomalies and conduct high-level diplomacy.

General Cruiser
Component Needs: Cruiser Frame
Stat Needs: 4+ stat average, minimum 4 Defence
Scale Needs: 1-1.5mt,
Intention: To form the backbone of the fleet when in battle, and to be the first-line of response to sector events.

Garrison Frigate
Component Needs: Frigate Frame, < 80SR
Stat Needs: Minimum 2+ all stats, 3+ Science, Presence
Scale Needs: Any
Intention: Bolster ability to protect and manage sectors within Federation space. Designed to be capable of responding competently to most events.

Combat Frigate
Component Needs: Frigate Frame, Large Tactical Frame, < 60 SR, +1 Torpedoes
Stat Needs: 3+ Combat, 2+ Defence, 2+ Shield
Scale Needs: Any
Intention: Bolster fleet's ability to compete in combat.

Science Frigate
Component Needs: Frigate Frame, Medium+ Operations Frame, Small Tactical Frame, < 100 SR
Science Lab, LR+Nav Sensors
Stat Needs: 5+ Science, 3+ Presence, Max 2 Combat
Scale Needs: Any
Intention: A ship to replace the Oberth as a more capable, all around platform for science and short-range exploration.

=========================================

What type of ship do you believe Starfleet is currently lacking?
[ ][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]

[ ][ROLES] Suggest something else

[ ][ROLES] A Garrison Cruiser to cheaply anchor home sectors
[ ][ROLES] A Light Explorer to supplement the Excelsiors
[ ][ROLES] A high-presence courier escort
[ ][ROLES] A large science escort to phase out Oberths
[ ][ROLES] Update the Combat Escort requirements (+2 Militarisation)

Roles that you decide upon will be added to the list of available ship design projects that you can request from the Council. Roles need to have some concrete sign of being filled within five years to avoid Council action.

==========================================

Wargames

Pick a Scenario you would like to see occur:

[ ][WG] A 1v1 with any two Ships, including member world ships (Nominate two ships)
[ ][WG] A 2v2 with any Ships, including member world ships, (Nominate ships)
[ ][WG] A Fleet Battle (Cost 2pp/Explorer, 1pp/Cruiser, 1pp/2 Escorts)

==========================================

Member World Coordination Office

Ships Commissioned

Andor - 1 Hospital Ship
Vulcan - 1 Miranda Refit
Tellar - 3 Miranda Refit
Human - 1 Miranda Refit

Ships Commenced
Vulcan - 1 Miranda Refit
Tellar - 1 Miranda Refit

As a word of concern, civilian and auxiliary shipbuilding in Orion Union Space has nearly ground to a halt because of the disruptions they are experiencing. Most of the major shipbuilding firms have been found to have major Syndicate infiltration, if not explicit involvement, and four of nine berths currently lie empty. It is hoped that Rigellian intervention will be able to restart production under new companies without Syndicate influence.

MS-21H 'Hawke' · Mar 4, 2017

I'm going to let the rest go to people who know the minutae of our situation better than us, but I do have one request/vote:

[X][WG] A 1v1 with any two Ships, including member world ships (Constitution-B VS the Amarki Cruiser[The closest analogue to the Cardassian cruiser I can find])

Gingganz · Mar 4, 2017

[ ][ROLES] A large science escort to phase out Oberths

This seems like the obvious choice. The question is, will we be ready for Project Kepler within 5 years?
I don't really have any opinion on the Wargames, except I don't want to pay pp.

pheonix89 · Mar 4, 2017

Are we going to be ready to start the Kepler project inside of five years?

MTB · Mar 4, 2017

Could we use the wargames to ascertain the efficiency/deficiency of doctrines?

pheonix89 · Mar 4, 2017

@OneirosTheWriter
What preciely does
[ ][ROLES] Update the Combat Escort requirements (+2 Militarisation)
do?
We already had a Combat Escort option project at snakepit.

UberJJK · Mar 4, 2017

Gingganz said:
[ ][ROLES] A large science escort to phase out Oberths

This seems like the obvious choice. The question is, will we be ready for Project Kepler within 5 years?

I'm not sure it's actually needed. Compare the Garrison Escort:

OneirosTheWriter said:
Garrison Escort
Component Needs: Escort Frame, < 80SR
Stat Needs: Minimum 2+ all stats, 3+ Science, Presence
Scale Needs: Any
Intention: Bolster ability to protect and manage sectors within Federation space. Designed to be capable of responding competently to most events.

to current Kepler designs such as:

Kepler [933kt]
C1 S7 H2 L3 P5 D4
Cost[95br, 75sr, 2 years & 4 months], Crew [O-2, E-2, T-2]

Kepler [927kt]
C2 S7 H2 L3 P5 D4
Cost[95br, 80sr, 2 years & 4 months], Crew [O-2, E-2, T-3]

and you'll see it's just as accurate to call the Kepler a Garrison Escort as it is to call it a Large Science Escort.

