Theunderbolt
"Prepare for trouble..."
- Location
- USoA
Nash ka'Sharren cheesecake is the #1 search result coming from Cardassia on Space Google.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
-
- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
Nash ka'Sharren cheesecake is the #1 search result coming from Cardassia on Space Google.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
War is undesirable no matter who it's between (leaving aside for a moment the possibility of a Dominion/Borg war, since we've met neither of those). A war between the Klingons and Romulans means a lot of dead Klingons and Romulans, and if their differences can be resolved peacefully instead everyone is better off.
I agree from a ideological standpoint it is just that with the conflict/war with Cardassia binding our forces this seems like the ideal (and possibly only time, considering our growth rate) time for those two groups to attack us. And since nether of the two groups has a partially good reason to like us I would feel a lot more comfortable if they were busy with each other and not able to drag us into a nearly impossible two front war.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Firstly, since both sides have cloaking devices and decades of experience using them, it is entirely possible that the war will end with a massive first strike and one side sort of swallowing up the other's industrial resources. I strongly suspect the main reason the war hasn't already started is that both sides are trying to figure out a way to do that to the other.
Secondly, a long Romulan-Klingon War will create a generation of commanders and soldiers on both sides with extensive experience in ferocious, scorched-earths combat between two ruthless and deadly adversaries. Commanders and soldiers who we will be dealing with from now up into and through the TNG era, because Romulans and Klingons live a pretty darn long time.
Thirdly, both sides of the war will be tempted to try and sneak through our territory to outflank their enemy. If that happens, we're responsible, and we may see pitched battles fought between Klingons and Romulans in or uncomfortably near to Federation space. And did I mention the part where they both have cloaking devices?
Fourthly, both sides of the war will be tempted to try and bring the Federation into the war, on their side. Their efforts to persuade us to fight alongside them will be bad enough, but they may also try to trick their enemy into attacking us directly... Or trick us into thinking they have done so. Oh, and did I mention the part where they both operate large numbers of identical warships? It would not take much work for the Klingons to fake up a squadron of 'Romulan' D7 battlecruisers, or vice versa.
So no, this war is not going to be fun times for us.
It's easy. Just look for the one the Cardassian government is trying to jam, and the one it isn't trying to jam.
Alternatively, hand copies over to your nearest Obsidian Order office, and see whether you get arrested or not.
Although sadly, I suspect that the Cardassians are over the worst of the "DAMMIT STOP THINKING ABOUT NASH" meme where their own efforts to stop their own people from being seduced by foul xenos are causing the very problem they're afraid of (e.g. Mila Lang's trial). They've had about five years to get it mostly out of their systems, during which we largely kept Nash away from their space.
Until now.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
Unstable outcomes are bad outcomes. The massive unpredictability of an actual war is in no way preferable to peace. We want the Klingons and Romulans to continue to be dogs that are not barking, that we do not have to pay attention to, so that we can focus on other issues. Any other issues. Even if we didn't have Cardassian and Syndraxi issues, anything we spend keeping a lid on the war isn't being used on development or expansion projects.
- Location
- USA
Or having the Dalai Lama talk with the Pope, people with a sense of spirituality can act as a point of understanding even if they have different viewpoints on how that spirituality manifests.
Could I get the stats and numbers for the Seyek to add to the spreadsheet and for the Qloath and Honiani once they are setup?
- Location
- Central Standard Time
?
Was disappointed to see that this wasn't threadmarked.
We need a list of all of Oneiross funposts.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I would presume a reference to Homeworld: Cataclysm, which gave Oneiros the inspiration for the Biophage.
- Location
- Location: Location!
You don't really need the Dalai Lama to speak with the Pope for you, do you? He's a nice guy, he'll receive and take seriously even the words of an atheist.
Radical Muslims, not so much.
In the end, do you expect the Bajoran leadership to be progressive and accepting of other peoples' customs and way of life, or will they denounce us all as heretics that will burn in the fires-equivalent of Hell-equivalent? I don't think that the Honiani's belief in higher forms of life will make them any better in their eyes, and if the Honani end up offended by Bajoran dogmas we'll end up with two problems instead of one.
