To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

[Simon_Jester]

Put a cloak onto carrier, increase torpedo size with a stage or something else that burns out fast, and launch a few hundred torpedos per ship onto the orbital infrastructure. Leave.

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And yet no one does that, MTB. Why do you think that is?

I have to wonder how practical that would be given how Federation torpedo launchers are like, Pretty Big.

On the other hand I can see possible benefits from having the AM store for your torpedos kept away from the ship.

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I wouldn't be surprised if antimatter is piped into the torpedoes just before they fire, given that we've had many many times when the warp core or antimatter storage threatened to explode, but almost no cases where the torpedo magazine threatens to explode.

That would also explain why there are basically NO ships in Star Trek that just spam huge salvoes of torpedoes MLRS-style; not only are the launchers too big, but you'd have to store the torpedoes pre-fueled for longer periods of time, and have dozens of antimatter 'pipelines' running all over the ship.

We don't see a ship with that kind of high-number torpedo launcher armament until the Akira, and the Akiras are pretty darn big ships that are heavily designed around their weapon systems.

 

[MTB]

And yet no one does that, MTB. Why do you think that is?

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It's boring to show on TV how Earth/Vulcan is dismantled by a bunch of freighters. Same reason you don't go maximum sublight, engage warp, and fly into a planet.

 

[Leila Hann]

And yet no one does that, MTB. Why do you think that is?

I wouldn't be surprised if antimatter is piped into the torpedoes just before they fire, given that we've had many many times when the warp core or antimatter storage threatened to explode, but almost no cases where the torpedo magazine threatens to explode.

That would also explain why there are basically NO ships in Star Trek that just spam huge salvoes of torpedoes MLRS-style; not only are the launchers too big, but you'd have to store the torpedoes pre-fueled for longer periods of time, and have dozens of antimatter 'pipelines' running all over the ship.

We don't see a ship with that kind of high-number torpedo launcher armament until the Akira, and the Akiras are pretty darn big ships that are heavily designed around their weapon systems.

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This could be an advantage of plasma torpedoes; not nearly as big a pain in the ass to load.

 

[Briefvoice]

I think the Yrillian report is going to have some major error bars on it, because figuring out who owns how many ships is gonna be difficult. Probably no more than 10-20% of combat ships are owned by the central government, and figuring out which side the various factions are going to support will be a nightmare for Starfleet Intelligence.

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Well if they can at least give us a rough range of total ships, then we can plan for "worst case". And truthfully, I expect that the Yrillians would act like most internally divided groups if faced with a real war. "I against my brothers. I and my brothers against my cousins. I and my brothers and my cousins against the world."

My point of disagreement is this "them" you refer to. These guys probably aren't working for the Yrillian government, and most likely are risking their lives for profit rather than loyalty to any higher cause.

The replaceability of their ships doesn't matter. The people on those ships are looking out for number one.

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True, but the sorts of people manning these ships seem quite willing to risk death or even accept death. This same quarter we had a corsair fight to the death rather than surrender against the Hood.

I suppose I should put it in terms of pumping out a few corsairs is probably nothing for a Yrillian shipyard, and there's always some work gang with more of an eye for glory than common sense willing to pay for it so they can go out and be real pirate adventurers.

 

[Gnarker]

[ ][APIATA] Intazzi Team - Grand Hive R&D
[ ][INDORIA] All Pyllix Geological Institute
Arguments on these have already been made, I believe.

Can't quite pick on the Intel thing, so here's my thoughts on the various options instead:

(Pick One Cardassian Tactical Report)
[ ][CARD] Cardassian Ship Analysis Report - Write in class
[ ][CARD] Cardassian Shipbuilding Report
[ ][REPORT] Cardassian Fleet Strength Report
[ ][REPORT] GBZ: Pick a faction to gain an estimate of fleet strength in the GBZ - Cardassians
[ ][REPORT] Ship Analysis Report: Kalindrax
[ ][REPORT] Shipyard Activity Report for: Sydraxians

We know that they've been stepping up construction lately, so getting a firmer bead on how big that increase is would be valuable and let us know exactly what we have to plan for in fleet deployments and stuff. On the other hand, their current strength in the GBZ seems to me at least somewhat less useful, as it'd tell what they have there right now, and not what they potentially could send.
A possible elaboration on that might be

[ ][REPORT] Current Fleet Commitments and Responsibilities - Cardassians

so we know how much of their fleet they could practically send, and how much they need to keep home to garrison and sit on their various vassals to prevent rebellion. @OneirosTheWriter?

