- Location
- Infraspace
Oops! Looks like most people, myself included, copy-pasted or wrote STFT2 instead of SFTF2! Something to be aware of.
Edit: is this something we should correct on our votes, or will it be OK to leave as-is?
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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
-
- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
Edit: is this something we should correct on our votes, or will it be OK to leave as-is?
The fault is in the original post with the choices.
Thors_Alumni
Proud member of Thors Class VII from Liberl
- Location
- Liberl Zemuria.
I copy pasted my vote and two of the ones that have my name on them are ones I don't agree with so I am changing my vote ASAP!
These ships are unassigned, right? Fast track them to the CBZ fleet. It's actually really thin, even with the Starbase I think the CBZ fleet could easily be defeated by the 3 Jaldun plus their Bajor garrison.
ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
Yes, this is a spoof their signals, and hack their media filters. My personal thoughts are we could pull that kind of thing off once or twice better than 50/50.
Thors_Alumni
Proud member of Thors Class VII from Liberl
- Location
- Liberl Zemuria.
[ ][SOE] Arrange for an SoE immediately following a Cardassian guarantee for Celos
[ ][SFTF1] Support Operations on Freedom
[ ][STFT2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[ ][UETF] Conduct blockade at Celos
[ ][ATF] Escort shipping
[ ][SBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 8 at Vega
[ ][DIPLO] Request the Indorians send their forces to Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
[ ][SFTF1] Support Operations on Freedom
[ ][STFT2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[ ][UETF] Conduct blockade at Celos
[ ][ATF] Escort shipping
[ ][SBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 8 at Vega
[ ][DIPLO] Request the Indorians send their forces to Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
Actually, a better deployment would be to strip the Avandar and Salnas from Amarkia and Ferasa respectively and replace them with the Korolev and Saratoga, as that will mean faster time to the front.
Are you talking "holy shit war were declared" redeployment or "ordinary vote next quarter" redeployment? Because there's a reason the ships at Avandar and Salnas are high-Presence.
My tentative plans for the three "hot" border zones (assuming war doesn't break out) next quarter are:
CBZ = 1 Excelsior, 1 Connie-B, 2 Escorts, Starbase
SBZ = 1 Excelsior, 1 Connie-B, 2 Escorts, Starbase
GBZ = 1 Excelsior, 2 Connie-Bs, 2 Escorts, no starbase
With the remaining 3 Connie-Bs being at the anti-Syndicate Task Force, Sol, and Vulcan*.
*I know it seems like a weird choice, but Vulcan has a high Defense requirement and it actually frees up more Combat to go to the front.
- Location
- Location: Location!
@OneirosTheWriter, there's a mistake on the task label of these two votes. That makes it really hard to tally. I'm guessing the form I highlighted in blue is the correct one, standing for "StarFleet Task Force", rather than "Star Trek Fleet of Task" or whatever the red one is supposed to mean.
Jesus, we have TWO MORE coming out next Quarter.
In the case of eminent war, the CBZ fleet is woefully unequipped to handle the Cardassian Border fleet plus their immediate reinforcements.
This really isn't enough. I do agree with pushing the Constellations to garrison duty but it doesn't seem right to have Connie-Bs more than a sector away from the front. They're no better than Centaur-As.
In the case of eminent war, the CBZ fleet is woefully unequipped to handle the Cardassian Border fleet plus their immediate reinforcements.
This really isn't enough. I do agree with pushing the Constellations to garrison duty but it doesn't seem right to have Connie-Bs more than a sector away from the front. They're no better than Centaur-As.
Anyone running the tally program can run a vote merge easily enough.
- Location
- Location: Location!
How do you merge tasks?
Vulcan is annoying because it has a D12 requirement and a Starbase providing D5. So to get that extra D7 you can put in a Constellation and 2 Mirandas (9 Combat total) or a Constitution and 1 Miranda (8 Combat total). Or a Constitution and 2 Oberths I guess, but that really is a waste. Or maybe a Constellation, a Centaur-A, and an Oberth.? Of course, maybe the extra durability of the Connie-B is worth more than the extra Combat point you're losing from the front, but it's not an easy call. Sol Sector is in a similar position, but since that is our most important sector I really do think we need at least a Connie-B there as sector flagship in addition to the "wasting combat" problem.
Interested in your thoughts on the trade-offs!
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Go to Manage Votes. RIght click on the vote that is wrong. Select the correct task.
Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
A quick report on our EC ships in the case of war.
Enterprise is past the Gabriel Expanse, having just contacted the Dyrillians. It would likely take her at least one, probably two weeks to reach the Apiata homeworld. As she is though, she is well positioned to launch flanking raids on Cardassian ships as they flood the border. As our single most powerful ship, this may be an unacceptable risk though.
