Combat is not meant to be safe, guys. It certainly isn't meant to be painless.

Edit: This is part of the intent, really. Four years go into an explorer, three into a cruiser, and you can lose one in a day. Every time it comes down to battle it is meant to be a crisis.

The Federation is dangerous because it owns the peace, but can also absorb losses like no one else.

Not because it can scour the battlefield of all before them. When you fight, I think will not be bloodless.

This is why the Caitians and Dawiar danced around each other for two years rather than commit to a battle that could lose the war in a day.

And really, we've gotten off easy so far. All of our ships have been damaged, but repairable. We haven't actually lost a ship to a battle since... the Polaris I think?

Of course, we picked Rear Admiral Ainsworth, who is very much not about dancing around for two years. She's very much about doing what it takes to end the fighting as fast as possible, even if it means more pain in the short run.
 
Something that hasn't been acknowledged much (if at all) is that despite the horrendous casualties, the Saratoga actually succeeded in her mission. She protected the cargo ship, whether by driving the Jaldun off to be repaired, or by allowing time for the cargo ship to escape to safety during the battle.

If it wasn't for the casualties, this month would've actually been pretty decent for us. A cruiser may have gotten severely damaged, but the enemy is also out action for at least several months. We obtained enough resources to likely cover the repair costs. We still got some pp and rp.

It's really the casualties that stung the most. Battle at Deva IX + this skirmish (whatever it's being called) now have casualties exactly half that of the Biophage crisis. 18 vs 36.
 
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... is the Cheron going to be that one little plucky ship that is constantly getting shit done in the background?
She already is.

It does show the importance of going in with overwhelming force. We had some bad luck with the Sydraxians, but it was still a victory because we massively outgunned them.

As a General Forrest once said, you want to "get there firstest with the mostest".
Agreed; this is why I've been pushing for shoveling in as many heavies as we can into the Gabriel Expanse. An Excelsior would probably have won this fight, but by contrast a Centaur, Constellation, or a Miranda (including Yukikaze) would very possibly have been destroyed here. We could have wound up losing the escort AND the cargo ship AND failing to destroy the Jaldun in return- a clean sweep for the bad guys.

Sister Sara did her job, where a weaker ship would have been blown to shrapnel.

o7

I know war is unpredictable and everything, but Jesus H. Christ, the Starfleet's performance is just outright appalling.
We WON at Deva IX, exactly what would you consider "not appalling?" For us to literally never take damage, never lose or nearly-lose a ship while inflicting massive losses on the enemy at every turn?

Just how Mary Sue would our fleet have to be, in order to upgrade its performance to 'satisfactory' in your eyes?

>USS Saratoga

Of fucking course. I have personal reason to hate the bloody name; now it just makes my mission to permanently scrub it out of the face the universe personal.
Whyfore you hate Sara? :(

If you compare hitpower rolled and damage actually dealt to shield strength it looks like both sides had +5% damage, so the Cardassians apparently have identical intel and research bonuses.

Looking at the battle last month hitpower to damage ratio was 1.1 for both sides. That doesn't really seem to make sense? Why would it be identical in both cases? Maybe the bonuses for one side are accidentally also used for the other, or the variable for the second side aliases the one for the first and both sides get both sets of bonuses?
Those are all possible, and should be looked into, but it's also possible that the enemy is just working about exactly as hard as we are and has racked up about exactly the same number of bonuses...

We may have already killed the only one in existence; I'm not entirely sure. Did Gul Miran definitively tell us whether there was ever more than one in the first place?

there is also the fact that every combat log we have seen running the new system has us taking it in the teeth. Even the battle we won had us taking far heavyier losses than we would have under the old system.
I see no reason to assume we wouldn't have taken heavy damage to one explorer and one escort in the process of refighting the Battle of Deva IX under the old combat engine. Maybe we wouldn't have, maybe we would have, but we hardly got our "teeth kicked in." The Sydraxians had three ships straight-up blown out of space; our ships are going to be fine after repairs.