Getting more knowledge on the capabilities of the Sydraxian Fleet may be worthwhile, seeing how they're mobilizing.


[ ][CARD] Cardassian Tactics Report (Gain +5% combat vs Cardassian fleets for the next 12 months)
[ ][REPORT] Sydraxian Tactics Report (2% combat bonus vs this fleet for 12months)

The Syddies are on the backfoot, our next big confrontation is likely with the Cardies. This, together with the 2% vs. 5% leads me to believe that Cardassian Tactics are pretty important, Sydraxian ones - for the moment - rather less so.


(Pick One Romlan Tactical Report)
[ ][ROM] Romulan Daljerra Cruiser Report
[ ][ROM] Romulan Ship Analysis Report - Write in
[ ][ROM] Romulan Shipbuilding Report
[ ][ROM] Romulan Shipyard Report
[ ][ROM] Romulan Fleet Strength Report
[ ][REPORT] Klingon Fleet Strength Report

Iirc, we're pretty up to date on the Romys, with the Daljerra the current item on the list.


(PIck up to three General Intel Reports)
[ ][REPORT] What would you like to see reported on?
[ ][REPORT] Romulan Diplomatic Posture Report
[ ][REPORT] Klingon Diplomatic Posture Report
[ ][REPORT] Cardassian Diplomatic Posture Report
[ ][REPORT] <Any> Diplomatic Posture Report

We know how the Klingons and Romulans think, and the recent Battle in Gabriel is possibly PR'd away as a fluke at first, and needs to be hammered home before having bigger effects. I think.


[ ][REPORT] GBZ: Determine what projects other factions are up to

Important.

[ ][REPORT] Yrillian Fleet Strength Report

As has been discussed already, important, but potentially bad results.


So my own current shortlist consists of:
[ ][CARD] Cardassian Shipbuilding Report
[ ][CARD] Cardassian Tactics Report (Gain +5% combat vs Cardassian fleets for the next 12 months)
[ ][ROM] Romulan Daljerra Cruiser Report
[ ][REPORT] Shipyard Activity Report for: Sydraxians
[ ][REPORT] GBZ: Determine what projects other factions are up to
[ ][REPORT] Yrillian Fleet Strength Report

Thoughts, anyone?

@Gnarker
Great, or at least good minds thinks alike. I posted that particular method of deniable diplomancy early.

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That may have been how I first got the idea into my head, come to think. It is a good (and fun) idea, in any case.

 

[Simon_Jester]

It's boring to show on TV how Earth/Vulcan is dismantled by a bunch of freighters. Same reason you don't go maximum sublight, engage warp, and fly into a planet.

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That's the lazy answer: "people in-setting are stupid and don't come up with obvious but effective tactics."

Can we have a more... interesting answer?

 

[MTB]

I wouldn't be surprised if antimatter is piped into the torpedoes just before they fire, given that we've had many many times when the warp core or antimatter storage threatened to explode, but almost no cases where the torpedo magazine threatens to explode.

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That's not a practical/feasible weapon system. Piping antimatter from secure storage into a warhead? ???

That's the lazy answer: "people in-setting are stupid and don't come up with obvious but effective tactics."

Can we have a non-lazy answer?

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You mean, can I take up the slack of the story writers? Given that the torpedos already use anti-matter, and that could be partially used for acceleration - no.
Maybe you can?

 

[Nix]

The Federation Datanet requires only 2310 Message Security, so it should be unlocked, too. It seems like a viable choice to me.

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That's just an editing error like there are many in the tech tree (copy paste from one of the 3 projects 2310 Message Security is actually the prequisite for), the correct prerequisite is 2310s Message Networking (as listed there). I know the error to be in the prerequisite listing and not the leads to listing for 4 reasons:

• It makes far more sense for Message Networking to be the prerequisite.
• It's not listed under 2310 Message Security either, so the alternative would require a mistake in two separate places.
• 2310 Message Security would have 5 follow up projects while 2310s Message Networking would have only one, which would make this an extremely untypical case. There is no other project that unlocks 5 projects.
  
