I have a design in review for the SDB that beats the pants off the MA in cost and that we could design this Snakepit. Builds a quarter faster, too. We may want to build some MAs in the interim, but they should be considered a soon obsolete design.
 
Should we be focusing on freight moving between Cardassian systems, or on smashing space-side infrastructure?
Spaceside infrastructure.

They seem to have freighters moving food of all things, so blowing up their freighters may cause humanitarian (Cardassitarian?) disasters before it does much to their war effort.

Blowing up orbital industry, by contrast, is more likely to hamstring their war machine without seriously impairing their ability to feed people.

The more we can diplomatically isolate an opponent, the better. Is there anything we can afford to offer?
Offering the Dawiar better protection/resource flow deals than they can get from the Cardassians is definitely on the table. Negotiating economic reparations to the Sydraxians is on offer. We can maybe figure out something for the Lecarre, but I doubt it- they're so paranoid and reclusive that we may not even be able to reach them; do they have ANY lines of normal diplomatic discourse that aren't routed through Cardassia?

Honestly I would form up the Explorer Corps and send them a-raiding behind Cardassian lines, with the goal of hitting their shipyards to ensure we do long-term damage to their ability to act against other races if we're forced to sue for peace. To defend themselves against 5 explorers of varying degrees of experience the Cardassians would essentially be forced to go on the defensive which would minimize the risk of costly attacks on our own people, and let our Hawkier members act with near-impunity.

We should keep in mind that any victory on our part will only radicalize them, though. No such thing as a good war...
I think the Cardassians are about as radicalized as they can get already. They've already been acting like they're at war with us, literally ever since we met them- it just wasn't a convenient time to attack us. The last time the Federation had to deal with something like this it took literally divine intervention to bring about anything like normal relations (the Treaty of Organia), and even that didn't fix everything.

At which point our diplomats point out that at no point has the Federation ever been at war with a nation-state called "The Syndicate". We have been aiding the democratically elected Orion government in law enforcement operations regarding a violent criminal organization of the same name however.

There is a reason people were against the suggestions to declare "war" on the Syndicate. It would have provided them recognition as a valid nation-state when legally speaking all they are right now is a particularly well armed gang.
This.

I know that and you know that hell I even imagine the Cardies know that but if they spin it correctly they still have a dangerous tool they can us against both as propaganda and a tool on the negotiating table.
I don't think that diplomatic tool will be very effective after us; the rubble in Lironh has hardly stopped bouncing.

If we can ensure that their other client species also see those promises and provide them updates on the Bajorans at regular intervals? Yes. The timeline here is different in that the Cardassians are propping up a client government, they're not invaders. If their other clients see them breaking promises to their puppets and engaging in acts of genocide against them, the Federation will start to look a lot more tempting...
We have reason to think the Cardassians began by propping up a Bajoran puppet government in the canon timeline too.
 
It's not as good as the Centuar, so I see no point in building more.

The issue with the Centaur-A is that while superior to the Miranda-A, its also expensive to the point where we might as well build cruisers.

Yes, but- youse were warned. :p

Honestly, that seems likely to be the case.

I recommend, in broad outline:

1) Clear our flanks of the Dawiar and Sydraxian military threats by whatever means necessary, preferably diplomatic.
2) Defeat the Cardassian fleet in open battle to the point where their ability to resist Federation offensives is in doubt.
3) Capture the orbitals of one or more major Cardassian worlds.
4) Engage in destruction of space-based infrastructure open to our forces.

Once the Cardassians are willing to seek terms, I would say our minimal war aims would be:

1) Recognition of Apiata/Federation rights in the Gabriel Expanse (negotiating Sydraxian/Cardassian rights in the Expanse is an acceptable compromise).
2) Bajor to be, at minimum, rendered into a demilitarized zone neither power is allowed to send ships into, with Bajoran independence to be restored in the hands of a completely new government selected by plebiscite among Bajoran citizens.

This all sounds good to me.

Regarding the Sydraxians, we know from experience that despite all their bluster about glorious battle, they're liable to retreat unless the odds are overwhelmingly in their favor (see: Chekhov's encounter with them). They also seem to be very concerned with appearances and ceremony.

I think that in a best case scenario where we've gotten the Yrillians and Gretarans to pressure them enough, the Sydraxians would send a token fleet to attack Earth or Apinae sector, and then have it retreat as soon as the fight turned against it. Possibly without any loss of life.