The only really nasty thing that hit us was disproportionate crew losses aboard the Endurance. Thing is... while part of that was due to 'critical hits' that killed a lot of our crew after we started taking hull damage to the Endurance, that wasn't the only factor in play. We also took heavy crew losses because our explorers are very crew-heavy compared to their weight in escorts or even cruisers. That is not a new problem, we've known about that for a long time. It's repeatedly been presented as an argument for building combat escorts, for instance.

[EDIT: I've actually had people pooh-pooh me and tell me that we should expect to take heavier crew losses aboard combat escorts because they die more easily. Looking at how many of our crew losses at Deva IX were from a single embattled explorer, I find that somewhat amusing in hindsight]

And really, we've gotten off easy so far. All of our ships have been damaged, but repairable. We haven't actually lost a ship to a battle since... the Polaris I think?
For that matter, Polaris was eaten by the event system, just like Lion or Miracht. As far as I can remember Oneiros never broke out the combat engine at all.
 
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I think the main thing is this system seems more opaque. With the old system I could understand how it works and draw analysis from the combat. With the new one it's harder to tell if it's a problem with our ship designs or the RNG did not like us for that battle
 
I think we might want more granularity in crew numbers. Multiply all the values by 10.
 
Okay, imagine 20% of a crew dies on a ship with 2-2-2 and 5-5-5 crew, respectively. With no fractions, the former ship takes no crew damage, whike the latter ship takes 1 crew damage.
Thing is, it LOOKS like the combat engine basically just rolls dice every time a ship takes a hit and goes "does the ship lose a point of crew, Y/N."

Or if that isn't already being done, it would be easy to implement.
 
Omake - Space is Wide IV - nocarename
AN: Truly, it has been too long. *slaps up ~1,300 words, runs away*
Space is Wide IV (Float Like a Butterfly, Ship Like a Bee)
-0-
=Tipperary - Tipperary Outpost=

Tipperary had what Starfleet listed as: Outpost, Key Logistical Assets. That really meant a small space station, a medium sized stack of sensors and communications anteana and a large, large supply of spare parts and empty warehouse space.

There were also a few areas that weren't entirely 'fleet. Bars, a small arboretum, and some rooms that could be booked for meetings that wouldn't clog up the foot traffic. This room wasn't the largest, the newest or even the most discrete. It was, however, large enough, clean enough and discrete enough. As traders, everyone appreciated the delicate balancing act it represented. It also had access to one of the bars for refreshments.

Hizzar was an Apiatan Queen, a minor one, but still a queen and she looked at the assemblage of other Federation traders. A Rigelian male, a Caitan woman, two humans, one male and one female, and an Armakian woman.

"You wish," she says, just to check, "To invite me to enter an order of chivalry. A trade based order of chivalry."

"A merchant focused one," agreed the Rigelian, "Knight Captain Meechum of the Golfito?"

The human woman quirked a small grin.

"Gee thanks Praavov. I'm the one here who's been a member the longest," she said, "So I know the history. Before the Armakians were part of the Federation, before even there was a Federation, there was the Order of the Red Paperclip."

Hizzar raised an eyebrow at this. The naming was, so far as she could tell, not Armakian. The degree of flippancy seemed more Tellarite or human.

Kate Meechum continued, "During the Eugenics Wars, the Bell Riots, the Post Atomic Horror and everything else that humans did to themselves before we managed to reach out to the stars, things were bad. They usually are when you've managed to nuke yourself that many times. No one trusted money, or most of the governments that still existed, by that point, but barter still worked. And that's what the Red Paperclips did. They bartered and scrounged and traded and they kept enough lights on and enough things moving that civilization didn't quite collapse.

"When First Contact came between Earth and Vulcan and things started to improve, the Red Paperclips were out on the Boomer ships pushing holes in vacuum for United Earth and anyone who needed a cargo to get from here to there. Nothing with formal membership rolls, just bonds of history. It stayed like that for generations.

"Then, I think by mistake, we ended up on a list of Knightly Orders that was passed to the Armakian diplomatic service. Things escalated, and here we are. Picking up the slack as the Federation puts itself through an interstellar puberty and picking small shooting wars with at least three flavours of pirates and opportunists."

The Armakian, one steped forward, a small bracelet set jingling, "Will you, Hizzar, join with us?"

"Will you ship the things that need to move for building?" Rrierr, the Caitain asked, her tail slowly waving from side to side.