HearthBorn · Mar 4, 2017

OneirosTheWriter said:
University of Betazed: 2310s Affiliates Research

+6
44 / 60 Recruiting Campaign III (Increase Academy intake from Federation Affiliates to 0.15 each)
34 / 60 Diplomatic Analysis III (+2 to the -Annual- Diplomacy Rolls)
34 / 60 Public Media I (Leads to further tech)

OneirosTheWriter said:
University of Betazed: 2310s Affiliates Research

+8

41 / 60 Recruiting Campaign III (Increase Academy intake from Federation Affiliates to 0.15 each)
41 / 60 Diplomatic Analysis III (+2 to the -Annual- Diplomacy Rolls)
36 / 60 Public Media I (Leads to further tech)

OneirosTheWriter said:
To Xenopsychology - by dual Ratifications - 2310s Diplomacy, 2310s Affiliates Research

@OneirosTheWriter , I think something happened to the results to the calculations above. We should be at 52, 41, and 41, just from the +8, not including the floating +5, and whatever the ratification bonus was.

Night · Mar 4, 2017

pheonix89 said:
@OneirosTheWriter
What preciely does
[ ][ROLES] Update the Combat Escort requirements (+2 Militarisation)
do?
We already had a Combat Escort option project at snakepit.

I'm not Oneiros, but IIRC it lets us get rid of the Large Tac Frame which is apparently not actually that helpful.

lbmaian · Mar 4, 2017

Void Stalker said:
Hence why we pushed the Connie-B as a stopgap until we could get the Renissance out, still the cruiser refit option for the constellation will bump it to a C4 S3 H3 L3 P2 D4

This cruiser refit of +5 stat increments is good [C4 S3 H3 L3 P2 D4], but it's still treading the line between the benefits & costs of refitting the Constellations vs replacing them with Renaissances. The problem is that they're going to be competing in the same ship role: combat cruisers. And even upgraded, I'd rather send Miranda-As to the fight instead, since crew casualties on Constellation-As are going to be horrendous.

What I'd prefer would be to refit the Constellation into more of a garrison cruiser. If custom refit gets implemented in the design spreadsheet in time by 2315*, I'd like to try an alternate +5 stat increment refit. Something like: C4 S3 H2 L3 P3 D4. So slightly better than a Centaur-A and more geared for events rather than combat.

* I say 2315 and not 2314, because Starfleet still has a backlog of Miranda-As to refit that's taking up the 1mt berths alongside the Renaissance, while the new Excelsior-A refit is going to use up plenty of the 2.5-3mt berths. The member fleets haven't finished upgrading all their Mirandas yet either IIRC. So getting the Constellation refit next year isn't necessary.

Intelligence update comments:

OneirosTheWriter said:
Yrillian Fleet Strength Report

It is very difficult to get accurate numbers on the Yrillian fleet, given their highly noncentralised structure. We have produced figures based on what we believe a full muster of Yrillian workgangs could produce, but such an assembly would be extremely difficult to achieve.

20~30 Escort type small armed ships
4 Old Model Yrillian Light Cruisers
6~10 Carryalls
3 Defenders that belong directly to the government

That last line made me laugh out loud. Exhibit Z in how weak the Yrillian central government is.

The rest of the Yrillian "fleet" is surprisingly large. Well, perhaps not so surprising, since I think we've destroyed at least 10 Yrillian-built escorts over the past decade.

I don't recall an encounter between a Yrillian escort and Miranda or Centaur, unless the captured/destroyed Orion Syndicate escorts include Yrillian ones. The only ones I remember are Excelsiors, mostly the EC ones, taking on Yrillian escorts, and in fact in one case, capturing one (that ultimately led to the Ghost & Whispers crisis).

It's probably safe to say that if they're around the same tonnage of a Miranda or Centaur, they're about equivalent in capability: around C3 H2-3 L2-3? But if they're 500kt or less, which I suspect is the case, than I'd expect C2 H1-2 L1-2.

I'm not sure what the distinction between an "escort" and a "carryall" is, but the latter implies an armed transport (armed because it's in the military fleet section). Probably C2-3.

Light cruisers are anywhere in tonnage from 700kt to 1000kt or even a bit more than that. If they're old like the Constellation, then I'd expect C3-4 for them.

"Defenders" sound more modern, and the government must have at least some way to prevent being raided at one or two work gangs' whim, so I expect these ships to outclass a standard Yrillian escort.

Altogether, even at the low end, that's at least 70 C.

30~40 Civilian Ships
20~25 Cargo Ships
~10 Freighters
3 Passenger
4 Engineering
2 Prospector
1 Colony Ship
1 Hospital Ship
3 Research Cruisers

Now THIS is impressive. That's arguably larger than each of the Federation members' and affiliates' civilian/auxiliary fleets. At the very least, they have the most civilian ships, and potentially tie the Apiata for cargo ship count.

