To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

[Nervos Belli]

Given the state of Klingon Romulans relations, now may not be the right time for that. We don't want to signal strong Klingon friendship when relationships with the Romulans are thawing.

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Our relations with the Romulans have been trending positive for a while now, and we just got thanked by the Senate a few months ago for helping them. I'm more concerned about the Klingons, since we haven't had any major interaction with them since the Biophage. Plus the Klingons need less provocation to start/join a war against us in my opinion.

Edit: There's also the S'harien, which is named after a pre-schism Vulcan respected by both Vulcans and Romulans.

 

[Night]

Hm. What was the senior-most Romulan military or civilian leader we interacted with positively during the biophage crisis?

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The Praetor, i.e. the Romulan head of state. Camir was his name.

 

[Leila Hann]

I don't know if the Klingons and Romulans would take this well, to be honest. The Klingons probably would, but the Romulans might see it as presumption on our part, or as some kind of tacit mockery.

 

[Simon_Jester]

That just looks like a Galaxy to me.

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Well, it's not our fault that the Rennie looks like a Galaxy. The canon-ish illustrations for it all have the same problem- the thing looks like a not-too-ugly kitbash made from Galaxy model parts.

The only thing that visually distinguishes the 'stock' model from a Galaxy visually is that the nacelles jut out sideways from the engineering hull instead of being on bent right-angle pylons like in the Galaxy. Or we can go with the angled Connie-style nacelle pylons that are different from both the 'stock' design AND the design of the Galaxy-class.

Twiddling the nacelle pylons is about all we've got. Otherwise we're left with designing something completely different from any existing model.

...I actually kind of liked the Rennie having nacelles that went straight horizontal. I thought it was unique and different, and it sort of evokes what later happens with the Intrepids.
Failing that I'd rather it be more Connie-style than wash-shrunk-Ambassador/Galaxy-style.

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I had a half-drafted explanation in my head for how they made it work when it used to be considered physically impossible; the Renaissance design with the straight-across nacelles violates one of Roddenberry's rules for how warp drive ships are allowed to look. And not the stupid rule, either.

Our next ship pair could be the Gorkon and [Romulanname] for maximum confusion.

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Sadly, S'harien probably doesn't count, and its existence would not reassure the Romulans. I could fondly hope it hasn't already unnerved the Klingons too much, and probably be right- Romulans have an 'obsessively analyze everything on the assumption that I'm dealing with crazy passive-aggressive people.' Klingons are just oversensitive, there's a difference.

The Praetor, i.e. the Romulan head of state. Camir was his name.

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Naming a ship after a Romulan head of state who for all we know may still be politically active is not the same as naming a ship after a recent Klingon chancellor who is safely dead.

That said, I honestly don't think this is a good idea all around. It's the kind of gesture that has very little potential to make a good kind of difference, and lots of potential to blow up in our faces.

I really hope we're still on reasonably good terms with the Klingons, but that's the Diplomatic Service's job, not ours.

 

[Ato]

I think Gorkon works well as an excelsior name and we should definately do that. Though I think the next one should be a Caitian named one.

I think we would need a khitomer conference level event for our rapproachment with the Romulans before we name a ship for them. The biophage crisis was a very positive step, but we still have a way to go.
Maybe if a Romulans leader takes a very proactive role in stopping or preventing the coming war.
Or takes the lead in setting up the great Congress of Caldonia that ensures peace and co-operation between the great powers. (By great powers we of course mean cool kids only, no Cardassians allowed)

 

[KnightDisciple]

Well, it's not our fault that the Rennie looks like a Galaxy. The canon-ish illustrations for it all have the same problem- the thing looks like a not-too-ugly kitbash made from Galaxy model parts.

The only thing that visually distinguishes the 'stock' model from a Galaxy visually is that the nacelles jut out sideways from the engineering hull instead of being on bent right-angle pylons like in the Galaxy. Or we can go with the angled Connie-style nacelle pylons that are different from both the 'stock' design AND the design of the Galaxy-class.

