- Location
- Patriarchova
If the Federation recognizes Celos' independence, we're launching a fucking coup.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
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- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
- Location
- Canada
Oh? I think that would set a dangerous precedent.
Namely, are the Cardassians, in recognizing so-called local "independence", conceding a right to local autonomy? Perhaps in a precedent-setting way that we can turn around and use anytime any of their clients is dissatisfied with their choice of political affiliation? There isn't really much in the way of interstellar law at this point, but the Cardassians, by their own actions, will be setting the relevant precedents. Any ground we give on this issue diplomatically is ground we gain on other issues... absent specific terms like "hands off Bajor", that is.
Regardless, the Cardassians won't be able to extend specific terms to protect all the assets they have or want. And whether or not we actually come to an agreement on allowable actions within claimed spheres of influence, anything the Cardassians do here sets unfortunate precedents for our future relations. (unfortunate for them, that is; the more words they speak in favour of local autonomy, the better it is for us)
Basically, diplomacy was an interesting choice of weapons for this engagement, and not one that we'd expected them to use... but it's still a weapon that we're much better at using than they are. As such, assuming that this is indeed their response, I read it as a tactical error on their part.
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aeqnai
Nerdy Homu
- Location
- Laniakea Supercluster
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Hm. Obviously this works in our favor, as we do need to stall for time... could there be, on the flipside, a reason the Cardassians would need to do the same, to motivate this? Some plan of theirs which will tip the equation in their favor (or so they think) that's worth the risk of the Celosian Syndicate possibly losing in the meantime and the effort of a diplomatic outreach...
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Ah, but that's different.
You see, the poor, oppressed people of Celos want to throw off the shackles of Federation tyranny. The people of Bajor on the other hand are happy to live under Cardassia's benevolent rule. The Bajoran "government"-in-exile are merely a bunch of rabble rousers who do not represent the majority of the Bajoran people.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
Once again we shall omake things. Although for once with names.
Lieutenant Adams' observations about Vulcans actually do not owe everything to the T'Lorel Maneuver. I'm also drawing on Spock in Balance of Terror where he was the voice advocating attack. The direct reference for what's being proposed would be this.
Also Oneiros forced me to rewrite this in the middle of it because new post, but oh well.
Lieutenant Adams' observations about Vulcans actually do not owe everything to the T'Lorel Maneuver. I'm also drawing on Spock in Balance of Terror where he was the voice advocating attack. The direct reference for what's being proposed would be this.
Also Oneiros forced me to rewrite this in the middle of it because new post, but oh well.
- Location
- USA
So do we still have time to finish capture Celos or has that passed? Also what we really need is a way to tie the Celos government to the torpedo detonation on Amarkia, if we can do that we pull the rug out from under them.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
On the Cardassian front:
Celos is a failed rebellion. Only one major urban area remains even partially under Syndicate control. It will be very easy to drag any negotiations out until the Celos issue is a moot point and the Syndicate-backed government is a government of nothing. The Cardassians may not be aware of this, but probably are. Thus, whatever they hope to do, they will have to do it quickly.
Celos is a failed rebellion. Only one major urban area remains even partially under Syndicate control. It will be very easy to drag any negotiations out until the Celos issue is a moot point and the Syndicate-backed government is a government of nothing. The Cardassians may not be aware of this, but probably are. Thus, whatever they hope to do, they will have to do it quickly.
Thors_Alumni
Proud member of Thors Class VII from Liberl
- Location
- Liberl Zemuria.
How far away from Celos is Enterprise right now? Can she get there before the Cardassian envoy arrives?
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A thought on Bajor:
People seem to have given up on Bajor and said "welp, the occupation will go as badly as it did on the TV show, will end, and we'll come in and sweep up the pieces".
Well, what if it doesn't go like it did on the show? What if the occupation were better? Or worse?
