We explicitly weren't given a write in option, though? And at least one player voiced not wanting write ins because they bog things down, and a few share the sentiment?
Well, we've got a massive bandwagon in favor of an option that doesn't make sense in the context of the very justifications being given for voting for it...

As far as I can determine, it picked up so much support simply because it's the "middle" option, and therefore automatically seems better than the "too peaceful" and "too warlike" options on either side of it.

I'm doing this as a protest more than anything else.

...that's a convincing argument, actually. "Peace" isn't actually an option on the table; our options are "Prepare for War" or "Try to Stall". Admittedly, the strategic situation is such that it'd be nice if we could stall. But my personal read is that attempting to do so makes the war more likely, not less, on account of Cardassian belligerence. Remember that they have spies, too, and our information security is pretty bad. Since we know that we'd prefer to fight the war with Cardassia later, it's a safe bet that they know we'd like that, too. Since they want a war, then, they know they need to strike sooner, rather than later... and since we can assume that they know that, we need to be ready for a war now. Maybe they'll back off for a bit if we get on a war footing right now. But if they don't, it's still not exactly fair to say that we started the war. We're just going to get everything on the best possible defensive footing, since all indications suggest that the Cardassians are about to start a war. If that doesn't happen, great. If that does happen, we're ready for it.

Changing my vote to a modification of Derek58's plan; let's have a State of Emergency now. If we're going to do it, there's very little reason to wait, and a chance that it might let us defuse the war.
At least you're being consistent, and I have considerable respect for that. I may disagree with exactly what you think is best, but I cannot deny you're thinking coherently and responding rationally to what you believe the situation to be.

[bows]

EDIT: Although, @Blackshard, I really think you should consider having the diplomats focus on the Indorions. One of our worst case scenarios if the Cardassians attack us is that they'll rush Lapycorias with a major fleet from Bajor, and roll over the CBZ fleet with sheer numbers, then proceed to beat up the Indorions while we have no ships within weeks of travel time available to protect them.

Having the CBZ fleet and the Indorions link up in the same place so they can't be picked off separately would be a HUGE step in making sure the war doesn't begin with any major disasters for us. In my honest opinion, it will do more to ensure the security of our forces and prepare us for war than the state of emergency would.

Well the vote as written says otherwise because it explicitly says it makes a difference. So I can believe your logic, or I can believe the text of the vote without worrying about the underlying logic.

I'm just going to assume the SOE gives +X to Combat rolls. Or -X to Combat rolls if we didn't take it. Without worrying about exactly what is going on in the fiction to justify it.
Personally, I have chosen to believe that the game runs on logic, and that our ships don't magically gain superpowers because the head of Starfleet assumed dictatorial powers, that they would not otherwise have when explicitly told to be on high alert and warned of imminent attack by the enemy they've been preparing to fight for five years.

I do this because frankly, if the game ceases to behave as if it runs on logic, I should probably find something else to do with my free time. Trying to keep track of a game whose mechanics violate logic when there is no compelling need for them to do so is needlessly stressful for me.

Let's be honest here - we will most likely not avoid war.

It might not erupt over this. It might not erupt tomorrow. But Cardassians want war, and they've staked their entire prestige on opposing us. Frankly, the Federation has displayed outstanding amounts of patience and understanding against a power that has explicitly rejected any appeal to reason and diplomacy and which has been actively undermining our diplomacy with other races.

They have actually displayed willingness to cooperate with people that nuke our capital cities.

Wars were fought - are being fought - over entirely less serious pretenses.

And no, I do not believe that "peace with Romulans" is worth letting Cardassia continue to get away with its bullshit, undermine our diplomatic efforts and actively destabilize our client states. If we want peace, we must first be at peace, and if Cardassians are willing to go an extra mile to threaten it, then they gotta go.

Also, if Romulans don't want to fight with us, they might as well not start stupid wars :V
It's really that simple.

While we're at that... It literally says this is the surest option of peace in event Cardassians don't push us. You cannot be clearer than that. And if Cardassians actually go through with this crazy idea, we're functionally at war and no amount of wishful thinking will save you.

