[X][CREW] Explorer Corps
[X][NAME1] Atuin
[X][BUILD] Plan 2 Excelsiors, 3 Miranda-As, 2 Miranda Refits
[X][DEFIANT] Sydraxian Border Zone
[X][VALIANT] Cardassian Border Zone


Atuin works, gives another member world representation in the Starfleet name list.

If there was ever a time to take a long term ineffiecent build option and create more Miranda-A's, that time is now.

I also trust Briefvoice's deployment plans.
 
Why wouldn't we start a fifth Explorer Corps Excelsior, if we can?

[Note that I am not counting Stargazer because it's kind of... out of play.]

[EDIT: Okay, on reread I see your explanation, but I still think we're better off this way. An Explorer Corps ship is strictly superior to a regular one, and given that one or more of the Explorer Corps ships may end up getting hurt, while we really want those ships to be around for special operations AND possibly as a mobile heavy striking force... I'm still voting EC.]

Briefvoice is backing Atuin, another of your proposals; do you prefer Rru'adorr for your own reasons?

I suppose, it probably doesn't make much difference to probable combat deployments at this point. And I see your point about not counting stargazer for our local EC group But I do think we should focus on garrison excelsiors at least for a little bit soon, once we have 5 EC + Stargazer.

As for the name I don't really mind, I voted that way before I saw Briefvoice's post. Though I do slightly prefer Rru'adorr, If I had to choose only one to be used.

[x][crew] Explorer Corps
 
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@Briefvoice how bad would the SR shortfall be if we built Centaurs instead?

Three Miranda-As cost 135 special resources. Three Centaur-As cost 210 special resources. That's a 75 sr difference. A Renaissance costs 80 special resources.

Now I can't predict exact that that 75 sr will or won't have to cover. If we get into lots of fights and have ship repairs or budget cuts (you know, due tot he political crisis from going over 100 Cost) then we might be really glad we saved our special resource pennies! Or maybe there will be no battles and our Explorers will find lots of special resources and it'll be fine. I don't know what the thread will decide to build! I don't know.

At the moment I am in favor of saving our special resource pennies, because we are not planning to put these escorts anywhere that there aren't already far superior ships to handle most events, with the Mirandas just being there as back-up. They have have a decent Science (only 1 less than a Centaur-A) if it comes to that, and as long as they are not forced into Presence checks they should be good.
 
[X][CREW] Explorer Corps

[X][NAME1] USS Gagarin

[X][BUILD] Plan 2 Excelsiors, 3 Miranda-As, 2 Miranda Refits

[X][DEFIANT] Sydraxian Border Zone
[X][VALIANT] Cardassian Border Zone
 
EDIT:

For reference, everyone, we almost ran out of SR this year. Building up a reserve sounds like a good idea, especially if we can do it without taking ships off the front line for refits and while still using our berths to build ships that are likely to be used in the next five years.

I suppose, it probably doesn't make much difference to probable combat deployments at this point. And I see your point about not counting streamer for our local EC group But I do think we should focus on garrison excelsiors at least for a little bit soon, once we have 5 EC + Stargazer.

As for the name I don't really mind, I voted that way before I saw Briefvoice's post. Though I do slightly prefer Rru'adorr, If I had to choose only one to be used.
Since that is your preference, and they're both your names in the first place...

I will flip to Rru'adorr, the Caitian sorceror-king who managed to find a physical piece of love while exploring the world on his floating mountaintop palace. That does sound very, very Excelsior-ey.
 
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[X][CREW] Explorer Corps

[X][NAME1] Rru'adorr
[X][BUILD] Plan 2 Excelsiors, 3 Miranda-As, 2 Miranda Refits
[X][DEFIANT] Sydraxian Border Zone
[X][VALIANT] Cardassian Border Zone
 
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[X][CREW] Explorer Corps
[X][NAME1] Atuin
[X][BUILD] Plan 2 Excelsiors, 3 Miranda-As, 2 Miranda Refits
[X][DEFIANT] Sydraxian Border Zone
[X][VALIANT] Cardassian Border Zone

Because seriously, three Miranda-As is close to competitive with two Rennies despite lower resource and vastly lower crew costs. Three Miranda-As will reliably beat an Excelsior, despite lower resource and crew costs.