Mind you, I'm still hoping that Sisko ends up the Emissary of the Prophets again (he's my favorite canon captain). That much moral authority makes the Bajoran leadership much easier to handle.
- Location
- USA
So I am working on a tracking sheet for Neutral races along with Great Powers and those in there sphere. To Boldly Go Neutral and Great Power, this one will not be as accurate, which is why I introduced a min and max since we often have a range on opponets ships and a min and max combat, the other stats is the average of the min and max. Still under construction.
Things I am looking for:
Number of romulan ships by class
Stats for Klingon Advanced Bird of Prey
Stats for Sydraxian ships
Numbers and Stats for Cardassian aligned ships (besides the Cardassians and Sydraxians)
Numbers and Stats for the Neutral Races
Things I am looking for:
Number of romulan ships by class
Stats for Klingon Advanced Bird of Prey
Stats for Sydraxian ships
Numbers and Stats for Cardassian aligned ships (besides the Cardassians and Sydraxians)
Numbers and Stats for the Neutral Races
One thing I thought might be worth bringing up: do we know veterancy levels for any Klingon ships? It's not unreasonable they might have more Blooded or higher ships than us due to being on more of a war footing or due to intensive combat training. That might skew their aggregate skill pools higher.
Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
To counter those claims, Able Archer nearly caused WW3, and that was prefixing a lot of messages with "This is totally a exercise, just in case any dastardly Soviets are eavesdropping. Hint hint."
Look alikes? Knowing Kirk, he either had one kid who went in, or some of those are legit Kirk.
Those bastards! They don't need to steal wifi!
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
Steven got it. The Naar Directive was the name of Kiith Somtaw's standard order for what to do when hit by an Infection Beam: vent drive plasma from your fusion torch into the affected compartments. It was actually developed in mid-battle according to Cataclysm lore, named after the Destroyer Naar
The problems about war are little to do with military strength.
The economies of all the powers nearby were not quite at maximum. The first Cardassian shipbuilding report we got noted they had some slack, for example. That slack has since been used as they build to match a peer power, likely at the expense of civilian economy.
A long, grindy and inconclusive war will wear down military strength. A war where there is a decisive victor, even a long one, will result in war economies producing massive quantities of military equipment and personnel. Look at what happened with Allied equipment after World War 2 - American and Russian surplus ended up everywhere, and their militaries remain huge even today.
Not to mention all the battle hardened, experienced, trained personnel who are used to having enemies.
The idea of a short victorious war likely infects Klingon and Romulan strategic thinking. Cloaks and the realities of space combat make this likely. Yet the fact is that even one successful first strike would not win the war, just like a Cardassian Pearl Harbor against us could not win the war. I've even seen this short victorious war thinking make it into this thread, and every time I see "why don't we park a fleet on their homeworld" / "phasers over Cardassia Prime", and I just shake my head.
War is long, it makes civilians suffer, it prolongs suffering well after it ends, it boosts the military economy, and it produces people in the military who want more war.
The economies of all the powers nearby were not quite at maximum. The first Cardassian shipbuilding report we got noted they had some slack, for example. That slack has since been used as they build to match a peer power, likely at the expense of civilian economy.
A long, grindy and inconclusive war will wear down military strength. A war where there is a decisive victor, even a long one, will result in war economies producing massive quantities of military equipment and personnel. Look at what happened with Allied equipment after World War 2 - American and Russian surplus ended up everywhere, and their militaries remain huge even today.
Not to mention all the battle hardened, experienced, trained personnel who are used to having enemies.
The idea of a short victorious war likely infects Klingon and Romulan strategic thinking. Cloaks and the realities of space combat make this likely. Yet the fact is that even one successful first strike would not win the war, just like a Cardassian Pearl Harbor against us could not win the war. I've even seen this short victorious war thinking make it into this thread, and every time I see "why don't we park a fleet on their homeworld" / "phasers over Cardassia Prime", and I just shake my head.