Estimation of Cardassian Fleet presence in the Gabriel Expanse

2 Kaldar
6~7 Jaldun
7~9 Escort Grade

Void Stalker said:
2 Kaldar -Cruiser 5C 3S 4H 4L 3P 5D
6~7 Jaldun Cruiser 4C 3S 4H 4L 3P 4D
7~9 Escort Grade Takaaki is their best escort and is 4C 1S 3H 3L 1P 2D
So max C is 74 for the Cardassian force in the GBZ

That's a large fleet

Assuming the Sydraxians are temporarily out of the fight, and the Dylaarians don't get pulled in yet, that's up against:
1 Excelsior [Blooded]: C7 S6 H5 L6 P6 D6
1 Excelsior: C6 S5 H4 L5 P5 D6
4 Constitution-B: C5 S3 H3 L4 P3 D5
1 Miranda-A: C3 S1 H1 L2 P1 D2
1 Constellation [Blooded]: C4 S3 H3 L3 P3 D3
2 Centaur-A: C3 S3 H2 L3 P3 D3
2 Little Queenship: C4 S4 H2 L7 P6 D7
4 Stinger: C4 S2 H1 L4 P2 D4
2 Forager: C2 S6 H1 L2 P2 D3
1 Riala: C6 S4 H5 L7 P5 D6
1 Hebrinda: C4 S2 H3 L4 P3 D3
4 "Escorts" - possibilities:
- Brieca (4 available, each one typically escorting a Hebrinda): C2 S2 H3 L3 P1 D2
- Calac (4 available): C2 S2 H2 L2 P1 D2
- Centaur-A (they do have 3 now I think, with 2 more in construction)
- I'll estimate 1 Calac (escorting Hebrinda), 1 Brieca (durable fighter), and 2 Centaur-A (firepower and science)

Altogether, using the naive sum of stats method we've been using: 24 ships, C93 S76 H57 L94 P71 D97

If it comes down to a winner-takes-all decisive battle, we'll still outweigh the Cardassians.

Of course, if the Sydraxians return with what they retreated with (2 Kalindrax, 2 Hasque), that's an additional 14 C for the Cardassian side, which is nearly the same as the Federation GBZ total.

OneirosTheWriter said:
Auxiliary
5? Cargo Ship
4? Freighter
1 Passenger
4? Engineer
3? Prospector
3? Colony Ship

In comparison, Federation auxiliaries:
1 "Civilian" Ship (Starfleet Intelligence)
12 Cargo Ships (6 Apiata Bumblebee)
4 Freighter (note: Apiata Bumblebee and others probably play double duty here as hinted at in MWCO report)
0 Passenger
6 Engineering (4 Apiata Worker Bee)
2 Prospector (note: Apiata Worker Bee and Forager probably play double duty here as hinted at in MWCO report)
3 Colony Ship (1 Apiata)
1 Hospital Ship
Amarki contribution unclear at the moment

pheonix89 · Mar 4, 2017

UberJJK said:
I'm not sure it's actually needed. Compare the Garrison Escort:

to current Kepler designs such as:

Kepler [933kt]
C1 S7 H2 L3 P5 D4
Cost[95br, 75sr, 2 years & 4 months], Crew [O-2, E-2, T-2]

Kepler [927kt]
C2 S7 H2 L3 P5 D4
Cost[95br, 80sr, 2 years & 4 months], Crew [O-2, E-2, T-3]

and you'll see it's just as accurate to call the Kepler a Garrison Escort as it is to call it a Large Science Escort.

Garrison Escort is the Centaur.

Science Escort is the Oberth. Once of these is not like the other.

Steven Kodaly · Mar 4, 2017

OneirosTheWriter said:
Captain's Log, USS Intrepid, Stardate 25234.9

We detected a fresh distress signal in Vulcan space, but it wasn't in space that anyone was known to be travelling in. The signal itself is not one that anyone recognises, and my science officer is trying to decrypt it as we approach. However, it will take considerable time.

[Intrepid responds, but unable to decipher warning in time to warn USS Sappho]

So, was this signal sent out by the Mentat, or by someone who got in his way?

Voting!

I'd rather wait to finish the research project to design the Ambassador before declaring we need more new classes of ship.

[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]

MS-21H 'Hawke' said:
but I do have one request/vote:

While the gamemaster established that a Constitution-B vs. A Jaldun was roughly an even match, I can certainly believe that Starfleet would be interested in running simulations of their own, so why not? If nothing else, I think the Amarki will find it fun.

[X][WG] A 1v1 with any two Ships, including member world ships (Constitution-B VS the Amarki Hebrinda)

Void Stalker · Mar 4, 2017

[X][ROLES] A large science escort to phase out Oberths
[X][WG] A 1v1 with any two Ships, including member world ships (Constitution-B VS the Amarki Hebrinda)

I think we will start the Kepler in five years and it gives us a good replacement for the Oberth

To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

a thirsty squirrel

Wants to be Seven Of Nine

Widow Null

Cabal Core Commander

Wants to be Seven Of Nine

Not Going Gently

Don't think this means you've won!

Set Moon to Ramming Speed!

Cabal Core Commander

Wants to be Seven Of Nine

Wants to be Seven Of Nine

Widow Null

a thirsty squirrel

Wants to be Seven Of Nine