• Most importantly, there is no plausible error that could have caused a mistaken listing under 2310s Message Networking it couldn't have been a copy and paste error and there wouldn't be anything the listing could plausibly have been confused with, but there two separate plausible errors that lead to listing Message Security instead of Message Networking, copy and paste as mentioned (very likely considering the high number of other copy and paste errors) and the terms are similar enough to be mistaken for each other.

 

[Void Stalker]

@Nix did you notice any other changes besides the construction ones, I know I was going to be pushing that line due to decreased construction time before it changed

 

[Briefvoice]

That's the lazy answer: "people in-setting are stupid and don't come up with obvious but effective tactics."

Can we have a more... interesting answer?

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I don't think you can. Genre storytelling always has places where if you poke the story too much, it collapses. Generally, the best solution is to distract the audience away from thinking about it at all rather than come up with convoluted explanations that will highly restrict your stories.

I think this to be case for how the existence of the supernatural can be kept secret in urban fantasy, and for how big fat targets like planets can defend against attacks by relativistic weapons in space opera.

You call it lazy; I call it making good storytelling decisions.

 

[Leila Hann]

That's the lazy answer: "people in-setting are stupid and don't come up with obvious but effective tactics."

Can we have a more... interesting answer?

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Do we know how fast impulse engines actually are?

 

[Nix]

@Nix did you notice any other changes besides the construction ones, I know I was going to be pushing that line due to decreased construction time before it changed

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I assume you noticed Propulsion now being a thing.

Lots of projects note the parts they unlock now and the defunct percentage reductions for ship stat costs meant for the old sheet etc are mostly gone. Most importantly the required projects for labs are listed now. The only project we haven't/aren't going to finish this year that is needed for T2 Labs is T2 LR Sensors, so that makes boosting generic team 1 significantly more attractive.

 

[random_npc]

I don't think you can. Genre storytelling always has places where if you poke the story too much, it collapses. Generally, the best solution is to distract the audience away from thinking about it at all rather than come up with convoluted explanations that will highly restrict your stories.

I think this to be case for how the existence of the supernatural can be kept secret in urban fantasy, and for how big fat targets like planets can defend against attacks by relativistic weapons in space opera.

You call it lazy; I call it making good storytelling decisions.

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which becomes a problem when doing a quest in one of those verses. That's when you start coming up with reasons why no one does something because the players might want to try it.

 

[Nervos Belli]

which becomes a problem when doing a quest in one of those verses. That's when you start coming up with reasons why no one does something because the players might want to try it.

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I don't think the Federation will be burning any planets soon, unless the Biophage makes a resurgence.

 

[Simon_Jester]

My answer for the 'relativistic defense' thing is a combination of ludicrously good Star Trek sensors plus warp drive on ships and for that matter runabouts.

There's no reason to assume that objects coming in on ballistic trajectories at relativistic speeds (let alone at warp) are somehow 'invisible.' If you launch a dummy or drone weapon system in this way, it will be predictably intercepted and destroyed far short of the target. The only ways around that are to make the weapon system so durable that it can tank ludicrous amounts of firepower, or to give it self-defense systems capable of fending off an interception attempt (the Cardassian drone 'missiles' we see in Voyager would qualify).

There are settings that would have problems with the RELATIVISTIC MEGAKILL VEHICLE SUPER HARD SCIENCE FICTION stuff some people have this weird tendency to drool over. Star Trek really isn't one of them.

That's not a practical/feasible weapon system. Piping antimatter from secure storage into a warhead? ???

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No more difficult than piping fuel into a missile from secure storage so you don't have fully fueled missiles lying around to explode and gut the ship from a lucky enemy shot with low-powered weapons.

There are good reasons to at least try to keep highly volatile materials stored in a central location, if the alternative is to have hundreds of antimatter bombs lying around your ships in random locations for months at a time.

You mean, can I take up the slack of the story writers? Given that the torpedos already use anti-matter, and that could be partially used for acceleration - no.

Maybe you can?

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My fundamental point here is that this pattern of "lol Star Trek should just do this thing I thought of in one minute and it would be super effective" is rather empty. It's a very common stance among parts of the fanbase, but it doesn't serve to enrich the setting, it's just a way of sneering at the stupidity of in-setting characters even when we have every reason to believe they should know what they're doing.