So basically, if we see a suspiciously small Sydraxian fleet inbound it might be in our best interest to let the ships escape after defeating them, hence allowing the Sydraxians to declare the war over and sing songs of their brave soldiers who marched off to glorious defeat. On the other hand, if we see a full mobilization of their fleet we can probably infer that they're attacking us for real and we should react in kind.
 
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First off, @OneirosTheWriter? Congratulations on creating a quest so amazingly interesting that it has managed to make me do something that the other 1000+ quests and fanfics I've read over the 6 years I've spent lurking on SB and SV have not, make me sign up and participate.

With that out of the way, here's some interesting math regarding Starfleet's current resource income. Using the SR values on the first page of the ship building thread, plus the most expensive Ambassador SR value I can find (260), Starfleet can afford to build 2 Ambassadors, 2 Excelsiors, 6 Renaissances, and some combination of up to 4 Centaur-A's or 6 Miranda-A's every 3 years for a total combat value of around 70-76, if we give the Ambassador combat 8. Of course, we don't actually have enough shipyards to do that, or perhaps even enough crew, but it shows what just Starfleet could do given the chance.

Also, @Forgothrax? Your design looks great but I've got the sinking feeling Oneiros will probably change something in the build sheet so that we can't build something quite that good at this time with that resource and crew price. There's also the problem of it taking somewhere between 4 and 6 years to build the prototype which means it's pointless to do so at the moment. Also, it's only got 3 defense to it's 5 combat so it's combat cap inefficient.
 
Sapientarian? We used sophontitarian before but that was meh... animatarian, referring to souls?
Since all the starving people here would be Cardassians, I figured a species-specific term was in order.

I'm talking about waiting for our next cruiser wave.
After the next few months of game time, we don't have any more large waves of cruisers entering production simultaneously until some time in late 2316. It'd be great if we could just somehow "press pause" on the war for FOUR YEARS while waiting for those ships to be ready... but somehow I don't think we can count on being able to do that.

The Bajorans are probably one of the oldest Starfaring worlds in the quadrant. They probably watched the Old Orion Empire rise and fall and the HurQ blow by.
Thaaat may have changed. Honestly, the idea of Bajorans being ancient starfarers really doesn't fit very well with having the Cardassians totally outclass them not just in numbers and ruthlessness but in technology, which we were told was the case.

Part of the idea of the Forward Defense doctrine is to fix that by putting such a large portion of our forces in border zones that they are a "real fleet". Though it's hard to say what that even is. What's a "real fleet"? You're probably right that 15-20 isn't enough... is 30? 40? The Cardassians have less territory to defend than we do, but they can't send all their ships. The Apiata would swing around and attack their worlds freely.

Eh, just musing.
I think Combat 30-40 is a good benchmark- about the size of the forces we were slinging around during Grey October. Comparable to the scale of an entire member world fleet, and large enough that you'd really have to try in order to amass a fleet capable of reliably defeating it without taking heavy damage to some of your ships. Anything much below Combat 30 isn't a "fleet," it's a squadron, and while squadrons can accomplish useful things in warfare, when they go up against one of the enemy's main fleets they go 'splat.'

I mean, it's not that the Cardassians can't "crack" a Combat 40 force parked at Lapycorias. But they can't do it "quick easy cheap;" it'd be at most one out of those three. If they want the victory to be reliably achieved, they'd need a fleet of Combat much larger than forty, which means they can't do it without massing a lot of forces in the general area around Indorion space. Which gives us more warning that they're coming.

Speaking of wartime applications of escorts. For those who thought the Miranda-A was impressive at:
Miranda-A Now-Now [277m, 655k t]
C3 S2 H2 L3 P1 D2
Cost[60br, 45sr, 2 years], Crew [O-1, E-2, T-1]​
then the Wartime Escort SWB came up with in the SDB:
The Dictator's Choice [???m, 437kt]
C3 S1 H3 L3 P1 D3
Cost[45br, 40sr, 0.5 years], Crew [O-1, E-1, T-1]​
is amazing. If we loaded up our 1mt bays with them we could have +54C per year. The downsides being that it would chew through our crew like crazy and is completely useless, to the point of being an active hindrance, in peacetime. Which incidentally means that despite not tripping any of the built in flags this would definitely give us serious Militarization points.
I am deeply suspicious that we might not be allowed to go with that "six months to build one" timeframe. It doesn't look like anyone else in the galaxy is being allowed to build escorts that fast, even the relatively small, slimmed-down ones. With the possible exception of Klingon Birds-of-Prey, which are extremely tiny and weak.