War is long, it makes civilians suffer, it prolongs suffering well after it ends, it boosts the military economy, and it produces people in the military who want more war.
The only way we are having a 'short victorious war' with Cardassia is if both sides park 90% of their fleets next to each other and after the warp cores finish exploding, we still over half our fleet.
And that assumes that we are not doing any ground campaigns and the Cardie leadership rolls over and admits we control the orbitals.
And that assumes that we are not doing any ground campaigns and the Cardie leadership rolls over and admits we control the orbitals.
- Location
- USA
Only short and victorious wars I can see is doing something like tangle with the Sydraxians, since they had at max 14 ships in the intel report two years ago and I think the Apiata bagged two since then. Assuming 3 more ships finished ( 2 escort , 1 cruiser) and 4C for escort and 5C for cruiser (highest values we have seen for those classes) they would have 65 combat, less than half of Starfleet. Dropping the explorer corp, plus SBZ and some more spare ships would finish them off, more so if we brought the Amarkia along to play.
But that has the advantage of fighting a group that is only spread out over a square or two on the map. Cardassians would be a lot of probing actions, border skirmishes, feints and withdrawls with each side trying to whittle down the fleet of the other.
This is the exact kind of thinking I'm talking about.
Even if you can win the war, can you win the peace?
Or do you think that Cardassia left Bajor because they weren't sure if the stove was left on and they wanted to go back home and check?
Federation citizens will take a heck of a pounding over their ideals, but taking another race's options away is not one of them.
- Location
- USA
For the Federation our win condition in a war is generally bringing them to the table to talk with us, so against the Sydraxian or other races with a small fleet if we get into a shooting war then knocking down a good part of there fleet should get them to agree to talk at least which is what we want. It would be short due to the lack of strategic depth. Now this only applies if we can deal with them without anyone intervening on their side and also as we are unlikely to land ground forces to contest planets.
Against the Cardassians who have staregic depth and a stronger fleet, it would be a long war, with initially trying to skirmish for local advantages and whittling down the ships they can use on offensive action before pinning fleets and hitting them, hopefully only needing to do so once before they will talk.
While avoiding the idea of a short, victorious war is a good idea, bending over backwards to do so is not. The main threat posed by the Sydraxians is them work in concert with the Cardassians. Either way though, gathering a fleet big enough to knock out their fleet is the best option, just that if it is the Sydraxians only then that would likely end the war or at least move it to a cease fire state.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Some of those are pieces of information everyone is looking for- we do not have clear information on the fleets of the Dawiar, the Lecarre, or the Yrillians. The latter has a fleet so fragmented we may not be able to get a good count even in theory; it's not a question of how many ships they have, but of how many sailors' soviets decide to vote to align with Cardassia.
We don't have exact information on the Sydraxian ships or the Klingons' new Bird-of-Prey ourselves, either. We can make educated guesses but we can't be certain.
It's possible, but the flip side is that their crews tend to be a bit short on discipline and technical skills. It's possible that they're benefiting from veterancy on their ships in considerable numbers, but not very likely.
The only way to really learn about this would be to get observers aboard Klingon ships. Which is totally a thing that was happening in the TNG era in canon. Riker participated in an officer exchange program, for instance, and has the honor of being one of only two Klingon captains ever to secure the surrender of the USS Enterprise.
What it comes down to is that it's at least believable that either the Romulan or the Klingon empires could succeed in 'hamstringing' the other if they pulled off an extremely successful first strike. They might not actually win the war, but they might very well do enough damage in the opening few hours of the war to turn it into a long, brutal grind of destroying an enemy, as opposed to merely struggling against one.
The reason Pearl Harbor wasn't decisive is that the US had such a large margin of superiority over Japan in terms of fleet size and economic power that it could eat the loss of several battleships and just keep going. Against a more powerful opponent who had the ability to absorb similar losses of their own, and a productive economy of comparable size, that wouldn't be so easy. Furthermore, cloaked ships can at least hypothetically penetrate far enough into enemy space to hit industrial infrastructure targets (as we saw during the Kadak-Tor incident). They don't just Pearl Harbor your existing fleet, they can hit the shipyards too- and perhaps more to the point, the fuel refineries.