"Will you ship the things that need to move for fighting?" asked Praavov, the Rigelian.

"Will you ship the things that need to move for talking?" asked Laubarc, the Armakian.

"Will you ship the things that need to move to reach out further yet?" asked the human who hadn't spoken before.

Hizzar drew in a breath and looked from face to face. Clearly this was a ceremony and ceremonies required certain words to be spoken in response to a question like this. But she didn't know them. There had been no lessons, no briefings, no hints.

And there, in the ultraviolet, almost too high for her to see and well beyond any of the other eyes in the room, she saw her words programmed into the bar's menu board.

"I'll ship what pays and I'll ship what's needed and I'll never forget that the best pay doesn't come in credits or gems. It comes in better tomorrows."

"Then be welcome new friend," announced Kate, "We may never cross paths again, for space is wide, but know that things improve. Things get better, but only when we work together and as part of the Order of the Red Paperclip we are all working together for a better tomorrow."

There was a beat of silence.

"And now," announced Praavov, "Drinks."

-0-

Hizzar looked dubiously at the spiraling bottle full of some strange thick fluid resting in place of pride on the drinks table.

"Kanar," offered the human man.

"Pardon?"

"I'm Sam and it's Kanar. It's Cardassian. Try the Romulan Ale instead, that stuff is foul."

"Then why even have it?" she asked.

"Because it's rare. And there's nothing like bragging with booze for most Federation traders."

"This, none of this, was covered in the diplomatic briefings or the cultural summaries or any of the talks with the Federation Diplomatic Service."

"The Diplomatic Service works very hard to keep the Federation in one piece instead of flying apart," said Sam, "And frankly, the cultural summaries have to focus on the planetary societies. There's more of them, unless you're the Kadeshi, and more than enough to occupy anyone interested for three Vulcan lifetimes without going into the spacer cultures."

"So what do we do then?"

"Ask friends? I know you got the codes for the Order's annotated copies of the Federation Sailing Directions, those are incredibly useful. But I know you already know the most important trick."

"Oh? And what is that?"

"Keep your eyes open," said Sam, glancing toward the menu board and taking a mouthful of his bright orange drink, "Time to circulate. You should meet everyone you can. I'm just a Squire, not nearly senior enough to monopolize the newest member."

-0-

Sam Jones watched the newest member head off to politic with the Praavov and Rrierr and relaxed. He'd met his obligations and now he could slide out and back to his ship-

"Ow. Ow, ow ow!" - Or he could follow the duranium hard grip on his ear. That was a good option too.

"Cap'n Kate," he said, because really there weren't a lot of people who would keep him from ducking out of a party around. And of the ones that would, the only one who'd grab him like this in the sector was his old captain.

"What the hell were you thinking flying out near Cardassian space at all?" hissed Kate as she dragged him into a booth for questioning.

"Apiatan space, now," said Sam because he never had learned when to shut up. Kate dug her finger nails in. "Owie."

"Samuel Timycha Jones, I'm well aware that the Great Bird of the Galaxy protects children fools and ships named Enterprise, and that you're still covered under the first two clauses, but what the hell were you thinking!"

"That it was a peaceful run out to a friendly race's territory. And it was! Right up until the Caitans and the Dawiar decided the what space really needed was more radiation and explosions. And when I got out of it, I headed here. The safest place in Federation space."

"Tipperary. What is the quadrant coming to?"

Sam shrugged at his old Captain. "Change, mostly. I'm sure there's a Vulcan or three who'd tell us it's good for us and promotes growth."

"Next election I'm voting Development," grumbled Kate. "Whatever. You look after yourself, all right? I don't have enough old crew around that I can afford to loose any."

"Safe as houses in deep space, just like you," promised Sam, poorly. Space had never been safe, just home for a hardy few.

"Good enough. Now come on. Take your own advice and network. You can be antisocial between star systems."

Sam sighed and finished his glass. "Aye, aye Cap'n."
 
"That it was a peaceful run out to a friendly race's territory. And it was! Right up until the Caitans and the Dawiar decided the what space really needed was more radiation and explosions. And when I got out of it, I headed here. The safest place in Federation space."

