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At which point we stall for time by sending diplomatic notes and envoys back and forth between any and all relevant parties for weeks.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
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- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
Alastor Mobius Toth
***** ***
- Location
- Neon Ghetto
For the record, I am not belittling Nazis, but as far as I am concerned there's no real difference between the two. Sure, Stalin didn't install death camps, but people were sent to Siberia for most trivial of shit, and people were still killed over daring to speak the truth over what the party was doing to both our history and culture, over a period of time that lasted for decades. It's like...you're exchanging one horrible occupation for another horrible occupations. The workings differ, but they ultimately end up with people suffering one way or the other.
I see your point, but I'm also unconvinced that it would work, since I can't see a puppet Bajoran government actually being capable of standing up to Cardassians, or actual constraining them in any real manner. If anything, it will give them greater freedom to move about, "delegating" (so to speak) oppression to their local patsies in same vein as Soviets did in DDR or any other of its Banana states. It would be nice if that wasn't the case, but again, I can't see it happening; given that Cardassians already control the planet. From their point of view there isn't much benefit to allowing an existence of a puppet state, especially in light of Federation's tendencies of assimilating everything in vicinity of their borders...unless they are convinced Bajors will do what they're told, in which case the whole thing goes back to the beginning, it'll just be less obvious. I'm not really sure how we can spin to them in manner that outweighs the benefits they're already getting from control of Bajor.
I admit I'm not really sure how to ultimately avoid a war with Cardassians. Fundamentally they're incredibly paranoid and stubborn, which combined with their zero-sum approach to diplomacy makes them about the worst neighbors. The only way I could see it happening would be if a significant portion of their military went *poof* due to space dragons or something, or if they could be somehow convinced that we make for more beneficial trade partners than enemies - the latter of which isn't likely to happen unless Cardassians get first-hand taste of what that means.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
What exactly don't you like? And is it that you don't like pre-Cardassian Bajoran culture, or the Bajoran culture post-Occupation as seen in DS9?
Bajor, Bajor, Bajor... fuck it, I don't want to give up Celos or any other part of Orion space. Bajor isn't even on my radar.
Sigh. Maybe I should have voted to have our ships start skirmishing with the Cardassians instead of holing up back at the starbase. I went back and looked at the result of the Apinae Foxtrot, and we were actually ordered to do that. Told by the xeno psychologists that we needed to bloody the Cardassians a little to get them to respect us.
Sigh. Maybe I should have voted to have our ships start skirmishing with the Cardassians instead of holing up back at the starbase. I went back and looked at the result of the Apinae Foxtrot, and we were actually ordered to do that. Told by the xeno psychologists that we needed to bloody the Cardassians a little to get them to respect us.
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Eh, some of us - myself included - saw a diplomatic opportunity to pry another minor player out of the Cardassian camp, one we weren't going to see again. So we rolled the dice.
On the other hand, we didn't want to seriously stir up trouble until we were better prepared; hindsight is 20/20.
Warning: We are so not going down this road
- Location
- Australia
we are so not going down this road
@fasquardon @Alastor Mobius Toth
Okay, you've both said your piece, so matters pertaining to WW2, Poland, the USSR, and the Nazis are now off-topic and not to be raised again.
@fasquardon @Alastor Mobius Toth
Okay, you've both said your piece, so matters pertaining to WW2, Poland, the USSR, and the Nazis are now off-topic and not to be raised again.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
I suppose the proper diplomatic attitude towards the Cardassians would be an aggressive one, with an appearance of dominance of superiority, even in the lack of one?
That's what I feel about them, so far, anyhow.
Like, instead of offering concessions for Celos, demand concessions to allow the Cardassians to wash their hands of Celos.
That's what I feel about them, so far, anyhow.
Like, instead of offering concessions for Celos, demand concessions to allow the Cardassians to wash their hands of Celos.
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If we wind up at war with the Cardassian Union, how do we intend to prosecute such a conflict? What's our endgame for such a war?
- Location
- Central Standard Time
Delay until we can bring the cruiser spam into play.
Use aggressive skirmishing and raiding with light forces to strangle their economy in the mean time (Apiata)
Deal with the clients, and maybe swing some.
pheonix89
Wants to be Seven Of Nine
- Location
- North American Plaguelands
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- She/Her
Not based on it, they don't. We didn't stick our nose in till the Syndicate started blowing up diplomats. Non-interference is NOT the same as letting acts of war go unanswered.
