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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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My money's on an unexpected result from the still-in-beta-testing combat engine that turns out to be the result of a balance issue in the still-in-beta-testing combat engine.

[NOTE: It is totally okay for a still-in-beta-testing engine to have weird balance issues, that is literally what beta testing is for. The catch is that attaching mechanical consequences to the beta test results of a new system can lead to undesired unfairnesses]

Nix said:
@OneirosTheWriter the Constellation(-A) doesn't fit any of the existing roles. Would "a Garrison Cruiser to cheaply anchor home sectors" be something it can fill, and therefore justify continued service? The Oberth class doesn't seem to currently fulfill any role either.
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The Constellation(-A) is basically an (unsatisfactory) garrison cruiser. Alternatively, it actually does a pretty good job of fitting the 'combat escort' role, since Shields 2 is considered the acceptable minimum there.

NullVoid said:
[] A high-presence courier escort

Outside of the Excelsiors, our ships' Presence is crap. We need a cheapish P5 escort for the home sectors, something like a "presence Oberth".
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Rennies have Presence 4 which is not bad for a cruiser. Centaur-As have Presence 3 which is not bad for a cheap escort. Could be better, but it's not bad.

The problem is, does having a dedicated Presence escort make sense if that's all it does? We're never realistically going to be able or willing to build one of those per sector; we've certainly never even come close to building one science vessel per sector. Because either we'd have to give them, like, Combat 0 or 1... or they'd be taking up a significant chunk of our Combat cap on ships we'd get fairly limited mileage out of.

Briefvoice said:
Is there a reason we can't start the research project for the Kepler within the next few years? I thought we already had all the parts we needed to make a great Science ship, and there is no limitation about rsearching two ships at once.

Why not be researching the Ambassador and the Kepler at the same time and building the prototypes at the same time?
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I wouldn't mind doing this, but I refuse to vote for "need a science vessel" if that is in any way prejudicial to getting our 2313 start for the Ambassadors, something that we've been planning and preparing for in-game years and out-of-game months.

Alastor Mobius Toth said:
On subject of ships...despite me liking spess sheeps, I'm not sure what to vote for. While I understand the need to replace useless death traps Oberths, we're also on the dawn of war with Cardassia. I'd honestly want some sort of mid-range cruiser that could be used as ship-of-the-line, and in peace time can moonlight as extended patrol vessel, freeing our heavier ships for more important things
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Yes, we definitely need a ship like that. Consequently, we started work on it several in-game years ago. It's called the Renaissance-class.

[Seriously, those things are hella tanky by cruiser standards, and their peacetime garrison stats aren't bad either. If they were any more impressive they'd be fully competitive with the much more expensive Excelsiors. That sounds like "mid-range cruiser that could be used as ship-of-the-line, and in peacetime can moonlight as extended patrol vessel" to me.]
 
Briefvoice said:
Is there a reason we can't start the research project for the Kepler within the next few years? I thought we already had all the parts we needed to make a great Science ship, and there is no limitation about rsearching two ships at once.

Why not be researching the Ambassador and the Kepler at the same time and building the prototypes at the same time?



I don't know. Science events happen every, but Presence Events are a little rarer and rarely happen in home sectors with no non-Federation borders and no affilaites inside them. (Vulcan and Andor and Tellar basically,)
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Well it would be 2314 at the earliest since 2313 would be requesting the Ambassador project. I think we would need to figure out what we would get by waiting potentially an extra year or two. Once the design bureau designs the Ambassador I would say request some Kepler designs and if they are acceptable start it in 2314 or 15 depending on how are PP needs to be spent.
 
Briefvoice said:
Is there a reason we can't start the research project for the Kepler within the next few years? I thought we already had all the parts we needed to make a great Science ship, and there is no limitation about rsearching two ships at once.