The Dictator's Choice-class is cheaper than a Miranda-A (unsurprisingly), but has very little else going for it. I suspect the +1 Hull doesn't offset the -1 Science, because sensors matter. The increased Defense score may help, and I have no doubt these things could perform in a fleet battle. But on the other hand, they'll be less effective at picket duty and the like.

A Federation warship really does need a decent science score. Because even in wartime, fighting isn't literally all a ship does.

I have a design in review for the SDB that beats the pants off the MA in cost and that we could design this Snakepit. Builds a quarter faster, too. We may want to build some MAs in the interim, but they should be considered a soon obsolete design.
Has anyone tried designing a Miranda-B refit that actually uses the new spreadsheet, by the way?

It's not as good as the Centuar, so I see no point in building more.
I assume you have several hundred free SR hidden under your pillow for us to fund a wave of Centaur-A production, then.
 
That's true. I should've clarified that I was just talking about what class of Escort I'd rather build.

If the escort in question is almost as expensive as a cruiser (which isn't hyperbole in this case; the Centaur-A costs 80BR/70SR to the Conniebee's 100/80), then its preferable to just build a cruiser.

In order to make generalist escorts a viable option we'll need to either research some techs that massively increase the Centaur-A's SR efficiency, or just design a new and cheaper escort. The latter is much more likely. But in the meantime, unfortunately, the only cost-effective use we have for escorts is Miranda-A spam for combat purposes.
 
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If the escort in question is almost as expensive as a cruiser (which isn't hyperbole in this case; the Centaur-A costs 80BR/70SR to the Conniebee's 100/80), then its preferable to just build a cruiser.

In order to make generalist escorts a viable option we'll need to either research some techs that massively increase the Centaur-A's SR efficiency, or just design a new and cheaper escort with a similar statline. The latter is much more likely.
The only escort-SCALE ship on the front page that's a viable generalist is the Intrepid.
Intrepid 2370-Now [344m 700k t]
C6 S10 H4 L4 P6 D5
Cost[70br, 150sr, 2 years], Crew [O-4, E-3, T-5]
THAT is worth using as our medium generalist. Better in a fight than anything it's weight/cost bracket save Defiants, tied for best at science with freaking GALAXIES, good presence, good defense. If we were using front page ships the 2370 build order would be Sovereigns, Intrepids, and Defiants. No cruisers, Nebulas and Akiras are pointless.
 
Honestly, if we can we should probably just do an early refit for the Renaissance that gives it +2S and +1P. That would give us a do everything light cruiser we can just spam to fill sector defense requirements. Garrison each sector with a couple of dedicated science escorts, one or two Excelsiors , and two to five Renaissance-A's and we'd be golden.
 
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I have a design in review for the SDB that beats the pants off the MA in cost and that we could design this Snakepit. Builds a quarter faster, too. We may want to build some MAs in the interim, but they should be considered a soon obsolete design.
Do you have a link, for those of us who find the dizzying array of numbers and spreadsheets in the SDB Thread a bit intimidating and overwhelming?
 
Thaaat may have changed. Honestly, the idea of Bajorans being ancient starfarers really doesn't fit very well with having the Cardassians totally outclass them not just in numbers and ruthlessness but in technology, which we were told was the case.

The impression I got was that the ancient Bajorans started to become an interstellar power, but then collapsed into a horrible dark age that reduced them to industrial tech levels, and that the Cardassians conquered them just as they were starting to emerge from it in modern times.

I have no idea what would have caused such a collapse, much less why their colonies didn't just rise to dominance in the wake of Bajor's regression, but its the only explanation that makes sense to me. Maybe they got fucked over extra hard by the Hur'q?
 
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Remember, the hur'Q come from the Gamma Quadrant. And while most of them may or may not have come to and from the AQ the long way round... maybe a few of them found themselves a shortcut, and a ripe world for the picking on the other end of it?
 
