Starfleet Design Bureau

Also, on the subject of size and technical impossibility.

I would like to remind everyone of what Suliban vessels were capable of in ENT. Literal shuttle sized metal orbs with no obvious warp drive able to independently match pace with and outgun a vessel multiple time their size.
 
Also, on the subject of size and technical impossibility.

I would like to remind everyone of what Suliban vessels were capable of in ENT. Literal shuttle sized metal orbs with no obvious warp drive able to independently match pace with and outgun a vessel multiple time their size.
They were also literally future tech.
They were more advanced TNG runabouts in a smaller package.
 
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Also, on the subject of size and technical impossibility.

I would like to remind everyone of what Suliban vessels were capable of in ENT. Literal shuttle sized metal orbs with no obvious warp drive able to independently match pace with and outgun a vessel multiple time their size.
Haven't seen it, but that suggests a tech advantage so many generations ahead it's indistinguishable from magic fairy dust.
 
The QM is already resizing nacelles to fit aesthetically with whatever ship is being designed. Personally I like the idea of variety in ship sizes. I really do think there should be a semi-smooth curve of ships starting at shuttlecraft and ending at dreadnaughts.

Sure, maybe there are some design standards that differ between various sizes, but more options and flavor seems ultimately better for the creative design space than limiting things to 130-200k ton primary hulls and a spattering of secondary hulls.

(Though I do think there should be something like 3 general ship "sizes" based on the size of the antimatter core. Small ships should be able to support A phasor firing at once. Regular ships should be able to support 2 phasors firing at once and photon torpedoes. Dreadnaughts should be able to support 4 phasors firing at once and photon torpedoes.)
 
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Our engines/nacelles keeping similar sizing between generations or platforms could make sense based on design targets, gradual improvements in theory and components, and small industrial base perspectives. There's probably another handful of ways to hand wave that as well where we chose our limited sizing options.

As soon as we start dealing with a bunch of different tech bases and alien theory it opens the door for weird stuff. Who knows what limits or odd tech cul-de-sacs they've found which give access to trade-offs we don't have. Maybe they've got different levels of responsiveness, size or power restrictions (or sweet spots), etc so their sizing could be different.
 
As soon as we start dealing with a bunch of different tech bases and alien theory it opens the door for weird stuff.

While that's true, star trek ships seem to look a certain way, so there probably is some stuff applicable to every ship regardless of origins.

The Sheliak were so cool, even though we only saw them once. : r/startrek
This is a Sheliak Cooperate ship (who are one of the few alien-esque aliens in star trek, as in they aren't trying to be a space elf). It still looks very much like a star trek ship, rounded and two catamaran looking things that are very likely nacelles.
 
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The problem is that This should be physically impossible given that Warp Nacelles are actually mandatory if you want to actually get someplace anytime soon, and that alone is going to eat 15-20 kilotons.

A tiny 30K BoP is a commerce raider, which requires a certain degree of endurance, but with only 15-10 kilotons of mass left that has to go into everything else, this should be impossible. The alternative is that their Warp Nacelles operate several generations behind everyone else's, but in exchange are highly miniaturized. I can buy that.

But that means you need to load supplies, because you can't just Commerce Raid your way across empty space until you find a target. It means you need sensors to detect one, or an insanely sophisticated "Just in Time" logistics setup that can ensure your cloaked commerce raiders don't need to carry more than maybe a week's supplies with them and never miss their delivery. You need fuel, you need...

Look, there's just so many things that you can't handwave off that costs Mass. Having all of this and the armaments to do more than tickle a dedicated-for-purpose starship strains plausibility to the breaking point and beyond.

It's much more reasonable to just go "It's 30 kilotons of mass... After you ignore the Necessary Components that are physically required to even come to the table."

I don't care if canon says otherwise. Because if that were true, it would mean the Klingon Empire have mastered miniaturization of technology that the Borg could only dream of, hundreds of years before they were first discovered. Something has to give.

Either Birds of Prey are functionally parasite craft that go out in short-range wolfpacks attached to an invisible tender ship that can make sure they're always supplied at all times and have never been detected or discovered across all of history, and are only capable of winning fights against light shipping when operating en-masse and with the cloak advantage and explode if something so much as looks at them with a hostile intent--or they actually have a more reasonable mass than thirty fucking kilotons
I don't know. Maybe miniaturization shouldn't be discarded out of hand.

Consider the fact that Runabouts in DS9 were not only warp-capable, they carried energy weapons able to meaningfully damage proper warships (not by much, but by a significant degree). And Runabouts were not small warships, they were more like oversized shuttlecraft.

In IRL terms, consider how fighter planes got progressively larger and heavier (but much more powerful and capable)--but as we can see with modern drones, unmanned aircraft, and light scout aircraft (like small helicopters), you can still scale things down a lot and give them meaningful capabilities (yes, even offensive capabilities) if you accept major sacrifices in other areas.