It's literally going "You know, Cardassians might actually go through with this thing, and realistically this thing mean war. War is emergency. We should maybe prepare to take steps should that happen, but since we're not actually at war yet, let's not make it loud."
No, it isn't! It is doing nothing, until such time as the Cardassians notify us that they intend to fight to protect Celos.

I suppose it would avoid a state of emergency if the Cardassians don't push us... But you are already convinced that the Cardassians have every intention of pushing us. Everything you says indicates that they will push. If you're right, we might as well declare the State of Emergency now, and have done with it. After all, we're under no obligation to attack the Cardassians if they (miraculously) decide not to push.

Me, I take it as a given that the Cardassians will push, but think we can absorb and defeat a small push without needing to resort to a state of emergency... and that we'll know in advance if they're readying a big push. We can therefore declare a state of emergency if they ready a big push, while not declaring one if they ready a small push we can defeat without one.

But you, who expect a big Cardassian push or NO push, should surely favor either immediately declaring a state of emergency (to defend against the big push), or waiting and not drawing a "red line" (in case the big push might not yet arrive).

Instead, you propose to commit us to declaring the state of emergency... but you tie it to a trigger condition the Cardassians can fire or not fire whenever they want! They are free to attack us before they make any guarantees to Celos. If they were planning to attack us preemptively anyway, that is exactly what they'll do, just like the Japanese at Pearl Harbor.

You are not being restrained or logical here. You are simply picking the option intermediate between "hawk" and "dove" and assuming it must be the correct choice.

Either we should start the extra preparations now, or we should wait for more evidence of a big Cardassian offensive before starting the extra preparations. We gain nothing by saying "we promise to start the extra preparations after you write the Celosians a letter that we think constitutes an act of war against us."
 
Last edited:
Well the vote as written says otherwise because it explicitly says it makes a difference. So I can believe your logic, or I can believe the text of the vote without worrying about the underlying logic.

I'm just going to assume the SOE gives +X to Combat rolls. Or -X to Combat rolls if we didn't take it. Without worrying about exactly what is going on in the fiction to justify it.
I mean, it doesn't do that? It just says it guarantees war in case of a "guarantee of independence" and "increases chances of peace short of that." On the other hand, not requesting the SoE has the lowest chance of escalation, at the cost of not giving us "the maximum preparation if war still breaks out anyway." I think reading that as giving any bonuses to combat is really really dangerous, and really really questionable too. Asking for the SoE would be more likely to do what you're talking about.

As things stand, the Cardassians aren't committed yet, and are waiting to see what the situation is when their units actually arrive on scene, that means the flashpoint is going to be Celos and not a full scale invasion by the Cardassians right off the bat.

Frankly, the "[ ][SOE] Arrange for an SoE immediately following a Cardassian guarantee for Celos" option does seem to be the worst of both worlds (doesn't give room to negotiate and stall, but also doesn't give any actual benefits from the Emergency powers).
 
Last edited:
Well, we've got a massive bandwagon in favor of an option that doesn't make sense in the context of the very justifications being given for voting for it...

As far as I can determine, it picked up so much support simply because it's the "middle" option, and therefore automatically seems better than the "too peaceful" and "too warlike" options on either side of it.

I'm doing this as a protest more than anything else.

At least you're being consistent, and I have considerable respect for that. I may disagree with exactly what you think is best, but I cannot deny you're thinking coherently and responding rationally to what you believe the situation to be.

[bows]

EDIT: Although, @Blackshard, I really think you should consider having the diplomats focus on the Indorions. One of our worst case scenarios if the Cardassians attack us is that they'll rush Lapycorias with a major fleet from Bajor, and roll over the CBZ fleet with sheer numbers, then proceed to beat up the Indorions while we have no ships within weeks of travel time available to protect them.

Having the CBZ fleet and the Indorions link up in the same place so they can't be picked off separately would be a HUGE step in making sure the war doesn't begin with any major disasters for us. In my honest opinion, it will do more to ensure the security of our forces and prepare us for war than the state of emergency would.