Courageous was last seen meeting with the Yrillians, and is presumably still in that area. She could go to Vega to assist the UE ships there (although the Liberty is likely there already) or try to rendezvous with the SBZ garrison to protect Tales Har.
Sarek was last seen conducting exercises with the Apiata navy. They could simply assist the Apiata, or try to rendezvous with the CBZ fleet at Lapycorias. A third possibility is that they attempt to cross the Expanse and link up with Enterprise. This would obviously be extremely risky, but would put an extremely potent and mobile force on the Cardassians flank and force them to divert a large part of their fleet to protect their coreward border.
S'Harien is in the Apinae Sector, and her options are much the same as Sarek's.
One other thing to note is that Stargazer and the Kadeshi flotilla were meant to stop in Apinae this quarter to prepare for crossing the Gabriel Expanse. If war breaks out it may be that it is too dangerous for the Kadeshi to cross the Expanse. This would potentially free up another explorer for the duration of the conflict, although I can't imagine anyone likes putting off the Kadeshi exodus. They could try to force the crossing, but if the Sydraxians and Cardassians both join the war then we would want a strong escort to get them across the Expanse.
Enterprise is past the Gabriel Expanse, having just contacted the Dyrillians. It would likely take her at least one, probably two weeks to reach the Apiata homeworld. As she is though, she is well positioned to launch flanking raids on Cardassian ships as they flood the border. As our single most powerful ship, this may be an unacceptable risk though.
Courageous was last seen meeting with the Yrillians, and is presumably still in that area. She could go to Vega to assist the UE ships there (although the Liberty is likely there already) or try to rendezvous with the SBZ garrison to protect Tales Har.
Sarek was last seen conducting exercises with the Apiata navy. They could simply assist the Apiata, or try to rendezvous with the CBZ fleet at Lapycorias. A third possibility is that they attempt to cross the Expanse and link up with Enterprise. This would obviously be extremely risky, but would put an extremely potent and mobile force on the Cardassians flank and force them to divert a large part of their fleet to protect their coreward border.
S'Harien is in the Apinae Sector, and her options are much the same as Sarek's.
One other thing to note is that Stargazer and the Kadeshi flotilla were meant to stop in Apinae this quarter to prepare for crossing the Gabriel Expanse. If war breaks out it may be that it is too dangerous for the Kadeshi to cross the Expanse. This would potentially free up another explorer for the duration of the conflict, although I can't imagine anyone likes putting off the Kadeshi exodus. They could try to force the crossing, but if the Sydraxians and Cardassians both join the war then we would want a strong escort to get them across the Expanse.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
[X][SOE] Arrange for an SoE immediately following a Cardassian guarantee for Celos
[X][SFTF1] Support Operations on Freedom
[X][SFTF2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[X][UETF] Conduct blockade at Celos
[X][ATF] Escort shipping
[X][SBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 8 at Vega
[X][DIPLO] Remain focused on Sydraxians
Overall, I've been convinced that the benefits of having an SOE in the event of war outweigh the possibility of the Cardassians making a guarantee they have no intention of backing up - it's not something a rational actor would do, and it runs completely counter to their known xenopsyche.
[X][SFTF1] Support Operations on Freedom
[X][SFTF2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[X][UETF] Conduct blockade at Celos
[X][ATF] Escort shipping
[X][SBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 8 at Vega
[X][DIPLO] Remain focused on Sydraxians
Overall, I've been convinced that the benefits of having an SOE in the event of war outweigh the possibility of the Cardassians making a guarantee they have no intention of backing up - it's not something a rational actor would do, and it runs completely counter to their known xenopsyche.
Oh geeze. If war does break out, I can't imagine the Cardassians allowing a mysterious 60 million ton ship pass by into a potential flanking position.
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I would need to see the entire deployment. But for event response, a Centaur-A has the same S and P. I would honestly consider that Constellation+Centaur+Oberth deployment. We want Mirandas and Con-Bs out towards potential conflict zones, and the Oberth isn't wasted because lol Romulans.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
[EDIT: Going back to my vote to correct the spelling of the Task Force Two order]
While I recognize that the Biophage is far from the "least serious" problem that would justify a state of emergency...
My fundamental point here is that the state of emergency is not a diplomatic tool we should be trying to use to manipulate the opinions of foreign governments. It's not about achieving some desired state of "wow the Federation is mega serious" in the minds of foreign governments. It's about giving dictatorial powers to the head of the military, who will hopefully give up those powers when she's good and ready. And doing so because the alternative is along the lines of "the destruction of the Federation."