So I could easily see a rather tiny 30,000 ton Klingon scout cruiser that has very little durability and very limited firepower but still has the speed, range, and utility to be a meaningfully useful military scout ship that isn't just a parasite craft or short-range in-system patrol ship.

Consider how modern destroyers IRL are ridiculously armed, bristling with massive sensor suites, EWAR systems, comms systems, and air defense systems, all while still having a capable gun turret AND a helicopter landing pad+facilities, all at much less than 30,000 tons. The trade-off is that they have no armor beyond stuff like splinter and moderate fragmentation protection. This is considered an acceptable tradeoff because it is very well equipped to avoid getting hit in the first place, and the capabilities you gain in exchange for no armor is very worth it.

That Klingon scout cruiser probably wouldn't be able to withstand a single phaser hit from the Enterprise of its era; it definitely wouldn't withstand two. And its armament is probably accordingly meager. But it's still got the speed, range, and utility to be useful. So it probably has no armor, weak shields, sensors that are at best adequate, and weapons that are only a threat if you just stand there and let them shoot you.

The more high-end capabilities you add onto something, the more expensive and difficult it becomes to make in a non-linear fashion. But the inverse of that relationship is that you can get a lot done with surprisingly little if you're willing to make major sacrifices in the end-product. I imagine that Star Trek is the same way. Didn't Star Trek Voyager have a modified shuttlecraft (or something along those lines) reach Warp 9.9 or something? Clearly, the reason why Starfleet's "peacetime-wartime multirole everything" ships are almost universally large tonnage giants is because they are trying to achieve at least a moderate capability in every catagory for every ship design.
 
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I don't know. Maybe miniaturization shouldn't be discarded out of hand.

Consider the fact that Runabouts in DS9 were not only warp-capable, they carried energy weapons able to meaningfully damage proper warships (not by much, but by a significant degree). And Runabouts were not small warships, they were more like oversized shuttlecraft.

In IRL terms, consider how fighter planes got progressively larger and heavier (but much more powerful and capable)--but as we can see with modern drones, unmanned aircraft, and light scout aircraft (like small helicopters), you can still scale things down a lot and give them meaningful capabilities (yes, even offensive capabilities) if you accept major sacrifices in other areas.

So I could easily see a rather tiny 30,000 ton Klingon scout cruiser that has very little durability and very limited firepower but still has the speed, range, and utility to be a meaningfully useful military scout ship that isn't just a parasite craft or short-range in-system patrol ship.

Consider how modern destroyers IRL are ridiculously armed, bristling with massive sensor suits, EWAR systems, comms systems, and air defense systems, all while still having a capable gun turret AND a helicopter landing pad+facilities, all at much less than 30,000 tons. The trade-off is that they have no armor beyond stuff like splinter and moderate fragmentation protection. This is considered an acceptable tradeoff because it is very well equipped to avoid getting hit in the first place, and the capabilities you gain in exchange for no armor is very worth it.

That Klingon scout cruiser probably wouldn't be able to withstand a single phaser hit from the Enterprise of its era; it definitely wouldn't withstand two. And its armament is probably accordingly meager. But it's still got the speed, range, and utility to be useful. So it probably has no armor, weak shields, sensors that are at best adequate, and weapons that are only a threat if you just stand there and let them shoot you.

The more high-end capabilities you add onto something, the more expensive and difficult it becomes to make in a non-linear fashion. But the inverse of that relationship is that you can get a lot done with surprisingly little if you're willing to make major sacrifices in the end-product. I imagine that Star Trek is the same way. Didn't Star Trek Voyager have a modified shuttlecraft (or something along those lines) reach Warp 9.9 or something? Clearly, the reason why Starfleet's "peacetime-wartime multirole everything" ships are almost universally large tonnage giants is because they are trying to achieve at least a moderate capability in every catagory for every ship design.
The delta flyer

But really it was simply a bigger more capable shuttlecraft that included a bunch of borg tech to make it considerably more capable than a traditional shuttlecraft. I am pretty sure it only got to 9.9 due to the plot device of the week. They stuck a borg transwarp coil in it.

Still, it was a capable craft despite being a shuttlecraft.
 
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So I could easily see a rather tiny 30,000 ton Klingon scout cruiser that has very little durability and very limited firepower but still has the speed, range, and utility to be a meaningfully useful military scout ship that isn't just a parasite craft or short-range in-system patrol ship.
So this is SUPER not canon, but in the new Stellaris clone Star Trek Infinite, both the Federation and the Klingons are playable. The Federation starts with Mirandas, while the Klingons start with Birds of Prey.

The Miranda is a nice, well-rounded ship. She's decently tough, and she carries an okay weapons load.

The Bird of Prey is a violent little can of whoopass that carries a weapons loadout on par with the Federation Excelsior class, two sizes up from the Miranda. How? The thing has no defenses, that's how. No slots for shields or armor. None. It's a bundle of violence wrapped in an eggshell. A hit that would just drop a Miranda's shields will turn the Bird of Prey into a fireball.
 