Personally, I have chosen to believe that the game runs on logic, and that our ships don't magically gain superpowers because the head of Starfleet assumed dictatorial powers, that they would not otherwise have when explicitly told to be on high alert and warned of imminent attack by the enemy they've been preparing to fight for five years.

I do this because frankly, if the game ceases to behave as if it runs on logic, I should probably find something else to do with my free time. Trying to keep track of a game whose mechanics violate logic when there is no compelling need for them to do so is needlessly stressful for me.

No, it isn't! It is doing nothing, until such time as the Cardassians notify us that they intend to fight to protect Celos.

I suppose it would avoid a state of emergency if the Cardassians don't push us... But you are already convinced that the Cardassians have every intention of pushing us. Everything you says indicates that they will push. If you're right, we might as well declare the State of Emergency now, and have done with it. After all, we're under no obligation to attack the Cardassians if they (miraculously) decide not to push.

Me, I take it as a given that the Cardassians will push, but think we can absorb and defeat a small push without needing to resort to a state of emergency... and that we'll know in advance if they're readying a big push. We can therefore declare a state of emergency if they ready a big push, while not declaring one if they ready a small push we can defeat without one.

But you, who expect a big Cardassian push or NO push, should surely favor either immediately declaring a state of emergency (to defend against the big push), or waiting and not drawing a "red line" (in case the big push might not yet arrive).

Instead, you propose to commit us to declaring the state of emergency... but you tie it to a trigger condition the Cardassians can fire or not fire whenever they want! They are free to attack us before they make any guarantees to Celos. If they were planning to attack us preemptively anyway, that is exactly what they'll do, just like the Japanese at Pearl Harbor.

You are not being restrained or logical here. You are simply picking the option intermediate between "hawk" and "dove" and assuming it must be the correct choice.

Either we should start the extra preparations now, or we should wait for more evidence of a big Cardassian offensive before starting the extra preparations. We gain nothing by saying "we promise to start the extra preparations after you write the Celosians a letter that we think constitutes an act of war against us."

If you think the results of an action don't match the text, take it up with Oneiros. Don't fight with the people who are just voting based on what the option says.
 
Wait, why would war with Cardassia mean war with the Romulans? The Klingons and the Romulans are both considering going to war explicitly because they don't think the Federation will intervene one way or the other. Has this changed?
?

Because there is a good chance that it WWIs us into it.

Either we trigger our Khitomer defense clause with the Klingons and bring them in against the Cardassians or nothing happens and the Romulans jump the Klingons while our backs are turned and the Klingons trigger Khitomer or don't.

Either degrade the quality of our peace with the Klingons or we end up in more wars. I really don't want this expanding. And winding up with distrust of the Klingons again is real... sucky
 
So I've been thinking a lot recently.

About the Spoonheads and a book I picked up in Boston once. What if the Cardies need this war?

What if, economically speaking, them going to war with us is more vital then we realize? We all know how Spartan their ships are and such, and they've been steadfastly trying to keep things low intensity, then all of the sudden do this? It makes little sense, especially since we know they've been steadfastly against us for some time.
 
If you think the results of an action don't match the text, take it up with Oneiros. Don't fight with the people who are just voting based on what the option says.
I'm not protesting them personally, I'm protesting the situation. Oneiros is asleep, and I can't do anything about it.

But I'm going to be honest, I think our usual habit of picking 'middle' options so as to avoid being either too hawkish or too dovish is not doing us any favors here. It commits us to an option that says "delay SoE until this thing happens that may not happen until you've already been attacked," instead of saying either "wait on the SOE plain and simple" OR "go for the SoE right now." Either of those two strategies would at least make sense in the context of what we're dealing with. But the 'middle option' does not.

I mean, it doesn't do that? It just says it guarantees war in case of a "guarantee of independence" and "increases chances of peace short of that." On the other hand, not requesting the SoE has the lowest chance of escalation, at the cost of not giving us "the maximum preparation if war still breaks out anyway." I think reading that as giving any bonuses to combat is really really dangerous, and really really questionable too. Asking for the SoE would be more likely to do what you're talking about.