It's not about the Cardassians. Ultimately, it's about us. It was made clear during the Biophage crisis that there is constitutional language in the Federation Charter that enables the commander of Starfleet to essentially declare themselves a dictator during an emergency, IF that emergency poses sufficient threat to the Federation to justify the necessity.
The last time we actually declared a state of emergency, it was because a giant horror-monster was literally threatening to eat the galaxy, in so many words. We needed to mobilize civilian Federation assets to fight the Biophage, or we'd end up losing many thousands of colonists and feeding it huge amounts of biomass and Federation technology. And we knew we needed to do that before we declared the state of emergency.
The last time we considered declaring a state of emergency, that was a lot more like this crisis. There was a very real chance that the Cardassians were planning to invade us. One of their ships actually DID penetrate our space, without announcing its intentions. For all we knew, it was planning to launch a multi-million-casualty attack that would make what just happened to the Amarki capital look small by comparison. We had no evidence indicating otherwise, until the end of the 'Grey October' crisis.
And even in the face of that level of "oh crap," it was made pretty clear that if we declared one lightly and it turned out to be a false alarm, we were putting Kahurangi's job on the chopping block and taking a huge hit to Starfleet's political credibility. While we aren't being explicitly told that such a gamble is in play right now, that should inform our decision-making process.
...
It's not that we should be afraid of the state of emergency if we think there IS an emergency on the level of "existential threat to the Federation." It's that we shouldn't declare one unless we actually need it.
We shouldn't declare it unless we specifically expect urgent need of the powers it gives us to command parts of the Federation not normally under our control. If we can deal with the current, apparent problem using our control over the fleet under High Alert, and our ability to preposition member world fleets within their own sectors... Then we don't declare a state of emergency. And we don't pre-commit to declaring a state of emergency before we know we need it.
So again, we shouldn't declare a state of emergency we don't need.
We shouldn't use the state of emergency to send some kind of "clear message" to a foreign nation that obviously doesn't pay much attention to our messages and may not even be capable of understanding them correctly.
We shouldn't use the state of emergency to signal our resolve.
We should use the state of emergency for, and only for, its stated purpose: to permit mobilization of non-Starfleet assets in the face of a specific, imminent, known crisis that is large enough to pose an existential threat to the Federation.
While I recognize that the Biophage is far from the "least serious" problem that would justify a state of emergency...
My fundamental point here is that the state of emergency is not a diplomatic tool we should be trying to use to manipulate the opinions of foreign governments. It's not about achieving some desired state of "wow the Federation is mega serious" in the minds of foreign governments. It's about giving dictatorial powers to the head of the military, who will hopefully give up those powers when she's good and ready. And doing so because the alternative is along the lines of "the destruction of the Federation."
The catch is that a state of emergency isn't about the Cardassians, or about what message we send to the Cardassians. It is not just another diplomatic tool we use to communicate "we are very pissed off and very serious" to a foreign power.
It's not about the Cardassians. Ultimately, it's about us. It was made clear during the Biophage crisis that there is constitutional language in the Federation Charter that enables the commander of Starfleet to essentially declare themselves a dictator during an emergency, IF that emergency poses sufficient threat to the Federation to justify the necessity.
The last time we actually declared a state of emergency, it was because a giant horror-monster was literally threatening to eat the galaxy, in so many words. We needed to mobilize civilian Federation assets to fight the Biophage, or we'd end up losing many thousands of colonists and feeding it huge amounts of biomass and Federation technology. And we knew we needed to do that before we declared the state of emergency.
The last time we considered declaring a state of emergency, that was a lot more like this crisis. There was a very real chance that the Cardassians were planning to invade us. One of their ships actually DID penetrate our space, without announcing its intentions. For all we knew, it was planning to launch a multi-million-casualty attack that would make what just happened to the Amarki capital look small by comparison. We had no evidence indicating otherwise, until the end of the 'Grey October' crisis.
And even in the face of that level of "oh crap," it was made pretty clear that if we declared one lightly and it turned out to be a false alarm, we were putting Kahurangi's job on the chopping block and taking a huge hit to Starfleet's political credibility. While we aren't being explicitly told that such a gamble is in play right now, that should inform our decision-making process.
...
It's not that we should be afraid of the state of emergency if we think there IS an emergency on the level of "existential threat to the Federation." It's that we shouldn't declare one unless we actually need it.
We shouldn't declare it unless we specifically expect urgent need of the powers it gives us to command parts of the Federation not normally under our control. If we can deal with the current, apparent problem using our control over the fleet under High Alert, and our ability to preposition member world fleets within their own sectors... Then we don't declare a state of emergency. And we don't pre-commit to declaring a state of emergency before we know we need it.