The main reason the Cardassians can't do this to us is because they don't have enough stealth capability and we have something like 2-3 times as many ships as they do (counting member worlds), spread out across a vast area of space it takes months to cross. The Klingons and Romulans both have more stealth. Their territories appear to be at least somewhat more compact. And it seems likely that neither has a major advantage of numbers over the other. If they did, the stronger party would already have attacked the weaker.
Arguably, the single biggest factor deterring the two empires from war is just how much of their respective fleets Empire A needs covering critical infrastructure and watching the border to make sure Empire B isn't going to launch their disastrous sneak attack literally next week, before Empire A could get its own notional sneak attack in motion.
All painfully true and I agree with you.
The catch is that IF either side of this war pulls off a big enough sneak attack, and that cannot be ruled out... it's going to be long because of grinding military occupation, not because of a major ongoing naval war with an uncertain outcome. Neither Klingons nor Romulans are going to surrender easily, even in the face of threatened orbital bombardment, so ground conflict on occupied planets could get... protracted. Also, cloaked ships offer many opportunities to wage a guerilla war against a superior enemy fleet, so long as some outposts and bases remain hidden from the enemy. The Romulans assuredly have secret bases known to no one outside their empire and not many within it; I wouldn't be surprised if the Klingons do too.
2312.Q3.M2 - Commander Selection
- Location
- Australia
From: Rear Admiral Seruk, Starfleet Personnel Command
To: Admiral Valentina Sousa, Commander, Starfleet; Vice Admiral Heidi Eriksson, Starfleet Operations Command
Subject: Sector Command Billets
Greetings Admiral, Vice Admiral,
Due to an untimely sabbatical, and the requirement to appoint a Starbase commander, two Sectors require assignment. In accordance with standing regulations, I am forwarding to you a short list of candidates.
[ ][FERASA] Please pick a Candidate to command Ferasa Sector
[ ][SBZ] Please pick a Candidate to command the Sydraxian Border Zone
Captain Langa Mbeki
Current Posting: Unassigned Pending Inquiry Result (expected next month)
Rule-Abiding: Medium
Aggression: Medium
Nerve: High
Diplomacy: Medium
Politics: Low
Although the inquiry into the loss of the USS Miracht has not yet published their findings, based on my analysis of evidence presented, the inquiry is almost certain to clear Captain Mbeki, thus I have included him in this list. With stints commanding the USS Challorn, the USS Miracht, and time in a shore billet as Assistant Deputy Chief of Staff to Starfleet Tactical Command, I believe he has the necessary experience to progress further in his career.
Captain Tomas Meyer
Current Posting: Director of Personnel, Starfleet Explorer Corps
Rule-Abiding: High
Aggression: Low
Nerve: Medium
Diplomacy: Medium
Politics: High
A talented bureaucrat and political operator, I feel that Captain Meyer requires more space side command and would rather see him promoted to a home sector command than further desk assignments.
Commodore Thraan th'Marlaas
Current Posting: Chief of Staff, Starfleet Shipyard Operations
Rule-Abiding: Low
Aggression: High
Nerve: Medium
Diplomacy: Medium
Politics: Medium
A long serving officer in Shipyard Operations, I believe he is chafing with a long series of planetside assignments, and would like to see his talents verified through a different command before pushing him towards a Shipyard Command.
Commodore Michel Thuir
Current Posting: Operations Officer, Starfleet Tactical Field Command
Rule-Abiding: Medium
Aggression: High
Nerve: Medium
Diplomacy: Medium
Politics: High
An officer who has been proven in dangerous situations, with experience in command during the Biophage, and who has completed a Five Year Mission.