Twiddling the nacelle pylons is about all we've got. Otherwise we're left with designing something completely different from any existing model.

I had a half-drafted explanation in my head for how they made it work when it used to be considered physically impossible; the Renaissance design with the straight-across nacelles violates one of Roddenberry's rules for how warp drive ships are allowed to look. And not the stupid rule, either.

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Yeah, but the Phoenix (Cochrane's experimental ship) used horizontal nacelle pylons. It was a matter of necessity as much as anything, but still. And there are a few post-First Contact designs that do the same.
Shoot, the Defiant's nacelles aren't even on pylons!

 

[Leila Hann]

It may well be that the Klingons already have a ship named Gorkon.

 

[Nervos Belli]

It may well be that the Klingons already have a ship named Gorkon.

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The Klingons almost certainly have a ship named Courageous or the Klingon equivalent as well. Ships with the same name in different navies isn't a big deal. Pretty sure one of the Rigellian Mega-Tortoises was named Endurance, but we still named our Excelsior Endurance.

 

[pbluekan]

Okay, here's the deal on the promised post with the war-game exercises.

They basically are there to serve as a way to give you transcripts of the new combat engine, and progress for your doctrine research. However while the core engine is done, I'm still yet to finish the UI for it. So as a result, I'm temporarily delaying that part. Hopefully this weekend I'll have a chance to finish it off.

In the interim, I'll continue along with the normal posting order.

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Seriously, the effort you put into this quest is absolutely astronomical (don't mind the pun) and I and I'm sure everyone around here appreciates it.

Damn fine job.

 

[Briefvoice]

Well, it's not our fault that the Rennie looks like a Galaxy. The canon-ish illustrations for it all have the same problem- the thing looks like a not-too-ugly kitbash made from Galaxy model parts.

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I LOLed at the description in your link:

Design History

The Renaissance class is a compact multi-purpose ship developed to replace the Constitution class. A milestone in starship design, the prototype USS Renaissance incorporated only few components and design features of previous ship classes. The ship was commissioned in 2305. Several batches of Renaissance -class ships were produced until 2337. The last ship, the USS Hokkaido, was the only one delivered with ASRVs (autonomous survival and recovery vehicles), however, several ships of the newer batches were refitted in the 2360's, and ASRVs were added along with Type 8 phaser strips.

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We are literally building Constitutions until we can build Renaissances, at which point we will stop and begin building Renaissances. So yes, definitely to replace the Constitution class.

 

[Gravitas Hunt]

I had a half-drafted explanation in my head for how they made it work when it used to be considered physically impossible; the Renaissance design with the straight-across nacelles violates one of Roddenberry's rules for how warp drive ships are allowed to look. And not the stupid rule, either.

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I was thinking this when I first started modelling it. I think Roddenberry's rules stated that at least half the nacelles needed to have line-of-sight to their opposite and the Renaissance might just squeak by, as most of the lower half is unobstructed. Can't imagine it would do much for efficiency!
Though perhaps they're more like design guidelines in-universe too! Or maybe the effect is less pronounced on smaller vessels like the Phoenix and Defiant.

Edit re Phoenix: it could also be that Cochrane wasn't aware of the necessity...

 

[KnightDisciple]

I was thinking this when I first started modelling it. I think Roddenberry's rules stated that at least half the nacelles needed to have line-of-sight to their opposite and the Renaissance might just squeak by, as most of the lower half is unobstructed. Can't imagine it would do much for efficiency!
Though perhaps they're more like design guidelines in-universe too! Or maybe the effect is less pronounced on smaller vessels like the Phoenix and Defiant.

Edit re Phoenix: it could also be that Cochrane wasn't aware of the necessity...

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*Scratches chin*

What if the pylons were horizontal, but angled back? That might provide a bit more of the line-of-sight effect, while still giving them a more unique profile.

Another idea: have them angled up like Connies, but reduce the neck between the saucer and engineering even more. This might evoke a Sovereign a bit, but that's okay in my book; someone had to start that design ball rolling!