Not even remotely on the table. Plus, all we have to do is stall to make it a moot point. They can't really recognize a government that doesn't exist, now can they?
- Location
- Central Standard Time
Not on the table. We have a crew shortage, and we don't conscript.
We see their escort spam, and reply by spamming the same number of Cruisers.
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Like most Star Trek aliens, they are stereotypes and both pre and post occupation Bajorans are stereotypes of unpleasant (to me at least) dimensions of humanity. I suppose what I really dislike is that they are such flat stereotypes for such a major species in the show. They had the time to introduce far more nuance and complexity, but never did.
Do we need them to respect us?
I don't think you are wrong, but I also see the counter-argument in favor of playing it safe until we have the power to absolutely crush the Cardies.
This may be true.
Almost certainly, avoiding war will require bloodying their nose, but not hard enough that it starts a war.
Delicate balance that.
Fair points here.
It would be fun to read those talks.
The Orion Civil War is about what I expected. And considering the Syndicate was doing things that could have set off an interstellar war, I have no regrets.
People who toss around live grenades in the ammunition storage bunker need to be put down hard.
fasquardon
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
They honestly don't seem any flatter than any other species, even with more screen time. I mean, we get a fair bit of screen time for Ferengi, including visits to their homeworld, meeting their head of state, etc., but they don't progress past a certain point. Same with the Cardassians.
Honestly the Bajorans seemed at least decently well-developed, to me. We had ranges of attitudes, stances, goals, motivations, etc. I'm not sure what's so much more unpleasant about the Bajorans compared to the Cardassians or Dominion.
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In point of fact, the Orion Civil War (frankly, calling it a a civil war is a bit much considering the rebels only have one world and have been more or less beaten back within the span of a few weeks) was more or less within the margin of error for our predictions. We went into this with the understanding that it would be our Space!Iraq, and we got what we expected.
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Cruiser spam will take years; I'm not sure the Federation citizenry will put up with that sort of prolonged conflict. It's why we were hoping for a three-year delay before widespread hostilities broke out. Any suggestions on what to do in the meantime?
Should we be focusing on freight moving between Cardassian systems, or on smashing space-side infrastructure?
The more we can diplomatically isolate an opponent, the better. Is there anything we can afford to offer?
- Location
- the Moon
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- He/Him
I think that was for the 'Liberty ships.' ie the freighters sending materials to Europe.
I know the destroyers were called tin cans, and went by the motto 'live fast, die young, take many with you'
edit: on the liberty ships, there was a history channel thing where one of those freighters went from 'keel laid' to 'sailing' in less than a week. the average time from keel to sailing was closer to a month.
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Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
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Intercept your enemies coms, mock and laugh as they keep getting wiped out due to shit leadership?
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Honestly I would form up the Explorer Corps and send them a-raiding behind Cardassian lines, with the goal of hitting their shipyards to ensure we do long-term damage to their ability to act against other races if we're forced to sue for peace. To defend themselves against 5 explorers of varying degrees of experience the Cardassians would essentially be forced to go on the defensive which would minimize the risk of costly attacks on our own people, and let our Hawkier members act with near-impunity.
We should keep in mind that any victory on our part will only radicalize them, though. No such thing as a good war...
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Alastor Mobius Toth
***** ***
- Location
- Neon Ghetto
If I recall correctly, one of the major problems of the Cardassia - and the drive behind its expansion - was the crippling need of raw materials. Pretty sure that was one of the reasons behind them strip mining everything.
Granted, I'm not sure how much of this applies to TBG-verse, but Cardassia's random expansionism and resource tributes it seems to extract roughly match same objectives. I imagine a concentrated effort to either sever their trade or destroy their colonial base would probably set them back severely. Even if Cardassia isn't in same situation as in canon, destroying their industrial base still works to our advantage, given our better developed industries and larger resource pool.
It would also hopefully invite their fleet to spread out more, unless Cardassians are willing to endure industrial losses in favor of maintaining concentration of force.
I think we've been doing pretty well on that point; what with Apiata and Indorrians. Most of Cardassian clients that remain - or rather, we know about - seem pretty firmly in their pocket. Admittedly, we can probably keep the Dawiar out; Sydraxians remain a big maybe, but they seem pretty intent on perpetrating bad blood with us - unless they either accept our diplomatic overtures or we find a definitive proof of Cardassian involvement with our initial diplomatic efforts, they'll probably stay on Cardassian side.