Why not be researching the Ambassador and the Kepler at the same time and building the prototypes at the same time?
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For one we don't have any of the T2 escort subframes researched yet, and that would be quite doable within a few years. By 2320 we could even have the T3 subframes researched (along with improved hull, SIF, sensors, sick bays [important for science], weapons and more). For the Ambassador we do already have the T2 subframes as result of researching the T2 explorer design projects.
 
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OneirosTheWriter said:
Yes - you'd want to be requesting the research project within the next four years, before the following Starfleet Tactical turn.
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Okay, in that case I definitely don't want to commit us to starting the Kepler, since we have people who don't think we'll be ready by then, and since we definitely want to start our next-generation explorer in that timeframe.

[X] Suggest something else- NEW EXPLORER

Justification follows:

"There is a single trend indicated by the very existence of the Renaissance-class, and the proliferation of the Cardassians' Jalduns and Kaldars, and by the likelihood of a still more powerful cruiser design leaving Cardassian yards in the next 5-10 years.

The Excelsior's has enjoyed a thirty-year reign of superiority as the quadrant's preeminent class of starship, in both peacetime and wartime roles. However, this reign is likely to come to an end in the near future.

Starfleet's strategic posture is built around the performance advantage conferred by large, high-capability explorer vessels. To maintain this posture requires a next-generation explorer design, capable of remaining competitive into and through the 2320s and 2330s. This new type of vessel will carry the Starfleet mission forward into the next generation, just as the Excelsior-class itself performed so admirably during the Biophage Crisis and other recent emergencies.

Based on studies of several proposals by the Ship Design Bureau, we have concluded that it is time to begin a project to carry out detail design and prototyping on this new, 24th century explorer vessel. Our office's working title for the class is "Ambassador."
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Sorry, but according to my Romulan QM sense, every time a QM talks about "fun rolls", the appropriate reaction is to wave arms and run around shouting.

Simon_Jester said:
Yes, we definitely need a ship like that. Consequently, we started work on it several in-game years ago. It's called the Renaissance-class.

[Seriously, those things are hella tanky by cruiser standards, and their peacetime garrison stats aren't bad either. If they were any more impressive they'd be fully competitive with the much more expensive Excelsiors. That sounds like "mid-range cruiser that could be used as ship-of-the-line, and in peacetime can moonlight as extended patrol vessel" to me.]
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I honestly keep forgetting what it's for :V

Honest mistake and all.

In that event, I'd propose that instead of changing or requesting new things, we should focus on rolling them out ASAP. If we can't accelerate making the prototype/trials, then setting up a system to have a whole bunch of them produced straight away. Needs of volume etc.

Ideally of course, I'd want an Explorer for every system, followed by a general replacement with Nebula-class as per my Starfleet Command headcanon, but that's still almost a century off.
 
[X] Suggest something else- NEW EXPLORER

Makes sense since we're about to start the Ambassador.
 
[X] Suggest something else- NEW EXPLORER

Since we have to start the ship in the next four years the Ambassador is the only one that is guaranteed to do so.
 
For the Heavy Explorer I really don't like the hard requirement of a large operations subframe. That's an unnecessary constraint on possible designs, particularly given that everything other than medium frames is somewhat inefficient. A suitable science focus could just as well be achieved with a medium subframe and a science module.
 
[X] Suggest something else- Change the Heavy Explorer requirement to Medium OR Large Operations Frame.

The Ambassador is covered by existing design requirements. However, we can't make anything but the super large super stat Ambassador on the existing design requirement. Therefore, I'm asking to modify it. Otherwise the only designs you'll get are monsters we won't really be able to make too many of. This vote doesn't disable them, just lets us consider alternatives.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
They're building a new Explorer design! How exciting. e: in fact, they probably have a good ship design team for either cruisers or explorers, when we do hit full membership
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It's very controversial. Lots of passionate protest plays, Senate shenanigans, and so forth. See, it breaks a long-standing tradition of maintaining as much science capability as combat capability.

Here, have a look at Qloathi ship design!

(This might well be the last time Oneiros asks me to design a power's ships based on the old spreadsheet.)
 