As things stand, the Cardassians aren't committed yet, and are waiting to see what the situation is when their units actually arrive on scene, that means the flashpoint is going to be Celos and not a full scale invasion by the Cardassians right off the bat.

Frankly, the "[ ][SOE] Arrange for an SoE immediately following a Cardassian guarantee for Celos" option does seem to be the worst of both worlds (doesn't give room to negotiate and stall, but also doesn't give any actual benefits from the Emergency powers).
Okay. Have you voted accordingly?
 
Last edited:
My fundamental point here is that the state of emergency is not a diplomatic tool we should be trying to use to manipulate the opinions of foreign governments.
I don't see it as a diplomatic tool, but a logistical one. We don't have to announce that we've declared SoE. Let Linderly classify it to his heart's content.

I almost wish for a write in of [ ][SOE] Maintain High Alert and consider a SOE when Cardassian intentions become clear but do not be beholden to a "Red line"
I'd be happy with this, if we lay all the groundwork for SoE, short of actually declaring it, so that it's as simple as a STOP/GO call. If the write-in gets approved, I'll switch. It has everything I'd want from my current vote.
 
Last edited:
[X][SOE] Do not Request a State of Emergency
[X][SFTF1] Support Operations on Celos
[X][SFTF2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[X][UETF] Support Operations on Freedom
[X][ATF] Escort shipping
[X][CBZ] Focus on defense of Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
[X][SBZ] Focus on defence of Square 0d
[ ][DIPLO] Remain focused on Sydraxians.

I am tired and worn from less than 12 hours of this debate-but I remain adamant that we must pursue Peace with all our efforts, until the fasces are the only thing left to hand. The ancients may have said that 'let him that desire peace prepare for war' but I beg to differ.
 
I actually think that abandoning the diplomatic efforts with the Sydraxians is by far the most hawkish move we can make short of the immediate SOE. Not only does it abandon our best peace process right now, it also signals the Gretarians and the Yrillians that we are unreliable and not committed to our diplomacy. These people are going to bat for us and you're ditching them over what? A 2200s era fleet that we would have available anyway.
 
Because there is a good chance that it WWIs us into it.

Either we trigger our Khitomer defense clause with the Klingons and bring them in against the Cardassians or nothing happens and the Romulans jump the Klingons while our backs are turned and the Klingons trigger Khitomer or don't.

Either degrade the quality of our peace with the Klingons or we end up in more wars. I really don't want this expanding. And winding up with distrust of the Klingons again is real... sucky

Here's how I see that scenario going down.

Federation and Cardassians go to war.

Federation debates calling in Klingons with Khitomer accords, but decides not to because that practically guarantees Romulan intervention and starts a two front war which no one wants.

Klingons and Romulans go to war.

Klingons consider calling in Federation, but I don't think they will. For one, the Klingon-Federation alliance is a lot looser now than it is in TNG era because the events of "Yesterday's Enterprise" haven't happened yet. For another, Klingons have pride and don't want to have to share the spoils of war with us. For a third, the Klingons don't want to fight an enemy a whole quadrant away while there's a fleet on their border.

Federation-Cardassian war and Klingon-Romulan war continue seperately.

The pacts between the Klingons and Federation right now are not as rigid as you seem to think. There is no alliance or entente to drag in. Unless we are monumentally foolish, I don't think we need to be concerned about the Romulans and Klingons other than them using our territory to conduct raids on each othrr.
 
Let's be honest here - we will most likely not avoid war.

It might not erupt over this. It might not erupt tomorrow. But Cardassians want war, and they've staked their entire prestige on opposing us. Frankly, the Federation has displayed outstanding amounts of patience and understanding against a power that has explicitly rejected any appeal to reason and diplomacy and which has been actively undermining our diplomacy with other races.

They have actually displayed willingness to cooperate with people that nuke our capital cities.

Wars were fought - are being fought - over entirely less serious pretenses.

For some of us it is avoiding war until we are better positioned. Our shipyards are producing more than their shipyards so each year gives us an edge. For example 2315 we get 4 Excelsiors coming in to service, that also allows us to concentrate more ships on the border. In addition we are making inroads to getting the Dawiar and Sydraxians to neutral in the case of a war which reduces the number of fronts we have.

Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 1111 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.6

Task: ATF

[32][ATF] Escort shipping
[8][ATF] Hunt and destroy Syndicate space forces
[2][ATF] Conduct blockade at Celos


——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: CBZ

[34][CBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
[6][CBZ] Skirmish with Cardassian ships
[1][CBZ] Focus on defence of Square 0d


——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: DIPLO

[30][DIPLO] Remain focused on Sydraxians
[9][DIPLO] Request the Indorians send their forces to Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
[1][DIPLO] Request the Qloath to try to hunt the Cardassian Frontier Ships


——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: SBZ

[23][SBZ] Focus on defence of Square 0d
[16][SBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 8 at Vega
[1][SBZ] Skirmish aggressively


——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: SFTF1

[30][SFTF1] Support Operations on Celos
[11][SFTF1] Support Operations on Freedom
[1][SFTF1] Picket Federation Border


——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: SFTF2

[31][SFTF2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces.
[9][SFTF2] Conduct blockade at Celos
[2][SFTF2] Picket Federation Border


——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: SOE

[33][SOE] Arrange for an SoE immediately following a Cardassian guarantee for Celos
[7][SOE] Do not request a State of Emergency
[2][SOE] Request a State of Emergency now
[2][SOE] Maintain High Alert and consider a SOE when Cardassian intentions become clear but do not be beholden to a "Red line"


——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: UETF

[30][UETF] Support Operations on Freedom
[10][UETF] Escort shipping
[2][UETF] Conduct blockade at Celos

Total No. of Voters: 44
 
Because there is a good chance that it WWIs us into it.

Either we trigger our Khitomer defense clause with the Klingons and bring them in against the Cardassians or nothing happens and the Romulans jump the Klingons while our backs are turned and the Klingons trigger Khitomer or don't.

Either degrade the quality of our peace with the Klingons or we end up in more wars. I really don't want this expanding. And winding up with distrust of the Klingons again is real... sucky
I went and looked it up since that's not how it was described earlier in the thread, and you're incorrect. The Khitomer Accords only mean that if the Romulans attack the Klingons, we agree not to aid the Romulans. There isn't a WW1-style agreement to help out if they get pulled into a war. Which makes sense, because the Romulans must know about the Accords, and we have been explicitly told that they don't expect us to aid the Klingons in the event of a war.
 
Updating my vote on the SBZ, as before SOE I am split between option 1 and 3

[X][SOE] Do not request a State of Emergency
[X][SFTF1] Support Operations on Celos
[X][STFT2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[X][UETF] Support Operations on Freedom
[X][ATF] Escort shipping
[X][CBZ] Focus on defence of Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
[X][SBZ] Focus on defence of Square 0d
[X][DIPLO] Remain focused on Sydraxians
 
No, it isn't! It is doing nothing, until such time as the Cardassians notify us that they intend to fight to protect Celos.

I suppose it would avoid a state of emergency if the Cardassians don't push us... But you are already convinced that the Cardassians have every intention of pushing us. Everything you says indicates that they will push. If you're right, we might as well declare the State of Emergency now, and have done with it. After all, we're under no obligation to attack the Cardassians if they (miraculously) decide not to push.

Me, I take it as a given that the Cardassians will push, but think we can absorb and defeat a small push without needing to resort to a state of emergency... and that we'll know in advance if they're readying a big push. We can therefore declare a state of emergency if they ready a big push, while not declaring one if they ready a small push we can defeat without one.

But you, who expect a big Cardassian push or NO push, should surely favor either immediately declaring a state of emergency (to defend against the big push), or waiting and not drawing a "red line" (in case the big push might not yet arrive).

Instead, you propose to commit us to declaring the state of emergency... but you tie it to a trigger condition the Cardassians can fire or not fire whenever they want! They are free to attack us before they make any guarantees to Celos. If they were planning to attack us preemptively anyway, that is exactly what they'll do, just like the Japanese at Pearl Harbor.

You are not being restrained or logical here. You are simply picking the option intermediate between "hawk" and "dove" and assuming it must be the correct choice.