Has anyone tried designing a Miranda-B refit that actually uses the new spreadsheet, by the way?
I don't think so; Oneiros hasn't clarified how exactly refits work using the new spreadsheet. That said a Miranda 2.0 has recently (IE: today) been proposed with some impressive stats:
NuRanda 2.0 [???m, 640kt]
C5 S3 H3 L4 P3 D3
Cost[65br, 60sr, 1.75 years], Crew [O-1, E-2, T-1]​
So theoretically we might be able to get a Miranda-B refit to something around that level. Depending upon what the refit rules/guidelines are.
 
Also, @Forgothrax? Your design looks great but I've got the sinking feeling Oneiros will probably change something in the build sheet so that we can't build something quite that good at this time with that resource and crew price. There's also the problem of it taking somewhere between 4 and 6 years to build the prototype which means it's pointless to do so at the moment. Also, it's only got 3 defense to it's 5 combat so it's combat cap inefficient.

Prototype should be 150% of build time IIRC, so my proposed design would take (7 quarters original build time x 150%) 10-11 quarters to prototype. Not too bad. The ship is basically a Centaur with +1 H/L and +2C, and it's new build which explains why it's much better. It's also about as efficient as a MA in terms of defense to combat.

The only escort-SCALE ship on the front page that's a viable generalist is the Intrepid.
Intrepid 2370-Now [344m 700k t]
C6 S10 H4 L4 P6 D5
Cost[70br, 150sr, 2 years], Crew [O-4, E-3, T-5]

THAT is worth using as our medium generalist. Better in a fight than anything it's weight/cost bracket save Defiants, tied for best at science with freaking GALAXIES, good presence, good defense. If we were using front page ships the 2370 build order would be Sovereigns, Intrepids, and Defiants. No cruisers, Nebulas and Akiras are pointless.

I think that's a little too much to hope for. That's like, 58 years in the future, and DCs will have increased by then. We can manage a S8 P5 D4 Kepler and that's a pretty decent generalist peacetime garrison ship. Back it up with combatants and we should be fine.

Honestly, if we can we should probably just do an early refit for the Renaissance that gives it +2S and +1P. That would give us a do everything light cruiser we can just spam to fill sector defense requirements. Garrison each sector with a couple of dedicated science escorts, one or two Excelsiors , and two to five Renaissance-A's and we'd be golden.

The plan is to have a sector Excelsior for each soon, and considering that our proposed Kepler will have S8 P5 D4, that gives the possibility of two excellent responders for each sector (especially considering we're likely to have an Excelsior refit shortly). We haven't even finished research on the Renny yet; an early refit isn't happening.

Do you have a link, for those of us who find the dizzying array of numbers and spreadsheets in the SDB Thread a bit intimidating and overwhelming?

Sure.
 
The likely way a refit would work is:
- same frames
- some parts can't be changed
- you pay full price for any parts that are changed

A refit along the lines of the above would be more Connie-B, an entirely new ship on the inside on the same frame. Also I don't recommend ever considering only one design; you need comparison terms.
 
it could have been a religious conflict. I mean that brutally regressive caste system and fanaticism had to come from somewhere.

Historically speaking, those tend to be symptoms of societal collapse rather than causes.

I don't think so; Oneiros hasn't clarified how exactly refits work using the new spreadsheet. That said a Miranda 2.0 has recently (IE: today) been proposed with some impressive stats:
NuRanda 2.0 [???m, 640kt]
C5 S3 H3 L4 P3 D3
Cost[65br, 60sr, 1.75 years], Crew [O-1, E-2, T-1]​
So theoretically we might be able to get a Miranda-B refit to something around that level. Depending upon what the refit rules/guidelines are.

Oh my....

That sexy, sexy statline, with those low build times and costs? Oh you cheap whore I love you.~
 
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Thaaat may have changed. Honestly, the idea of Bajorans being ancient starfarers really doesn't fit very well with having the Cardassians totally outclass them not just in numbers and ruthlessness but in technology, which we were told was the case.

I think it could be made to work as is. From what we know the Bajorans are 1. deeply religious, and 2. live on a resource rich world.