Well, until the Klingons and the Romulans scream and leap at each other, I guess. Then it'll get all kinds of exciting.
 
Agreed; this is why I've been pushing for shoveling in as many heavies as we can into the Gabriel Expanse. An Excelsior would probably have won this fight, but by contrast a Centaur, Constellation, or a Miranda (including Yukikaze) would very possibly have been destroyed here. We could have wound up losing the escort AND the cargo ship AND failing to destroy the Jaldun in return- a clean sweep for the bad guys.

Well if we had an Excelsior for guard every auxiliary, I'd love that, but we can't have nice things in life :p

I'd prefer 3 Miranda-As over a single Excelsior here, especially for auxiliary escort duty. Even if these smaller ships had to pair up for skirmishes, that's still more efficient than an Excelsior that can't be everywhere. And with sufficient sensor coverage and ship numbers, escorts become truly fungible in their duties.

I think the main thing is this system seems more opaque. With the old system I could understand how it works and draw analysis from the combat. With the new one it's harder to tell if it's a problem with our ship designs or the RNG did not like us for that battle

That's a UI problem. In the old combat logs, we got some measure of progress every turn (the fleet combat totals) along with a progress summary every several turns. We just need something equivalent in the newer combat logs.
 
I think the Renissance cannot get here soon enough, it is tougher than a Connie-B so it should win most match ups with a Jaldun, probably a 60-40 ratio maybe a bit better
 
Well, until the Klingons and the Romulans scream and leap at each other, I guess. Then it'll get all kinds of exciting.
Sam has, among his many issues, a lack of foresight. I'm sure this surprises no one.
Besides, maybe he'll be up by Rigel by then. Or the Orion Union will have calmed down and looking for a trader than meets Federation security bonding requirements. Who knows!
 
I think the Renissance cannot get here soon enough, it is tougher than a Connie-B so it should win most match ups with a Jaldun, probably a 60-40 ratio maybe a bit better

See you in... oh, about 3 years exactly from now in-game, accounting for Chen's bonus. That's when we'll actually have Renaissances plural, beyond a single curiosity.

Sam has, among his many issues, a lack of foresight. I'm sure this surprises no one.
Besides, maybe he'll be up by Rigel by then. Or the Orion Union will have calmed down and looking for a trader than meets Federation security bonding requirements. Who knows!

I wouldn't mind seeing him get Coreward in future episodes. Maybe a Licori mentat can hire him to haul some... things.
 
I think the Renissance cannot get here soon enough, it is tougher than a Connie-B so it should win most match ups with a Jaldun, probably a 60-40 ratio maybe a bit better
The combination of Combat 5 Shields 5 is going to be particularly helpful. On average a Jaldun should do two damage or a little more each round, so an extra 10 HP of shields translates as being able to tank (on average) four or five more hits before shields fail. Maybe more, if shield regeneration rates scale with overall shield values.
 
I wonder what the Gul of that Jaldun is thinking and saying right now. Do they recognize that they got lucky against a very tough opponent, and are they able to say that to their leadership? They should have some leeway by being hero of the hour, and no known compromise by charismatic Starfleet officers. (Or maybe their Helmsman is very damn good?)
 
...I think this may actually be the first time in Cardassian history (that they know of) where a Cardassian ship straight-out defeated a Federation ship in open battle. All their prior direct encounters have been with Explorer Corps Excelsiors, and ended badly.

Yes, the freighter got away, yes they took some damage, but "you should see the other guy."

It would be utterly, utterly easy for the Cardassians to view this as a victory and promote Gul Whozit as a hero.
 
Yeah, I'd be expecting some lionization of the Gul in charge. This is basically their first big victory against the Federation.

However, I also expect Legate Dukat to be taking credit, since she is the one who made sure Connie-B's made it into the simulation.
 
Publicly the Cardies would hail it as a victory.

Privately they may be worried at how an old ship design at 1mt, even refit, nearly beat a 1.2mt Jaldun.

And probably hurrying along a Jaldun refit project.
 
So another lesson from this is that we should probably stop using "total C" as s shorthand for an enemy's combat strength, convenient though it is. We likely need some kind of calculation involving C, L, and H to get a true picture of relative fleet power. Anyone want to take a crack at it?
 
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