Either we should start the extra preparations now, or we should wait for more evidence of a big Cardassian offensive before starting the extra preparations. We gain nothing by saying "we promise to start the extra preparations after you write the Celosians a letter that we think constitutes an act of war against us."

And I'll be blunt, I don't remotely agree with you there.

You kind of ignore the elephant in the room, and think that because I personally believe Cardassians will push, therefore my option is illogical because "well, why wouldn't you prepare for war?"

Because what I think is irrelevant. That I believe Cardassian push is imminent is immaterial and another thing; but you cannot in good faith ignore the fact that Cardassians might not be willing to escalate. The world isn't black-and-white, and frankly your argument falls in between two extremes that from my point of view are highly illogical.

I didn't make my choice because I think it's the best war choice ever, but because I think it allows us the greatest freedom of movement, which I think is the most important thing here. We will not be as well prepared as if we went on war footing immediately, true, but we will not be sitting and doing nothing. It acknowledges the very real threat of war with Cardassia, but it gives us a way to deescalate if Celos crisis is brought under control. Given how volatile the situation is, I believe we need to be able to adapt to the situation quickly - whether it is deescalation or not - lest we be pulled into one we're not really suited to handle.

By contrast,I do not see any logic in your actions. You would either have us sit tight, and optimistically assume "It will be alright, we can beat Cardassia even if we don't do anything" which is grossly naive, or you'd have us go "FULL WAR-FOOTING, PROGRAM PHASER BARRAGES ON CARDASSIAN CITIES" and I mean wut :jackiechan:

Yes, I acknowledge that we might get some hits with the options I'm proposing, but we will be able to immediately go into full readiness and quickly respond to the situation, rather than having meetings ad infinitum while Cardassians are 15 lightyears into our space. There is a fundamental difference in being willing to take a hit but not doing anything, and being willing to take a hit and have a plan to do something about it. You're kind of assuming we'll just declare a SOE and be wondering what to do next, which isn't what I get from the tone and context of the option.

Above all, despite going with pacifist option, you're...entirely ignoring the fact that this option is our best choice of avoiding war if situation does not escalate. I am honestly not sure what you're arguing for anymore - that we should let Cardassians make the first strike so we can massacre them?

If like, you're thinking that this is entirely different from what you're saying than I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing it.
 
I went and looked it up since that's not how it was described earlier in the thread, and you're incorrect. The Khitomer Accords only mean that if the Romulans attack the Klingons, we agree not to aid the Romulans. There isn't a WW1-style agreement to help out if they get pulled into a war. Which makes sense, because the Romulans must know about the Accords, and we have been explicitly told that they don't expect us to aid the Klingons in the event of a war.

Ah, I guess I'm letting my OOC knowledge of the TNG era cloud my judgement.

I still think it's risky as fuck. You can't have two major wars going on simultaneously and not expect them to get tangled up eventually.
 
[X][SOE] Do not Request a State of Emergency
[X][SFTF1] Support Operations on Celos
[X][SFTF2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[X][UETF] Support Operations on Freedom
[X][ATF] Escort shipping
[X][CBZ] Focus on defense of Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
[X][SBZ] Focus on defence of Square 0d
[ ][DIPLO] Remain focused on Sydraxians.

I am tired and worn from less than 12 hours of this debate-but I remain adamant that we must pursue Peace with all our efforts, until the fasces are the only thing left to hand. The ancients may have said that 'let him that desire peace prepare for war' but I beg to differ.

You forgot to put an "X" in that last vote. It won't be counted unless you do.
 
[X][SOE] Do not Request a State of Emergency
[X][SFTF1] Support Operations on Celos
[X][SFTF2] Hunt and Destroy Syndicate Space forces
[X][UETF] Support Operations on Freedom
[X][ATF] Escort shipping
[X][CBZ] Focus on defense of Starbase 9 at Lapycorias
[X][SBZ] Focus on defence of Square 0d
[X][DIPLO] Remain focused on Sydraxians.

The passion of our doves has convinced me, though I will say that Simon_jester's belligerence made it a harder choice than I'd have expected.
 