I'm not seeing the logic here.
Three Miranda's are also not likely to be at the same response, and even if they are: an enemy equivalent to an Excelsior would also likely pop a Miranda in the battle: Leading to Combat Capabilities of the formation being reduced by 1/3rd. An Excelsior would be preferable to 3 Miranda's because it has a better retention of Capability in a Long Firefight and we'll get ALL that capability if we respond with it. that said, I'm keeping them in my plan for the Combat padding, and that Miranda's are good Secondary Responders.
 
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[X][CREW] Explorer Corps
[X][NAME1] Rru'adorr
[X][BUILD] Plan 2 Excelsiors, 3 Miranda-As, 2 Miranda Refits
- Start an Excelsior in Ana Font Berth A in 2313.Q1
- Start an Excelsior in Utopia Planitia Berth B in 2313.Q1
- Start a Miranda-A in 40 Eridani A Berth A in 2313.Q1
- Start a Miranda-A in 40 Eridani A Berth 1 in 2313.Q1
- Start a Miranda-A in 40 Eridani A Berth1 in 2313.Q1
- Start Refit of the Miranda Bon Vivant in Utopia Planitia Berth 1 in 2313.Q2
- Start Refit of the Miranda T'Kumbra in Utopia Planitia Berth 2 in 2313.Q2

[X][DEFIANT] Sydraxian Border Zone
[X][VALIANT] Cardassian Border Zone
 
A question, would it be possible to sneak a hospital ship in over one of the Miranda-A's ?

I do think we could use the escorts, but I'd also like to point out that we'd probably also like to have our medical arm operating to a point where it can dedicate a ship to ongoing actions rather than having the regional one doing so rather than responding to call outs. Also, since the build time bonus works in pairs, would we be losing anything vital?
 
Because seriously, three Miranda-As is close to competitive with two Rennies despite lower resource and vastly lower crew costs. Three Miranda-As will reliably beat an Excelsior, despite lower resource and crew costs.

Your probably correct here when it comes to the Miranda-A vs Excelsior fight but there's a small variable that we should now keep in mind. The damage per hit is now tied to the shooting vessel's combat stat, so larger combat ships now have a very small advantage over a combat equal group of smaller ships, if the smaller ship's greater evasion stat doesn't compensate.
 
[X][CREW] Explorer Corps
[X][NAME1] USS Victory
[X][BUILD] Plan 2 Excelsiors, 3 Miranda-As 2 Miranda Refits
- Start an Excelsior in Ana Font Berth A in 2313.Q1
- Start an Excelsior in Utopia Planitia Berth B in 2313.Q1
- Start a Miranda-A in 40 Eridani A Berth A in 2313.Q1
- Start a Miranda-A in 40 Eridani A Berth 1 in 2313.Q1
- Start a Miranda-A in 40 Eridani A Berth1 in 2313.Q1
- Start Refit of the Miranda Bon Vivant in Utopia Planitia Berth 1 in 2313.Q2
- Start Refit of the Miranda T'Kumbra in Utopia Planitia Berth 2 in 2313.Q2
[X][DEFIANT] Sydraxian Border Zone
[X][VALIANT] Cardassian Border Zone
 
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[X][CREW] Explorer Corps
[X][NAME1] Rru'adorr
[X][BUILD] Plan 2 Excelsiors, 3 Miranda-As, 2 Miranda Refits
- Start an Excelsior in Ana Font Berth A in 2313.Q1
- Start an Excelsior in Utopia Planitia Berth B in 2313.Q1
- Start a Miranda-A in 40 Eridani A Berth A in 2313.Q1
- Start a Miranda-A in 40 Eridani A Berth 1 in 2313.Q1
- Start a Miranda-A in 40 Eridani A Berth1 in 2313.Q1
- Start Refit of the Miranda Bon Vivant in Utopia Planitia Berth 1 in 2313.Q2
- Start Refit of the Miranda T'Kumbra in Utopia Planitia Berth 2 in 2313.Q2

[X][DEFIANT] Sydraxian Border Zone
[X][VALIANT] Cardassian Border Zone

A question, would it be possible to sneak a hospital ship in over one of the Miranda-A's ?

I do think we could use the escorts, but I'd also like to point out that we'd probably also like to have our medical arm operating to a point where it can dedicate a ship to ongoing actions rather than having the regional one doing so rather than responding to call outs. Also, since the build time bonus works in pairs, would we be losing anything vital?
The Hospital ship design isn't finished yet, so this is a moot point-we can't start one even if we want to.
 