So again, we shouldn't declare a state of emergency we don't need.
We shouldn't use the state of emergency to send some kind of "clear message" to a foreign nation that obviously doesn't pay much attention to our messages and may not even be capable of understanding them correctly.
We shouldn't use the state of emergency to signal our resolve.
We should use the state of emergency for, and only for, its stated purpose: to permit mobilization of non-Starfleet assets in the face of a specific, imminent, known crisis that is large enough to pose an existential threat to the Federation.
I took a look and I had a Constellation + Centaur + Oberth deployment in Apinae Sector. So I could switch that to Vulcan and send Apinae the Constitution + Miranda combo formerly assigned to Vulcan. That would meet your request to keep the Connies "1 sector from the front". Would that work for you?
My opinion is that if the Cardassians declare Celos under protection, then even before that message reaches us a Cardassian first-strike is already underway, one that will wipe the CBZ fleet at Starbase 9 and cascade into the desperate defense of the Apinae sector. It puts billions of Federation citizens in the Apinae sector under direct threat of hostile occupation. That is the logic behind declaring a State of Emergency.
- Location
- Central Standard Time
Still, we have enough time to mobilize, especially if we skirmish
We do not. The Cardassians control the timing. It's a very real possibility that we don't even receive the declaration of protection until they've already hit the CBZ fleet.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
[Spelling revised, new version of my vote]
[][SOE] Do not request a State of Emergency
[][SFTF1] Support Operations on Celos
[][SFTF2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[][UETF] Support Operations on Freedom
[][ATF] Escort shipping
[][CBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
[][SBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 8 at Vega
[][DIPLO] Request the Indorians send their forces to Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
Because if so... what's to stop the Cardassians from hitting us with this massive first strike first, and then informing us of their intention to protect Celos second? If you're right, we should declare a State of Emergency NOW and eat the militarization cost as the price of being prepared against this devastating first strike. We shouldn't wait for the Cardassians to send us a letter informing us of their intent to attack first.
The Cardassians are not famous for being sportsmanlike. They will not feel any obligation to send us such a letter until it is far, far too late to prepare against their attack.
...
The last time the Cardassians did anything remotely like "mass for an invasion," we saw their fleets coming weeks in advance. Assuming they're planning a massive pre-emptive attack, the response is to secure our own forces.
We don't do that by declaring a State of Emergency.
We do that by getting the bulk of Starfleet ships moving toward the threatened area to reinforce it (which we can do under High Alert). We do it by having the dangerously exposed fleets link up to form stronger forces that can defend themselves (which we accomplish by having the Indorions meet up with the Cardassian Border Zone fleet as per the DIPLO option and the CBZ option I have).
I mean, we did a pretty good job of preparing a defense against Cardassian invasion during Grey October, and we didn't declare a State of Emergency then. We didn't have to.
Will declaring "we'll declare the state of emergency only after the Cardassians send us a letter informing us of their intent to protect Celos" do anything to protect the CBZ fleet? Because that's what you and most others are voting to do. How does it help, if what you actually expect is for the Cardassians to just up and launch a sneak attack as per Pearl Harbor, then inform us of their diplomatic reasons for doing so after they've already attacked?
The vote in favor of "declare SoE if the Cardassians extend a guarantee to Celos" only makes sense if we assume there will be time to react after the guarantee to Celos. Otherwise, we might as well just declare a state of emergency now and have done with it.
[][SOE] Do not request a State of Emergency
[][SFTF1] Support Operations on Celos
[][SFTF2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[][UETF] Support Operations on Freedom
[][ATF] Escort shipping
[][CBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
[][SBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 8 at Vega
[][DIPLO] Request the Indorians send their forces to Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
Are we to assume that this Cardassian first strike is invisible and undetectable, and that the first notice we'll get of it is a Cardassian declaration of intent to protect Celos?
Because if so... what's to stop the Cardassians from hitting us with this massive first strike first, and then informing us of their intention to protect Celos second? If you're right, we should declare a State of Emergency NOW and eat the militarization cost as the price of being prepared against this devastating first strike. We shouldn't wait for the Cardassians to send us a letter informing us of their intent to attack first.
The Cardassians are not famous for being sportsmanlike. They will not feel any obligation to send us such a letter until it is far, far too late to prepare against their attack.
...
The last time the Cardassians did anything remotely like "mass for an invasion," we saw their fleets coming weeks in advance. Assuming they're planning a massive pre-emptive attack, the response is to secure our own forces.