Commodore Gorac Crogan
Current Posting: Assistant Deputy Chief of Staff (Operations), Starfleet Command
Rule-Abiding: Medium
Aggression: Medium
Nerve: Medium
Diplomacy: High
Politics: High
A long-serving Tellarite officer with significant experience already acquired in planet-side billets. In order to be satisfied that they are ready for a Rear Admiral billet, however, it would be best to see them take to space once more.
Captain Vol Chad
Current Posting: Commanding, USS Sappho
Rule-Abiding: Low
Aggression: Medium
Nerve: Medium
Diplomacy: High
Politics: Low
A promising officer, currently on the Explorer Corps Panel. While they acquire an appointment with either the Odyssey or S'harien in 2313, I believe they do have sufficient qualifications currently.
Sincerely,
Rear Admiral Seruk
QM/N:
I really do need to push along more junior officers into Captaincy and Commodore-ship, it's getting thin on the ground at the top with so many Sectors to command!
To: Admiral Valentina Sousa, Commander, Starfleet; Vice Admiral Heidi Eriksson, Starfleet Operations Command
Subject: Sector Command Billets
Greetings Admiral, Vice Admiral,
Due to an untimely sabbatical, and the requirement to appoint a Starbase commander, two Sectors require assignment. In accordance with standing regulations, I am forwarding to you a short list of candidates.
[ ][FERASA] Please pick a Candidate to command Ferasa Sector
[ ][SBZ] Please pick a Candidate to command the Sydraxian Border Zone
Captain Langa Mbeki
Current Posting: Unassigned Pending Inquiry Result (expected next month)
Rule-Abiding: Medium
Aggression: Medium
Nerve: High
Diplomacy: Medium
Politics: Low
Although the inquiry into the loss of the USS Miracht has not yet published their findings, based on my analysis of evidence presented, the inquiry is almost certain to clear Captain Mbeki, thus I have included him in this list. With stints commanding the USS Challorn, the USS Miracht, and time in a shore billet as Assistant Deputy Chief of Staff to Starfleet Tactical Command, I believe he has the necessary experience to progress further in his career.
Captain Tomas Meyer
Current Posting: Director of Personnel, Starfleet Explorer Corps
Rule-Abiding: High
Aggression: Low
Nerve: Medium
Diplomacy: Medium
Politics: High
A talented bureaucrat and political operator, I feel that Captain Meyer requires more space side command and would rather see him promoted to a home sector command than further desk assignments.
Commodore Thraan th'Marlaas
Current Posting: Chief of Staff, Starfleet Shipyard Operations
Rule-Abiding: Low
Aggression: High
Nerve: Medium
Diplomacy: Medium
Politics: Medium
A long serving officer in Shipyard Operations, I believe he is chafing with a long series of planetside assignments, and would like to see his talents verified through a different command before pushing him towards a Shipyard Command.
Commodore Michel Thuir
Current Posting: Operations Officer, Starfleet Tactical Field Command
Rule-Abiding: Medium
Aggression: High
Nerve: Medium
Diplomacy: Medium
Politics: High
An officer who has been proven in dangerous situations, with experience in command during the Biophage, and who has completed a Five Year Mission.
Commodore Gorac Crogan
Current Posting: Assistant Deputy Chief of Staff (Operations), Starfleet Command
Rule-Abiding: Medium
Aggression: Medium
Nerve: Medium
Diplomacy: High
Politics: High
A long-serving Tellarite officer with significant experience already acquired in planet-side billets. In order to be satisfied that they are ready for a Rear Admiral billet, however, it would be best to see them take to space once more.
Captain Vol Chad
Current Posting: Commanding, USS Sappho
Rule-Abiding: Low
Aggression: Medium
Nerve: Medium
Diplomacy: High
Politics: Low
A promising officer, currently on the Explorer Corps Panel. While they acquire an appointment with either the Odyssey or S'harien in 2313, I believe they do have sufficient qualifications currently.
Sincerely,
Rear Admiral Seruk
QM/N:
I really do need to push along more junior officers into Captaincy and Commodore-ship, it's getting thin on the ground at the top with so many Sectors to command!
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