It occurs to me that one of the opportunities we have in the Celos crisis is an opportunity to get the Cardassians to agree to standards for treating clients which might greatly stabilize the Cardassian-Federation borderzone. However, almost certainly the cost will be to strengthen the Cardassian position on Bajor.
That may not be an entirely bad thing if we can make it so that the Cardassians have some buy-in to accord Bajorans with some modicum of respect and allow them a decent degree of autonomy. To make the occupation of Bajor more like the experience Poland had as a Soviet "ally" rather than as a Nazi occupied region.
fasquardon
People seem to have given up on Bajor and said "welp, the occupation will go as badly as it did on the TV show, will end, and we'll come in and sweep up the pieces".
Well, what if it doesn't go like it did on the show? What if the occupation were better? Or worse?
It occurs to me that one of the opportunities we have in the Celos crisis is an opportunity to get the Cardassians to agree to standards for treating clients which might greatly stabilize the Cardassian-Federation borderzone. However, almost certainly the cost will be to strengthen the Cardassian position on Bajor.
That may not be an entirely bad thing if we can make it so that the Cardassians have some buy-in to accord Bajorans with some modicum of respect and allow them a decent degree of autonomy. To make the occupation of Bajor more like the experience Poland had as a Soviet "ally" rather than as a Nazi occupied region.
fasquardon
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Alastor Mobius Toth
***** ***
- Location
- Neon Ghetto
Cardassia: Free Celos
UFP: Free Bajor
Cardassians:
Federation:
inb4 this:
As someone born in Poland from a family that was exiled from the East by our "benevolent" Soviet allies, I am inclined to unironically break your face. The "difference" was that Nazis were at least willing to admit they viewed us as inferior subhuman lifeforms before they killed us, unlike the Russian trash that would shoot us in the back and pretend it never happened.
"Modicum of respect" my fucking ass.
UFP: Free Bajor
Cardassians:
Federation:
inb4 this:
As someone born in Poland from a family that was exiled from the East by our "benevolent" Soviet allies, I am inclined to unironically break your face. The "difference" was that Nazis were at least willing to admit they viewed us as inferior subhuman lifeforms before they killed us, unlike the Russian trash that would shoot us in the back and pretend it never happened.
"Modicum of respect" my fucking ass.
To make the Corporate Republic a viable state, they'll need more than one, admittedly major province. I mean, it could persist for quite a long time as a micro-state on the galactic scale like Andorra or Monaco. Either the Cardassians accept it being folded back into the Union with concessions from us, they tell us to leave it as-is for no net change in their position, or they press for it to be expanded, which means quid-pro-quo is in effect and we can make requests of them.
Derek58
Rocket Punch is Best Punch
- Location
- Getter Valhalla
God bless your vulcan heart, Captain Rocks
And the Cardiassians coming to negotiate...if this was a 2-parter I'd be counting the days until the next ep, it's getting really tense. Only a little more good luck and we'll have resolved the crisis quite well.
And the Cardiassians coming to negotiate...if this was a 2-parter I'd be counting the days until the next ep, it's getting really tense. Only a little more good luck and we'll have resolved the crisis quite well.
- Location
- Location: Location!
True, but if we're metagaming, I want the Bajoran wormhole to fall into our side of the frontier before it gets discovered. Do not underestimate the strategic and scientific value of that thing.
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Honestly. I'd be satisfied with an independent Bajor acting as a buffer between Cardassia and the UFP, much as we've been considering a similar arrangement with the Sotaw in the Romulan Neutral Zone. The Bajorans get their independence from outside domination, the Cardassians deny us a forward operating base against them, and the Federation gets to feel morally superior.
Everybody wins!
[Edit]
Hell, given how much at risk the system has turned out to be, we could even hand Lapycorias and Starbase 9 over to the Bajorans, making them a much tougher customer overall.
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- Location
- Location: Location!
I wouldn't mind a buffer state squeezed between us, and I don't really like the Bajorans; a solution like the US has with Guantanamo or Okinawa would suffice, but I really want that wormhole...