 

[Leila Hann]

I'm tempted to try drawing a totally novel "Renaissance" design. A bigger divergence from the usual Starfleet frame, along the lines of the constie or oberth.

 

[Iron Wolf]

Rennies technically have line of sight, as pointed out. It's not full line of sight, but other vessels break this rule... just not many of them.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I think Gorkon works well as an excelsior name and we should definately do that. Though I think the next one should be a Caitian named one.

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For Klingon names? Not yet it is too soon. Especially not when we're talking about both sides worrying that we're taking sides in a war they're about to start.

Yeah, but the Phoenix (Cochrane's experimental ship) used horizontal nacelle pylons. It was a matter of necessity as much as anything, but still. And there are a few post-First Contact designs that do the same.

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Maybe there was a good reason the Phoenix couldn't exceed Warp One or so.

Shoot, the Defiant's nacelles aren't even on pylons!

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Yeah. I'm aware of all this, but honestly, Trek ships are so weirdly designed there HAS to be a reason. If the nacelles didn't normally need a clear line of sight to each other, and to 'ahead,' there'd be no reason for the Connies to even have the shape they do, for instance- you'd put the engineering hull, the saucer, and the nacelles all in the same plane to simplify the structure and make it stronger.

Now, after Roddenberry was out of the picture, the designers started ignoring his rules- but they didn't replace them with anything, so that a lot of the most iconic Star Trek ship designs (particularly the Connie and the Galaxy-class) just don't make sense anymore.

 

[Gravitas Hunt]

My thoughts were: keep the horizontal nacelles for hospital ships, as it makes them pretty instantly distinguishable from all our other vessels.
I've added a 'Connie-style' nacelle arrangement to my Sketchfab page (see signature). Here are a few images: (Images removed, sorry! See later in thread for more recent designs)
I kept the flat shuttlebay to give it a bit of a distinction from the Constitution, and perhaps to foreshadow designs of the future – basically everything after the Ambassador uses it!
@KnightDisciple, I'd rather not shorten the neck, as I'm not sure it would work too well with the circular saucer. The Intrepid and Sovereign both have it significantly elongated.

 

[KnightDisciple]

For Klingon names? Not yet it is too soon. Especially not when we're talking about both sides worrying that we're taking sides in a war they're about to start.

Maybe there was a good reason the Phoenix couldn't exceed Warp One or so.

Yeah. I'm aware of all this, but honestly, Trek ships are so weirdly designed there HAS to be a reason. If the nacelles didn't normally need a clear line of sight to each other, and to 'ahead,' there'd be no reason for the Connies to even have the shape they do, for instance- you'd put the engineering hull, the saucer, and the nacelles all in the same plane to simplify the structure and make it stronger.

Now, after Roddenberry was out of the picture, the designers started ignoring his rules- but they didn't replace them with anything, so that a lot of the most iconic Star Trek ship designs (particularly the Connie and the Galaxy-class) just don't make sense anymore.

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Well, I can see reasoning for things like "separate nacelles" and even "keep line of sight"; it's all about power efficiency, warp fields, etc.

I think most of the less-traditional designs from the Federation still have 50% or more of their nacelles having unbroken line-of-sigh? Even the Steamrunner; in its case, it's just the middle 50% (with the front and backs being in either the primary hull or the back rollbar/pod).

The Defiant was explicitly an overpowered prototype that practically shook itself apart at first (and even its nacelles have some LOS on each other, on the underside of the hull). Maybe Defiant-class ships have more carefully-balanced warp dynamics?

Now that I think about it, the Intrepids have to raise their nacelles to hit warp, and once they're raised I think they have LOS.

Hrm.

I'd say a neo-Connie design with sprinkles of later Sovereign design (very little neck, nacelles up and angled back) would be cool.

EDIT: @Gravitas Hunt , I like it!

 

[Simon_Jester]

I, too, like the new album from Gravitas.