Ah, I guess I'm letting my OOC knowledge of the TNG era cloud my judgement.

I still think it's risky as fuck. You can't have two major wars going on simultaneously and not expect them to get tangled up eventually.

I think you're almost certainly right. But that's why all the choices are crap. I mainly hope the Aeroknights can take back Celos in a hurry, and that is unfortunately down to the luck of the dice.

Leader of the military, people think you have all the power in the world, and it's mostly likely that it'll all come down to the actions of NPCs we have no control over, with our votes merely being about the best way to mitigate the damage. Wow, this quest really is a pretty good simulation of being a Fleet Admiral!
 
The passion of our doves has convinced me, though I will say that Simon_jester's belligerence made it a harder choice than I'd have expected.
My apologies. I respect your position greatly.

My basic point is that either war is imminent and the Cardassians will hit us without warning, or we can expect warning of the war.

If we can expect warning (and I think we can, if only "us seeing their ships coming"), then we should wait to declare a state of emergency.

If we can expect no warning, BUT IF a state of emergency will not significantly improve the readiness of our most threatened frontier sector (and I think it won't)... then we should wait to declare a state of emergency.

If we can expect no warning, AND IF a state of emergency is likely to mean the difference between victory and defeat in a very threatened frontier sector...

Then either we should wait until the situation clarifies, or we should declare the state of emergency right now, simply to protect ourselves.

In NO case is the optimal course of action to say "we won't declare a state of emergency now, but we'll do so after the Cardassians decide to write us a nasty letter."

Hawk, or dove. One or the other. Not some hybridized "dowk" that combines the disadvantages of both birds.
_________________________

It's not that I want war or that I believe we can avoid war, I honestly don't think avoiding war is possible, even though I consider it undesirable. The point I've been trying to make is that even if you make the relatively belligerent assumptions others are making... either we should declare a state of emergency now, or we should delay. We should not attach the state of emergency to a "red line" condition that ties the start of our preparations to an event the Cardassians control the timing of.

Me, I favor the 'dove' vote if forced to choose, because I think we can switch to 'hawk' when we see fit- the time to do so is not yet, but may occur at any moment.

But if people are afraid of us being caught by surprise under the 'dove' option, then choosing the 'dowk' opttion isn't a better alternative. Because it still leaves the Cardassians just as much control over whether or not to push the button, and whether or not to hit us with a surprise attack the moment they DO push the button.

I don't see it as a diplomatic tool, but a logistical one. We don't have to announce that we've declared SoE. Let Linderly classify it to his heart's content.
Uh... we kind of do have to, because otherwise our own civilians and member world fleets won't know we're doing it. The whole point of the state of emergency is that it lets us issue orders. There is no way to gain significant logistical benefits from orders other people don't know you're giving.

I'd be happy with this, if we lay all the groundwork for SoE, short of actually declaring it, so that it's as simple as a STOP/GO call. If the write-in gets approved, I'll switch. It has everything I'd want from my current vote.
I'm pretty sure that's how the state of emergency actually works- STOP/GO call. I don't remember any indication that there was a lengthy process to go through during the Biophage crisis.

I actually think that abandoning the diplomatic efforts with the Sydraxians is by far the most hawkish move we can make short of the immediate SOE. Not only does it abandon our best peace process right now, it also signals the Gretarians and the Yrillians that we are unreliable and not committed to our diplomacy. These people are going to bat for us and you're ditching them over what? A 2200s era fleet that we would have available anyway.
The flip side of that is that the biggest military disaster we could possibly suffer on the Cardassian front is the Cardassians charging out of Bajor with, oh, 50-60 Combat worth of ships, rolling right over the CBZ fleet, and invading Indorion space with superior numbers and technology. There is literally nothing stopping the Cardassians from doing that, and by your own statements to me earlier, you anticipate that they could easily do it by surprise.

If you believe war is imminent, then it is basic common sense to concentrate our forces in the most threatened sector of space, rather than dispersing them.

Conversely, if you believe war is unlikely enough that keeping diplomats concentrated on a long term project that is likely to take months to bear fruit, rather than on a move that is urgently needed to secure our own forces... Well, that should influence your vote on other issues as well.
 