This would imply to me that they have managed not to consume vast amounts of the resources of their home planet in getting to the stars, and likely took a very slow and measured pace in technological development that emphasised sustainability. This dynamic could very well have been enforced by religious strictures.
So whilst it took humans less than 150 years to progress from powered aerial flight to warp travel, for Bajorans it may have taken a millenium to simply make it into space. They could have spent several millenia totally content inside their own system puttering around in solar sail craft. They may have had the ability to observe neraby interstellar powers, and had knowledge of them, but warp travel could well have been a very recent development. Perhaps in the two hundred years or less.
 
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Forgothrax said:
Prototype should be 150% of build time IIRC, so my proposed design would take (7 quarters original build time x 150%) 10-11 quarters to prototype. Not too bad. The ship is basically a Centaur with +1 H/L and +2C, and it's new build which explains why it's much better. It's also about as efficient as a MA in terms of defense to combat.

Sure, though correct me if I'm wrong but there should be at least a small research project for the design which makes it more like 10-11 + 4-8 quarters. As for why I brought up the defense value, if we're going to build a dedicated combat escort (a Miranda-A replacement), we shouldn't bother with S and P so as to keep cost and build time down. After all, we could just mothball the ships until we need them again instead of using them during peace time which would solve the response problem.

Forgothrax said:
The plan is to have a sector Excelsior for each soon, and considering that our proposed Kepler will have S8 P5 D4, that gives the possibility of two excellent responders for each sector (especially considering we're likely to have an Excelsior refit shortly). We haven't even finished research on the Renny yet; an early refit isn't happening.

Err.. the Renaissance prototype is due to be completed in 2314 Q1, that's just two years from now. What I meant by an early refit is that after the first dozen or so are finished towards the end of the decade, do a refit for +2S +1P so that it's stats are C5 S5 H4 L5 P5 D5. Then we just fill out the sector defense requirements (which are supposed to go up some time in the near future) with them.
 
I am deeply suspicious that we might not be allowed to go with that "six months to build one" timeframe. It doesn't look like anyone else in the galaxy is being allowed to build escorts that fast, even the relatively small, slimmed-down ones. With the possible exception of Klingon Birds-of-Prey, which are extremely tiny and weak.

The Dictator's Choice-class is cheaper than a Miranda-A (unsurprisingly), but has very little else going for it. I suspect the +1 Hull doesn't offset the -1 Science, because sensors matter. The increased Defense score may help, and I have no doubt these things could perform in a fleet battle. But on the other hand, they'll be less effective at picket duty and the like.

A Federation warship really does need a decent science score. Because even in wartime, fighting isn't literally all a ship does.

An escort isn't designed to run around on it's own. It's meant to escort a more valuable ship, such as a cruiser or explorer. It's purpose is to add firepower and take hits meant for the more valuable ship.

So, if you throw an escort down all on it's lonesome, you're misusing your resource. An escort should be part of a "wolf pack" and that wolf pack should be attached to a cruiser. Say 2-3 escorts per cruiser. That's pretty much a combined arms doctrine, however. Because you only need one platform with good sensors, tying the sensors from the cruiser into a battle network (such as AEGIS, as a modern example), should make the entire system more effective. Just my two cents, as a Navy vet.
 
Historically speaking, those tend to be symptoms of societal collapse rather than causes.

point. Though religion may have been involved in the same way capitalism and communism were involved in the cold war. ie used as uniforms as two great powers went at it and pulled others into the fight. It would explain why religion took over so totally afterward, the people were already being convinced that it was the right of the church to rule. Though it could just be a case of a theocracy growing up after a secular state collapsed. It's kind of a blank canvas to write one right now.
 
An escort isn't designed to run around on it's own. It's meant to escort a more valuable ship, such as a cruiser or explorer. It's purpose is to add firepower and take hits meant for the more valuable ship.

So, if you throw an escort down all on it's lonesome, you're misusing your resource. An escort should be part of a "wolf pack" and that wolf pack should be attached to a cruiser. Say 2-3 escorts per cruiser. That's pretty much a combined arms doctrine, however. Because you only need one platform with good sensors, tying the sensors from the cruiser into a battle network (such as AEGIS, as a modern example), should make the entire system more effective. Just my two cents, as a Navy vet.

The event system doesn't really allow for that though, which means that in practice you'll only be able to use escorts in such a way during wartime.

For a non-wartime escort to be worthwhile for us, it needs to be either extremely specialized for a type of event (like an oberth), or basically a budget cruiser. The Centaur-A is the latter, but with too much cruiser and not enough budget.
 
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