As far as diplomacy in general goes, the Federation can realistically offer much more beneficial bargain than being a client of Cardassians; but the problem remains that either we're just not believed on that account, or people doubt whether Federation will be able to marshal itself in case of decisive conflict. The size and peaceful overtures of the federation aren't as appealing when Cardassian fleet is much, much more closer to you.
Granted, I'm not sure how much of this applies to TBG-verse, but Cardassia's random expansionism and resource tributes it seems to extract roughly match same objectives. I imagine a concentrated effort to either sever their trade or destroy their colonial base would probably set them back severely. Even if Cardassia isn't in same situation as in canon, destroying their industrial base still works to our advantage, given our better developed industries and larger resource pool.
It would also hopefully invite their fleet to spread out more, unless Cardassians are willing to endure industrial losses in favor of maintaining concentration of force.
I think we've been doing pretty well on that point; what with Apiata and Indorrians. Most of Cardassian clients that remain - or rather, we know about - seem pretty firmly in their pocket. Admittedly, we can probably keep the Dawiar out; Sydraxians remain a big maybe, but they seem pretty intent on perpetrating bad blood with us - unless they either accept our diplomatic overtures or we find a definitive proof of Cardassian involvement with our initial diplomatic efforts, they'll probably stay on Cardassian side.
As far as diplomacy in general goes, the Federation can realistically offer much more beneficial bargain than being a client of Cardassians; but the problem remains that either we're just not believed on that account, or people doubt whether Federation will be able to marshal itself in case of decisive conflict. The size and peaceful overtures of the federation aren't as appealing when Cardassian fleet is much, much more closer to you.
cokerpilot
Here comes the rain.
... You know A part of me is worried that Cardassians are going to come in here and offer us a chance to make peace with the Syndicate. It would be complete bullshit, we would know it and they would know it, but they still would be presenting us a potential lose lose situation. Either we abandon our attack on the Syndicate, or they gain a narrative that they use to show everyone that we are in fact not the peace loving government we claim to be. It would explain why they have members of the Other Federation on board to act as wittiness.
At which point our diplomats point out that at no point has the Federation ever been at war with a nation-state called "The Syndicate". We have been aiding the democratically elected Orion government in law enforcement operations regarding a violent criminal organization of the same name however.
There is a reason people were against the suggestions to declare "war" on the Syndicate. It would have provided them recognition as a valid nation-state when legally speaking all they are right now is a particularly well armed gang.
cokerpilot
Here comes the rain.
I know that and you know that hell I even imagine the Cardies know that but if they spin it correctly they still have a dangerous tool they can us against both as propaganda and a tool on the negotiating table.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
There are rumors that one Syndicate mid-ranker surrendered after T'Lorel gave her an unfashionable Vulcanesque haircut. From orbit.
Her words were "message received and understood."
The big problem is that we have basically no way to "de-Syndicate" the legitimate organizations, other than maybe having them vetted one at a time by a telepath. We risk fighting the war all over again in twenty years, if we aren't careful.
Letting Syndicate cells surrender peacefully is a great idea- the catch is that we can't let them go on being a "not-Syndicate" organization.
All our actual Orion characters predicted this would become a civil war.
Honestly, i think we're going to have to provide an out for Orion 'conservatives' that ISN'T the Syndicate. To signal to the very powerful corporations and the transorionist factions that no, lining up with the Syndicate is not a good idea, it protects them, not you. But for the Syndicate itself, the only message we can really afford to send is "surrender, and find something else to do."
I KNOW, RIGHT?
It's not even that unjustified, if you live in the Americas; a lot of the interesting posts to this thread happen in the morning.
What who wait what?
Do you think we can trust the Cardassians to keep any promises they make regarding the status of Bajor? I'm quite sure they've made promises to the Bajorans, and I'm equally sure some or all of those promises haven't been kept. And we're only about two years into the occupation.
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If we can ensure that their other client species also see those promises and provide them updates on the Bajorans at regular intervals? Yes. The timeline here is different in that the Cardassians are propping up a client government, they're not invaders. If their other clients see them breaking promises to their puppets and engaging in acts of genocide against them, the Federation will start to look a lot more tempting...