Last edited:
I think you're almost certainly right. But that's why all the choices are crap. I mainly hope the Aeroknights can take back Celos in a hurry, and that is unfortunately down to the luck of the dice.

Leader of the military, people think you have all the power in the world, and it's mostly likely that it'll all come down to the actions of NPCs we have no control over, with our votes merely being about the best way to mitigate the damage. Wow, this quest really is a pretty good simulation of being a Fleet Admiral!

I'm just writing Omakes right now to massage that feeling.
 
Ah, I guess I'm letting my OOC knowledge of the TNG era cloud my judgement.

I still think it's risky as fuck. You can't have two major wars going on simultaneously and not expect them to get tangled up eventually.
That's fair - they're clearly set up to allow for one of us to aid the other in the event of a war, but we aren't tied into it. I haven't seen the relevant episodes, but presumably they made use of that.
I found the terms here if anyone's interested: Khitomer Accords

I actually think that abandoning the diplomatic efforts with the Sydraxians is by far the most hawkish move we can make short of the immediate SOE. Not only does it abandon our best peace process right now, it also signals the Gretarians and the Yrillians that we are unreliable and not committed to our diplomacy. These people are going to bat for us and you're ditching them over what? A 2200s era fleet that we would have available anyway.
It's only for 2 weeks, during the High Alert - we'll move them back if there's no war, and if there is the point is moot.
 
My apologies. I respect your position greatly.

My basic point is that either war is imminent and the Cardassians will hit us without warning, or we can expect warning of the war.

If we can expect warning (and I think we can, if only "us seeing their ships coming"), then we should wait to declare a state of emergency.

If we can expect no warning, BUT IF a state of emergency will not significantly improve the readiness of our most threatened frontier sector (and I think it won't)... then we should wait to declare a state of emergency.

If we can expect no warning, AND IF a state of emergency is likely to mean the difference between victory and defeat in a very threatened frontier sector...

Then either we should wait until the situation clarifies, or we should declare the state of emergency right now, simply to protect ourselves.

In NO case is the optimal course of action to say "we won't declare a state of emergency now, but we'll do so after the Cardassians decide to write us a nasty letter."

Hawk, or dove. One or the other. Not some hybrid "have" or "dowk" that combines the disadvantages of both birds.

It's not that I want war or that I believe we can avoid war, I honestly don't think avoiding war is possible, even though I consider it undesirable. The point I've been trying to make is that even if you make the relatively belligerent assumptions others are making... either we should declare a state of emergency now, or we should delay. We should not attach the state of emergency to a "red line" condition that ties the start of our preparations to an event the Cardassians control the timing of.

Uh... we kind of do have to, because otherwise our own civilians and member world fleets won't know we're doing it. The whole point of the state of emergency is that it lets us issue orders. There is no way to gain significant logistical benefits from orders other people don't know you're giving.

I'm pretty sure that's how the state of emergency actually works- STOP/GO call. I don't remember any indication that there was a lengthy process to go through during the Biophage crisis.

The flip side of that is that the biggest military disaster we could possibly suffer on the Cardassian front is the Cardassians charging out of Bajor with, oh, 50-60 Combat worth of ships, rolling right over the CBZ fleet, and invading Indorion space with superior numbers and technology. There is literally nothing stopping the Cardassians from doing that, and by your own statements to me earlier, you anticipate that they could easily do it by surprise.

If you believe war is imminent, then it is basic common sense to concentrate our forces in the most threatened sector of space, rather than dispersing them.

Conversely, if you believe war is unlikely enough that keeping diplomats concentrated on a long term project that is likely to take months to bear fruit, rather than on a move that is urgently needed to secure our own forces... Well, that should influence your vote on other issues as well.
I don't agree with your framing, though. It runs contrary to what we've already been told IC. In addition, in the surprise attack scenario, I would rather not lose the Indorian fleet too, which I believe likely.

I'll throw that argument back at you too; you should be voting to declare a SOE if you think war is so unavoidable that you need to call up the Indorian fleet.
 
Back
Top