 

[Iron Wolf]

Doing a little more review of ship designs -- I think it's shuttles that mostly break or stretch the line of sight rules. Two of the more iconic shuttle designs - the Type 6 and the Runabout - have LOS of maybe 50%? This leads me to wonder if the Defiant's design process in-universe matches the production process: started out as a beefed up runabout, complete with nacelle configuration, and ended up as as a ~120m long escort.

In any case shuttles aren't known for their warp performance so maybe that says something, but there is precedent for having only partial LOS.

Also notable is that another iconic shuttle, the TOS Galileo-type, does appear to have have full line-of-sight. Maybe as knowledge of warp dynamics developed from TOS to TNG and beyond they found they could have the nacelles more and more obscured from each other. Horizontal Rennie would fit into this general progression.

 

[Gear]

Found something interesting on google:


As for the Ambassador Era designs, I've been going through some Enterprise concept art, trying to find something good, but mostly it's just variants and ugly drawings. I say go with the original concept art of the Ambassador. While it still looks like a small Galaxy with some Excelsior bits glued on it, it at least has some style of it's own and looks less like a kind of ugly cheap one-off model intended for a single episode like what we got in canon.

 

[Gravitas Hunt]

As for the Ambassador Era designs, I've been going through some Enterprise concept art, trying to find something good, but mostly it's just variants and ugly drawings. I say go with the original concept art of the Ambassador. While it still looks like a small Galaxy with some Excelsior bits glued on it, it at least has some style of it's own and looks less like a kind of ugly cheap one-off model intended for a single episode like what we got in canon.

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I was about to go searching for that! I really like Tobias Richter's Trek stuff*.
I'm a hint iffy on the shape of the upper secondary hull, though. It seems to narrow rather oddly for those phaser strips that seem to be mostly occluded by the pylons and nacelles. I hope you're not expecting that kind of quality from me!

Something that occurred to me while looking at that though: we never seem to see rooms with only skylights, but the shape of the saucers in general (excepting Voyager) would suggest they'd be far and away the most common.

* Yes, I know it's originally Andrew Probert's design.

 

[KnightDisciple]

I was about to go searching for that! I really like Tobias Richter's Trek stuff*.
I'm a hint iffy on the shape of the upper secondary hull, though. It seems to narrow rather oddly for those phaser strips that seem to be mostly occluded by the pylons and nacelles. I hope you're not expecting that kind of quality from me!

Something that occurred to me while looking at that though: we never seem to see rooms with only skylights, but the shape of the saucers in general (excepting Voyager) would suggest they'd be far and away the most common.

* Yes, I know it's originally Andrew Probert's design.

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I chalk stuff like that up to set design limits.

 

[Gravitas Hunt]

I chalk stuff like that up to set design limits.

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Makes sense, but I was hoping someone might have a Watsonian explanation. It doesn't irritate me or anything, it was just an idle note. Perhaps there's some gravitational trickery involved...
Edit: I do recall that the officer quarters on Galaxy-class ships had very slanted windows, so I'm sure it was taken into consideration.

 

[KnightDisciple]

Makes sense, but I was hoping someone might have a Watsonian explanation. It doesn't irritate me or anything, it was just an idle note.

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Well, most of the cabins we see in TNG are the Main Characters, Flag Officers, or VIPs, right? The non-skylight rooms are probably the "prime" real estate, and thus where those folks would go.

 

[Iron Wolf]

Makes sense, but I was hoping someone might have a Watsonian explanation. It doesn't irritate me or anything, it was just an idle note. Perhaps there's some gravitational trickery involved...
Edit: I do recall that the officer quarters on Galaxy-class ships had very slanted windows, so I'm sure it was taken into consideration.

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Finding views of the top of the saucer is surprisingly difficult (at least on Memory Alpha), but looking at these pictures...

Spoiler

... it appears the area with the shallowest angle and thus best for skylights has fewer windows, perhaps indicating those are more 'industrial' areas of the ship [which makes sense as they're more deeply buried, kind of], and most of the crew quarters are on the outer edge.