 

[Briefvoice]

So my own current shortlist consists of:
[ ][CARD] Cardassian Shipbuilding Report
[ ][CARD] Cardassian Tactics Report (Gain +5% combat vs Cardassian fleets for the next 12 months)
[ ][ROM] Romulan Daljerra Cruiser Report
[ ][REPORT] Shipyard Activity Report for: Sydraxians
[ ][REPORT] GBZ: Determine what projects other factions are up to
[ ][REPORT] Yrillian Fleet Strength Report
And one of:
[ ][REPORT] Ship Analysis Report: Kalindrax
[ ][REPORT] Shipyard Activity Report for: Sydraxians

Thoughts, anyone?

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I think you can drop a report on the Kalindrax from your list. The recent battle tells us their Combat, their Hull, and their Shields... does anyone really care what their Defense, Science, or Presence is? You also list Sydraxian shipyard activity twice.

which becomes a problem when doing a quest in one of those verses. That's when you start coming up with reasons why no one does something because the players might want to try it.

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Luckily our write-in options tend to be heavily circumscribed, so players don't get to try it because it's not even allowed as an option.

 

[Void Stalker]

I assume you noticed Propulsion now being a thing.

Lots of projects note the parts they unlock now and the defunct percentage reductions for ship stat costs meant for the old sheet etc are mostly gone. Most importantly the required projects for labs are listed now. The only project we haven't/aren't going to finish this year that is needed for T2 Labs is T2 LR Sensors, so that makes boosting generic team 1 significantly more attractive.

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Yeah I saw propulsion and the parts added, but those are easy to notice as opposed to a tech node changing to do something different

 

[aeqnai]

I personally have always interpreted warp as a propulsion system that would lend itself badly to RKKV'ing, because it doesn't necessarily impart momentum to the object moving with it. So a warp projectile would do damage only through its impulse speed plus the remaining drive antimatter+whatever warhead it's got. And warp drive is pretty 'loud' as propulsion systems go, sensors-wise.

(In any case, whether the reason is technobbabled, logicked out, or left unstated as genre convention, I do not want RKKVs in this story at all. It would seem wrong, somehow.)

 

[pbluekan]

The GBZ isn't a proxy war, it's a cabinet war. But with the Yrillians, there's a risk of a second front being opened.

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Thanks! I didn't know what the term was specifically.

I'm not so sure there's a risk of a second front being opened, unless they choose to attack the Federation proper. They are already involved in the GBZ under the Sydraxians, and we've seen how they're utilized. I doubt they could afford their own campaign in the GBZ and maintain security in the heir own space. Should they choose to up their piracy in Federation space as a 'second front,' we are more than prepared for them in the bordering sectors

 

[Leila Hann]

I personally have always interpreted warp as a propulsion system that would lend itself badly to RKKV'ing, because it doesn't necessarily impart momentum to the object moving with it. So a warp projectile would do damage only through its impulse speed plus the remaining drive antimatter+whatever warhead it's got. And warp drive is pretty 'loud' as propulsion systems go, sensors-wise.

(In any case, whether the reason is technobbabled, logicked out, or left unstated as genre convention, I do not want RKKVs in this story at all. It would seem wrong, somehow.)

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Like I asked earlier, how fast ARE impulse engines? It would be they, not the warp engines, that impart the energy for a KKV.

 

[Briefvoice]

Warp Tech:

• Yoyodyne [Skill 4 Warp Tech/Starship Construction] : 2320s EPS Safety [unchanged]

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We're locked in now, but I note that 2320's EPS Safety no longer gives a crew retention bonus. Now all it does is unlock new parts.

 

[Nix]

We're locked in now, but I note that 2320's EPS Safety no longer gives a crew retention bonus. Now all it does is unlock new parts.

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I didn't notice that, but maybe it's a mistake (could easily have happened while editing out defunct stat cost reductions etc)? The higher tiers still have the crew bonus (even T4 which clearly had the reliability bonus removed already), medical techs still have it, and it would be more than a bit odd to nerf techs we already started researching even though the original version would still fit in fine. @OneirosTheWriter?

 

[Void Stalker]

Now that we can be reasonably sure what teams are going to be available I can finally prepare a research plan.