For the record, this is what we learned about the "new" BoP that we are trying to match.

Before making your decision, you of course investigate the nuances of each request. What catches your attention in regards to the requested cruiser at least is the sensor readings of the new Klingon Bird-of-Prey. There isn't in-depth tactical data, but just captured sensor readings regarding it's accelerations and silhouette tell you a great deal. You're looking at a forward torpedo launcher in the nose and at least one heavy disruptor cannon at the tip of each wing. Maybe two medium cannons slaved together - it's hard to tell. The heavy single engine at the aft is probably a full fifth of the mass, although it seems tuned for sheer acceleration rather than maneuverability. With the impulse power it puts out you think the distinction is rather moot. If the ship's captain wants to slow down and turn on a dime, it can.

The main downside is the sheer fragility of the spaceframe. Any major hit past the shields will almost certainly destroy it, which goes some way towards explaining how the Klingons can milk that kind of performance out of 150 kilotons of starship

150 kt, one torpedo launcher, disruptors at each wingtip (so probably a wide coverage over focus). Anything that takes down the shields will destroy it. It accelerates fast but has to slow down to turn.

The Soyuz is actually not that much larger in terms of mass. 160kt versus 150kt.... not a big difference!
 
For the record, this is what we learned about the "new" BoP that we are trying to match.



150 kt, one torpedo launcher, disruptors at each wingtip (so probably a wide coverage over focus). Anything that takes down the shields will destroy it. It accelerates fast but has to slow down to turn.

The Soyuz is actually not that much larger in terms of mass. 160kt versus 150kt.... not a big difference!
Nah, likely two disruptors pointing straight forward.
 
While that's true, star trek ships seem to look a certain way, so there probably is some stuff applicable to every ship regardless of origins.

The Sheliak were so cool, even though we only saw them once. : r/startrek
This is a Sheliak Cooperate ship (who are one of the few alien-esque aliens in star trek, as in they aren't trying to be a space elf). It still looks very much like a star trek ship, rounded and two catamaran looking things that are very likely nacelles.

You say that's a Sheliak ship, I say that's just a Merchantman from STIII with a pair of U-boats stuck on the bottom.
 
For the record, this is what we learned about the "new" BoP that we are trying to match.

150 kt, one torpedo launcher, disruptors at each wingtip (so probably a wide coverage over focus). Anything that takes down the shields will destroy it. It accelerates fast but has to slow down to turn.

The Soyuz is actually not that much larger in terms of mass. 160kt versus 150kt.... not a big difference!
So basically, the Soyuz is a Federation Bird of Prey. It just has 2 torpedo launchers instead of 1 torpedo and a cloak, and has phasers instead of disruptors.
 
2189: Project Soyuz (Auxiliary Systems)
[X] 0: Four High-Focus Phaser Placements (+25% Coverage, +3 Average Damage)
[X] 1: No Aft Phasers

While the aft phasers may have provided a sense of security to the crew, you ultimately conclude that their primary use would have been a second phaser strike when passing a target. Given the Soyuz is a highly-maneuverable spaceframe with heavy forward weapons, the chances of a comparative tickle by the aft phasers being what sees their target off to the Great Beyond seem limited at best. No, the resources are better used elsewhere, and as a pleasant bonus allow you to finalise the inclusion of a crew cantine and rest area where the dorsal phaser emplacement would have gone.

As for the forward weapons, you elect to install the bow phasers in a tight, synchronised emission bank. While it renders the port and starboard quarters vulnerable to attack runs without resistance, it does mean that anything within a very substantial firing arc in front of the Soyuz will be subject to the full capability of its particle beams. This is further reinforced by a pair of lateral torpedo launchers, giving the ship a powerful opening punch to an engagement. This has resulted in some cramping internally, but not so much that there is no space for auxiliary systems.

Admittedly a very small space, thanks to the recessed deflector, but that is the price you pay for a lower-mass package capable of this kind of agility. You have space to install one supplemental system with a small footprint, and there are several choices to choose from. The first is a tractor beam, which would allow the Soyuz to assist in salvage and rescue efforts after combat and in general. The second is a cargo bay to assist in longer-term deployments and intra-Federation deliveries of high need and low mass. The third is a small sensor suite, which while thoroughly useless militarily would allow use of the Soyuz as a basic catalogue and survey ship in the vicinity of its duty posting.

[ ] Tractor Beam (+1 Engineering)
[ ] Cargo Bay (+1 Cargo)
[ ] Sensor Suite (+1 Science, Capability: Survey)



Two Hour Moratorium, Please
 
Sensors are a no brainer here. It's going up against cloakers, it needs advanced sensors.

Edit: Wait, it says it's militarily useless. Okay, not quite the no brainer I thought. Maybe the tractor beam instead? Could go either way for me. No cargo bay though.
 
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The Soyuz REALLY looks like the Federations's version of a Romulan Bird of Prey. Just needed longer pylons.

Still, a very good design
 
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