[X][CREW] Explorer Corps
[X][NAME1] USS Hood
[X][BUILD] Plan 2 Excelsiors, 3 Miranda-As 2 Miranda Refits
- Start an Excelsior in Ana Font Berth A in 2313.Q1
- Start an Excelsior in Utopia Planitia Berth B in 2313.Q1
- Start a Miranda-A in 40 Eridani A Berth A in 2313.Q1
- Start a Miranda-A in 40 Eridani A Berth 1 in 2313.Q1
- Start a Miranda-A in 40 Eridani A Berth1 in 2313.Q1
- Start Refit of the Miranda Bon Vivant in Utopia Planitia Berth 1 in 2313.Q2
- Start Refit of the Miranda T'Kumbra in Utopia Planitia Berth 2 in 2313.Q2
[X][DEFIANT] Sydraxian Border Zone
[X][VALIANT] Cardassian Border Zone

We already have a ship called Hood.
 
I believe the new hospital design process has not started yet, so if we were to build one now it would using a 50 year old design.

Maybe circumstances will force that on us, but if possible, I'd prefer to wait a couple of years to get the new design done first.
 
You're going to have an almighty press scorching of yourselves and all of Shipyard Operations if you start up a Ranger-derivative ship while a new Hospital Ship based upon the new Renaissance hull form is in mid-design.

On a further note, if we decide to donate resources towards extra hospital ships, can we assume SFMed has the crew for them?
 
Hey @OneirosTheWriter you're asking us where to send the Defiant and the Valiant. Just out of curiosity, where did you put the Saratoga and the Korolev? It's certainly fine that we didn't have to vote on that too; we don't need to micromanage everything.

But I am curious what squadron they're with if everything goes pear-shaped.
 
I suppose, it probably doesn't make much difference to probable combat deployments at this point. And I see your point about not counting stargazer for our local EC group But I do think we should focus on garrison excelsiors at least for a little bit soon, once we have 5 EC + Stargazer.

As for the name I don't really mind, I voted that way before I saw Briefvoice's post. Though I do slightly prefer Rru'adorr, If I had to choose only one to be used.

[x][crew] Explorer Corps

We do have 4 Excelsiors finishing 2315 and only one will be Explorer corps
 
On a further note, if we decide to donate resources towards extra hospital ships, can we assume SFMed has the crew for them?
They can handle a few more - I'll let you know when there is going to be a hold-up as far as crewing goes. For the approved run of ships, they have been storing up resources but also preparing the crew and training center requirements to cope.

Hey @OneirosTheWriter you're asking us where to send the Defiant and the Valiant. Just out of curiosity, where did you put the Saratoga and the Korolev? It's certainly fine that we didn't have to vote on that too; we don't need to micromanage everything.

But I am curious what squadron they're with if everything goes pear-shaped.
I ate them.

*blank look*

(Their shakedown cruise was to the hub at Leas Akaam where they can be a relatively quick trip from there to any hot spot)
 
I vaguely recall the Cardassian view being some mixture of "yeah, they're actually complete peace-loving pushovers" and "they've got some serious sneakiness under the peace-loving hood". I'm thinking Federation actions in recent years kind of weakens the former view - some of the actions taken during the biophage were fairly ruthless, and the current campaign against the Syndicate has some vicious bits as well.
The Cardassians haven't seen what the Federation is like in full gloves off mode yet. The Romulans and Klingons HAVE.

Also Cardassian ideology does not permit a world where the federation as it actually is can exist - an accurate xenopsych profile is basically heresy in their ideology.

OK, I can see the Cardassians thinking the Federation is peaceloving.

__________

As far as the Cardassian offer, I think we absolutely must reject any condition that limits our ability to make diplomacy with the Cardassian "allies". Though maybe we could agree that these allies won't be offered Federation membership.

The worry that their allies might switch sides and align with the Federation is the strongest means we'll have of moderating Cardassian behavior towards them, short of all out war.

fasquardon
 
Three Miranda's are also not likely to be at the same response, and even if they are: an enemy equivalent to an Excelsior would also likely pop a Miranda in the battle.
That would be true if the enemy could reliably focus Excelsior-equivalent firepower on one of the Miranda-As while totally ignoring the other two.

Suffice to say that the evidence suggests that this is not normally something enemy fleets will be able to do.

Leading to Combat Capabilities of the formation being reduced by 1/3rd. An Excelsior would be preferable to 3 Miranda's because it has a better retention of Capability in a Long Firefight...
90 hit points of damage in the new combat engine will reduce an Excelsior to a disabled wreck.