Starship Construction:

• Office of Naval Architecture [Skill 3 Fleet Design/Starship Construction]: 2310s Starship Frames [complete] -> 2310s Starship Durability
• San Francisco Fleetyards [Skill 4 Explorer Design/Starship Construction]: 2310s Explorer - Science [complete] -> TASK [CONSTRUCTION]

Weapons:

• Weapons Fabrication Division [Skill 3 Weapons/Starship Design]: Early ToC Weapons [complete] -> 2310s Phaser Development
• Generic Team 2: 2310s Explorer - Engineering [complete] -> 2310s Torpedo Development

Communications:

• Federation Broadcast Service [Skill 3 Communication/Xenopsychology]: 2310s Communications [complete] -> TASK [FBS]

Minerals:

• All Pyllix Geological Institute [Skill 2 Minerals/Sensors]: [new] -> TASK [GEOLOGY]

Propulsion:

• Intazzi Team - Grand Hive R&D [Skill 3 Propulsion/Escort Design]: [new] -> 2320s Impulse Drive

Ship Design:

• Utopia Planitia [Skill 5 Cruiser/Explorer Design]: 2310s Explorer Combat [complete] -> Ambassador Project

Escort Design:

• 40 Eridani A [Skill 4 Escort Design/Warp Tech]: 2310s WarpCores [complete] -> 2310s Escort - Science

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Starship Construction-
Looking at this we may want to put the San Fran Fleetyards on Starship Durability, if I calculated that right it will finish in 3 years with 1 boost (we get +2 from one of our admirals so it gives 10 points a turn) and that unlocks SIF and warp core ejection now, plus individual techs that help, like the one that reduces combat loss from damage, the one the decreases chance of warp core breach and escape pods to reduce crew lost on destroyed ship. ONA will then take 5 years for 2320 construction technique or 6 for lightweight frames. San Fran would be 5 or 6 for lightweight frames with no way to figure out which as it depends on where inspirations fall. ONA though would take 3 to 4 with no way to know which for Durability.

Weapons-
Changes seem good, we only have two techs and I would rather get phasers done first.

Communications-
Comms we have two teams on Xenopsych already, one of which is our best team (Spock who hits level 6 this year). I prefer keeping two teams per area as they all have good techs. Of the ones unlocked, Fleet Comms has this: (+1 to ships that can respond to an incident), which if I am reading right allows an extra ship to respond to events.

Minerals-
I would rather have the team run onto the BR path to proceed done the tech that increase chance of mining colonies, more so since with colony cores and other techs they give us bonuses beyond just BR. Extra RP and PP for each colony are great and help us run max teams and boosts

Propulsion-
This one I would like those doing ship designs to weigh in on what part they want upgraded the most, Impulse Engines, Warp Nacelles or Fuel ad Matter Storage since the three nodes unlock t3 of those parts.

Ship Design-
Easy choice, best explorer team goes onto the Ambassador to get them done sooner

Escort Design-
Agreed on this, escort- science path has a SR discount tech in each level and that seems to be our shortage between SR and BR, plus Kepler is currently our next goal after the Ambassador.

I do think we need to figure out when we want to start the Kepler along with replacement combat/generalist escorts. That will help with some of the choices, like if we want to go Frames before Construction Techniques to unlock new frames to use in designs.

 

[Nervos Belli]

Hey, I was just looking at Cheron, and I'm pretty sure her stats are lower than they should be. Her stats are all +1 over a Green Constitution A, but she's veteran. She should have +2 to all stats. So she's a C7 H6 L6 ship. Considerably better than a green Excelsior in a fight. I really think we should send her to the GBZ, where she'd be the equal to Kumari except that she actually has an extra point of hull strength. I know we don't want to risk our experienced ship, but Cheron is an extremely tough old girl. Putting her there is significantly better than sending them Avandar.

 

[aeqnai]

Hey, I was just looking at Cheron, and I'm pretty sure her stats are lower than they should be. Her stats are all +1 over a Green Constitution A, but she's veteran. She should have +2 to all stats. So she's a C7 H6 L6 ship. Considerably better than a green Excelsior in a fight. I really think we should send her to the GBZ, where she'd be the equal to Kumari except that she actually has an extra point of hull strength. I know we don't want to risk our experienced ship, but Cheron is an extremely tough old girl. Putting her there is significantly better than sending them Avandar.

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IIRC the Connie-A design got nerfed a while back, but it's not been updated on the frontpage. Cheron has her proper stats.