I really hope so damn space fool thing didnt just happen in the space Balkans.... it's about the right year for an anniversary tour of the concept of "The Great War"
 
[X] Suggest something else- NEW EXPLORER

Sorry Kepler, but the science just isn't there yet.
 
[X] Suggest something else- Change the Heavy Explorer requirement to Medium OR Large Operations Frame.
 
[X] Suggest something else- Change the Heavy Explorer requirement to Medium OR Large Operations Frame.​
 
Okay, I like SWB's amendment to what I had in mind, better than what I actually had in mind...

[X] Suggest something else- Change the Heavy Explorer requirement to Medium OR Large Operations Frame.

[We wouldn't need this if it weren't for mechanical issues with the new ship design process, I suspect, but we have to work within the limits of what we've got]

[ @OneirosTheWriter, I'm sorry if it turns out that we're asking for something impossible because literally ONLY ships with the Large Operations Frame can do five year missions... but as of this writing, some of our best ship design people don't know that, you see]

Alastor Mobius Toth said:
I honestly keep forgetting what it's for :V

Honest mistake and all.

In that event, I'd propose that instead of changing or requesting new things, we should focus on rolling them out ASAP. If we can't accelerate making the prototype/trials, then setting up a system to have a whole bunch of them produced straight away. Needs of volume etc.
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Briefvoice is the man with the plan. We're going to be starting like four of them literally the minute it becomes possible to do so. And we could totally start a fifth at Tellar Prime if we had the resources and didn't mind the ships taking a little longer. Because in the four slots Briefvoice has them planned for, it only takes 2.25 years to finish a Rennie, whereas it would take 3 years to finish them somewhere like the one-megaton berth at Tellar Prime.

Either way we start two more the next year after that (2315), representing a healthy majority of all berths available in which to build the ships that wouldn't be better used working on explorers. In theory we could build more Rennies than that, but we might not be able to crew them and we'd have to effectively give up our refit programs (which are very crew-efficient ways to add combat and other capability to our ships).

Basically, we're already planning for maximum-rate Renaissance production in every facility we have that isn't an explorer-sized berth, subject to the limits of our ability to put trained warm bodies aboard the ships.

Alastor Mobius Toth said:
Why not a Nebul-WHAT DO YOU MEAN, IT'S STILL THE TOS ERA!?
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We're sort of... halfway between the TOS and TNG eras. The Renaissance, for example, looks a lot like what you would happen if you tried to build a Constitution-shaped ship out of Galaxy-class parts that had been left out in the rain and shrank.
 
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[X] Suggest something else- Change the Heavy Explorer requirement to Medium OR Large Operations Frame.​
 
anon_user said:
It's very controversial. Lots of passionate protest plays, Senate shenanigans, and so forth. See, it breaks a long-standing tradition of maintaining as much science capability as combat capability.

Here, have a look at Qloathi ship design!

(This might well be the last time Oneiros asks me to design a power's ships based on the old spreadsheet.)
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Those are really nice and practical ships. Designed to appropriate principles too.
 
anon_user said:
It's very controversial. Lots of passionate protest plays, Senate shenanigans, and so forth. See, it breaks a long-standing tradition of maintaining as much science capability as combat capability.

Here, have a look at Qloathi ship design!

(This might well be the last time Oneiros asks me to design a power's ships based on the old spreadsheet.)
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Thanks, I will get those onto the spreadsheet.

[X] Suggest something else- Change the Heavy Explorer requirement to Medium OR Large Operations Frame.

Edit: Added Qloathi stats, they have 37 in combat with another 15! under construction. The 37 matches them up well with all but the Apiata (94), for members Caitan (65) and Amarkia (56) and Rigellians (48) are the only ones with a significant edge. The two escorts finish over the next two years so they should hit 45 combat soon. The explorer doesn't finish until 2318 though. Still combined with the Starbase they are a nice anchor on the southern end and can probably stalemate the Lecarrens.
 
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