Distribute 90 hit points of damage more or less evenly across three Miranda-As and you have three intact ships with no shields left, and an aggregate of 60 hit points of hull left to go.

Furthermore, the Miranda-As will dish out damage significantly faster than a lone Excelsior can hope to- in the new engine, they give you three opportunities to hit instead of one, which more than offsets the halved damage inflicted per shot.

In other words, Combat 9 Hull 6 Shields 9 is generally going to beat Combat 6 Hull 4 Shields 5. Concentrating all the C/H/L of the weaker force on a single platform doesn't fix that.

A question, would it be possible to sneak a hospital ship in over one of the Miranda-A's ?

I do think we could use the escorts, but I'd also like to point out that we'd probably also like to have our medical arm operating to a point where it can dedicate a ship to ongoing actions rather than having the regional one doing so rather than responding to call outs. Also, since the build time bonus works in pairs, would we be losing anything vital?
We're not finished designing the hospital ship yet, and honestly we have a whole dedicated yard opening up for building ships like that in 12-24 months. I'd rather save the Starfleet regular berths for building ships that fight and respond to normal events.

Your probably correct here when it comes to the Miranda-A vs Excelsior fight but there's a small variable that we should now keep in mind. The damage per hit is now tied to the shooting vessel's combat stat, so larger combat ships now have a very small advantage over a combat equal group of smaller ships, if the smaller ship's greater evasion stat doesn't compensate.
Thing is, hit probability now DOESN'T depend on the opposing team's combat stats. The side with twice as many ships hits twice as often, which compensates for only doing half as much damage per hit. If you bring three times as many ships, each of which hit half as hard, you will inflict 1.5 times more damage on the enemy. So you're right about the effects of one change to the combat engine, but there's a second change which would appear to cancel out the first change.

In other words...

If two ships with Combat 6 duel for 30 rounds, they each hit 15 times for 6X damage per shot (where X is some average expected amount of damage). Each side dishes out 90X damage (ignoring evasion).

If one ship with Combat 6 fights two ships with Combat 3 for 30 rounds, the heavy hitter only hits 10 times out of 30. It still does 6X damage per shot, but that only adds up to 60X damage. Meanwhile, the Combat 3 ships score 20 of the 30 hits, and dish out 20*3X equals 60X damage. The results are still a tie (although interestingly, this suggests that the battle will take longer to be resolved).

If one ship with Combat 6 fights THREE ships with Combat 3, then the heavy hitter only hits (on average) 30/4 = 7.5 times. It's doing (on average) 7.5*6 = 45X damage. The smaller ships hit (on average) 22.5 times, delivering (on average) 67.5X damage.

So in the long run, 3*3 still turns out to be 50% larger than 1*6, which is exactly what you'd predict.
 
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[X][CREW] Explorer Corps
[X][NAME1] Miracht
[X][BUILD] Plan 2 Excelsiors, 3 Miranda-As, 2 Miranda Refits
- Start an Excelsior in Ana Font Berth A in 2313.Q1
- Start an Excelsior in Utopia Planitia Berth B in 2313.Q1
- Start a Miranda-A in 40 Eridani A Berth A in 2313.Q1
- Start a Miranda-A in 40 Eridani A Berth 1 in 2313.Q1
- Start a Miranda-A in 40 Eridani A Berth1 in 2313.Q1
- Start Refit of the Miranda Bon Vivant in Utopia Planitia Berth 1 in 2313.Q2
- Start Refit of the Miranda T'Kumbra in Utopia Planitia Berth 2 in 2313.Q2

[X][DEFIANT] Sydraxian Border Zone
[X][VALIANT] Cardassian Border Zone

Miracht: Third time's the charm.

As far as the Cardassian offer, I think we absolutely must reject any condition that limits our ability to make diplomacy with the Cardassian "allies". Though maybe we could agree that these allies won't be offered Federation membership
I don't mind agreeing to only host conversations with diplomats from those races in the presence of Cardassian diplomats, as long as the Cardassians are willing to have these diplomats available at a moment's notice and they agree to keep Cardassia-Federation diplomatic channels open.
 
I don't see much point in debating the Cardassian negotiations because that's not going to be up for a vote. We've already been told how we can affect this. If the Enterprise succeeds in its mission then we'll get a good deal (or at least as good as possible) and the diplomats will press hard. If the Enterprise fails in its mission then our diplomats will be cautious and yield on more points than they otherwise would. We'll certainly give away Bajor and might even give up the Gabriel Expanse. (Which I would hate to see.)
 
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