We don't do that by declaring a State of Emergency.
We do that by getting the bulk of Starfleet ships moving toward the threatened area to reinforce it (which we can do under High Alert). We do it by having the dangerously exposed fleets link up to form stronger forces that can defend themselves (which we accomplish by having the Indorions meet up with the Cardassian Border Zone fleet as per the DIPLO option and the CBZ option I have).
I mean, we did a pretty good job of preparing a defense against Cardassian invasion during Grey October, and we didn't declare a State of Emergency then. We didn't have to.
Will declaring a State of Emergency do anything to protect the CBZ fleet in the short term? If not, then the danger to the CBZ fleet cannot be addressed by promising to declare a state of emergency. That fleet must be given orders that will keep it secure while allowing it to remain a threat to the Cardassians- a "fleet in being" until we can bolster it.
Will declaring "we'll declare the state of emergency only after the Cardassians send us a letter informing us of their intent to protect Celos" do anything to protect the CBZ fleet? Because that's what you and most others are voting to do. How does it help, if what you actually expect is for the Cardassians to just up and launch a sneak attack as per Pearl Harbor, then inform us of their diplomatic reasons for doing so after they've already attacked?
The vote in favor of "declare SoE if the Cardassians extend a guarantee to Celos" only makes sense if we assume there will be time to react after the guarantee to Celos. Otherwise, we might as well just declare a state of emergency now and have done with it.
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You agree that a war with Cardassia justifies a SOE, right?
Okay, let me try this as an analogy. Pretend that Cardassia is an angry, scary neighbor who has terrorized us for years, making threats and fondling his weapon while pacing in front of the border between our lots while staring menacingly at us. Because we are nations we live in an anarchy and there is no police force to call for protection. We have to deal with it ourselves. One day we are in our yard dealing with a venomous snake that has been attacking our animals and is trying to strike at us. Our angry neighbor, who has been looking for an excuse for years, yells at us across the border. "I fucking love snakes! You let that snake alone or I'm going to come over there and make you!" Holding his weapon in hand, he begins advancing slowly towards our border.
Now. Do we grab our weapon immediately or wait until he crosses to our yard?
He might be bluffing. He's puffed himself up before. If we grab a weapon he's probably going to stop going slowly and start running at us. Or maybe he'll back off, who knows.
If we wait, though, our weapon isn't close at hand. It's some distance away. If we let the neighbor get too close, he can probably chase us down and hurt us before we can get our hands around our weapon and begin hurting him back. We're big; we can take some hits, but it'll hurt a lot and some injuries may be permanent.
Of course, maybe he's just posturing like he has before. If we don't jump for our weapon right now, maybe we can ask him if he really cares about a snake in someone else's yard. He's real mean, but he doesn't love pain. But on the on the other hand maybe he thinks if he can start hitting us before we grab our weapon, that's the only way he'll ever win the fight he's wanted for so long.
What to do, what to do?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The thing is, our "reach for our weapon" option is High Alert, not State of Emergency. We're already there. We have exactly as much freedom to mobilize our forces as we did during Grey October. And I don't recall anyone fretting during Grey October that we were failing to mobilize our forces to react to the Cardassian threat. Quite the opposite, it was pretty much universally agreed upon that we were doing an okay job of doing so.
There was disagreement about exactly where to send our forces, but no one was saying "you know, if the Cardassians are actually going to hit us, we're unready, we need more power to issue orders to civilians and member worlds or we're in trouble."
If the Cardassians are mobilizing heavy fleets to overrun our border, we respond by moving up ships. We don't need the State of Emergency to do that. Therefore, we should not declare the State of Emergency to "allow us to respond" to the Cardassian threats. Not until we know the problem actually is one that needs "Sousa assumes dictatorial powers and gives them up when she feels like it" as a solution.
We already have everything we need in order to 'reach for our weapon.' At High Alert we can order basically every ship in Starfleet except for a few Constellations and Centaurs or whatever other dribs and drabs we feel like leaving behind.
...
[It has occurred to me that if we were dealing with a more Romulanesque opponent, one of their winning long term strategies might well be to bait Starfleet admirals into declaring states of emergency over and over, only to not show up to the party over and over. Eventually, Federation politicians start getting weary and distrustful of having one admiral after another declare themselves temporary dictator, and begin distrusting Starfleet's "jingoistic overreaction" to crises. We know Federation politicians don't like the state of emergency and we have good reason to believe that it will go hard with a Starfleet admiral who declares one lightly. Fortunately for us, the Cardassians probably aren't savvy enough to think of something like this, but I wouldn't bet against it]
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