I am quite familiar with the story of families like yours, so I can understand why you'd be upset by what I said. That's not an excuse to treat what the Germans did in Poland casually however.
Bringing this back to the game.
The fact remains that the UFP is not willing to go to war for Bajor. The fact remains that the Federation can do very little to change Cardassian outlooks and policy.
I still don't like the casual acceptance of people that the litany of crimes committed by the Cardassian occupation of Bajor (work camps, the murder of millions, rapes, torture, political murders, environmental vandalism) and that it will just end on its own and the players can scoop Bajor up afterwards.
I would like to find ways to make things better for TBG's Bajor. I would like to find ways, however small, of changing Cardassian outlooks and policy.
My idea in this case is to make it in the Cardassian interest to maintain a strong puppet government on Bajor - one that means the Cardassians are constrained by SOME sort of rule of law and one that means the Bajoran government is strong enough to pull away from Cardassian dominion when their economy starts to falter. (And once THAT happens, then the Federation can move in with the usual assimilation machine and we can either bring Bajor in as a member or keep them as an ally or keep them as a friendly neutral buffer state.) It would hardly be good, but it would at least be better than what happened to Bajor in the show.
If you have better ideas that don't lead to a war that would kill billions, I am certainly am open to hearing them.
Fair point. I'd been forgetting the wormhole.
The Cardassians discovering it and going and poking the Dominion over in the Gamma Quadrant would be a real... Um... Bad thing.
fasquardon
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- He/Him
You assume it exists in this continuity; I wouldn't be so sure about that. From what I understand, OneirosTheWriter has already shifted the locations of Bajor and Cardassia relative to one another for this game; I wouldn't be surprised if he changes around other interesting details of local astrography as well.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Ok, hold up there. Are we unwilling to go to war in the face of convincing evidence of ongoing genocide? In the context of an interstellar power engaging in the attempted extermination of a sapient species? I suspect that even the Pacifists might be swayed in that case-remember that Councilor Stesk's commitment to peace is based in a balanced philosophy incorporating both logic and emotion, and genocide is one hell of a counterweight.
- Location
- Central Standard Time
T'Lorel Maneuver Accurate.
Considering how extreme the Federation was shown to be about the Prime Directive in some books and episodes, it is quite possible we WOULD face opposition on this. Councilors might say "but starfleet lets non-warp capable species nuke themselves into oblivion all the time, why are these Bajorans so special?"
Though really, I hope the TBG UFP is a bit more sensible than that. Picard's Enterprise was shown secretly interfering in order to save pre-warp species from extinction at least once, which makes for a far better precedent for us.
fasquardon
Derek58
Rocket Punch is Best Punch
- Location
- Getter Valhalla
Sure, but Star Trek was all over the fucking place with how it handled the Prime Directive in the shows (never read the books myself). I'm confident that Oneiros will have the Federation follow it much more sensibly.
Quite a few of the people reading this quest have a soft spot for the Bajorans - one that technically shouldn't exist in this quest as it from a different source - a source that may have little common ground by the time the time lines match.
Technically, we should just be treating the same as everyone else. Instead we knee jerked a diplomatic push that saw the Cardies accelerate their plans and the occupation starting early.
Technically, we should just be treating the same as everyone else. Instead we knee jerked a diplomatic push that saw the Cardies accelerate their plans and the occupation starting early.
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Considering how this Orion Civil War has blown up in our faces, the proponents of non-interference may have a point.
It's possible that the Cardassian demands might include not ratifying the Apiata or Indorians. That's what I would demand in exchange for letting Celos go unanswered.
Personally, I rather dislike the Bajoran culture.
If we can encourage the Klingons to moderate their behavior toward their slave races or encourage the Romulans to treat their clients better I'd be all for that too.
Getting the neighbours to behave better improves the security of the whole region. Since trust is made easier.
fasquardon