Starfleet Design Bureau

Guys, guys! The successor to the Stingray class should obviously be the Torpedo Ray-class.

As for hummingbirds, just a reminder that the blood soaked war god of the sun and the Mexicah people is Huitzlopochtli, which can be translated as The Hummingbird of the South. So for a ship made for the pure purpose of war and to harass the shit out of warbirds, its also not a bad name.
 
:wot?:

I'm not sure that's accurate. Someone says raptor and I think Perigrine Falcon, and the Raptor show/exhibit at the zoo. Jurassic Park and ARK are distant third or fourth and in a Star Trek context I'm far more likely to think of the Romulans than Chris Pratt.
I was thinking more from the point of view of "random member of the public who's never had any particular reason to put much effort into knowing about either subject beyond random encounters in various media", admittedly.
 
If we're going for relatively cheap and nasty and available in bulk name wise destroyers are probably the way to go. Not to mention there's a lot of history in a lot of DD names from basically every major navy in IRL. Save maybe the Germans since they basically did numbers for names and the ones that didn't faired poorly historically speaking.
 
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:wot?:

I'm not sure that's accurate. Someone says raptor and I think Perigrine Falcon, and the Raptor show/exhibit at the zoo. Jurassic Park and ARK are distant third or fourth and in a Star Trek context I'm far more likely to think of the Romulans than Chris Pratt.

And yet when I hear Raptor, I think of Sam Niell, Jeff Goldblum, and dinosaurs. That said, I was seven when Jurassic Park came out, so I remember it quite fondly.
 
Well, in terms of cost-effectiveness, it certainly makes sense (OOC-wise) that bigger ships are more combat-effective per unit investment, as otherwise there's no point in going bigger instead of making more ships. Does make the decision to go for a Dreadnaught to be an even better one in hindsight, though.
 
Well, in terms of cost-effectiveness, it certainly makes sense (OOC-wise) that bigger ships are more combat-effective per unit investment, as otherwise there's no point in going bigger instead of making more ships. Does make the decision to go for a Dreadnaught to be an even better one in hindsight, though.

That fits Star Trek pretty well also. Big ships go pew pew. Big station goes pew pew.
 
That fits Star Trek pretty well also. Big ships go pew pew. Big station goes pew pew.

Well, it fits the federation navy at least. Other polities seem to do fine with smaller ships. There might be something in our tech base favouring large ships.

Worth keeping in mind that we are going for all the smallest options here and it's still a light cruiser. This is just how we build our ships.
 
It was explicitly mentioned that United Earth united nature allows it to build bigger ships than other polities with similar or superior Techlevel
 
Well, it fits the federation navy at least. Other polities seem to do fine with smaller ships. There might be something in our tech base favouring large ships.

Worth keeping in mind that we are going for all the smallest options here and it's still a light cruiser. This is just how we build our ships.
Reactor size and with the T9 phasers in say 150 to 200 years strip size pays off like mad.
 
Wait

Guys

If we build this is an all-forward attacker, we should name it after the Australian Magpie. It literally does nothing but attack people and annoy them. I don't live in Australia and I hear the complaints about them.
 
Well, in terms of cost-effectiveness, it certainly makes sense (OOC-wise) that bigger ships are more combat-effective per unit investment, as otherwise there's no point in going bigger instead of making more ships. Does make the decision to go for a Dreadnaught to be an even better one in hindsight, though.

I want to explicitly state here that I am not trying to start an argument about the the wisdom of going for a dreadnought as the decision is made, the ship performed well, and I'm happy with it. If anyone tries to restart that argument or replies to this post as if I am simply having a go at the Thunderchild rather than making a detailed and extensively evidenced comparison, I will be a bit annoyed. But just as a general point, this isn't exactly the case. Or rather, bigger ships are more combat-effective in some ways, and less in others.

Going with the frontal deflector layout and two of the optional extra cannons, the Selachii class will have an Average Damage of 4.375, Max Sustained Damage of 12.5, and Alpha Strike of 22.5, and costs 28 Industry. By comparison the Thunderchild class has an Average Damage of 14.2, Max Sustained Damage of 25, and Alpha Strike of 42*, a Defence Rating of 42, and costs 86 Industry. So one Thunderchild (86 Industry) costs roughly the same as three Selachii class ships (84 Industry) making a comparison easy with nice round numbers.

In terms of offence, if we take a squadron of three Selachii class, then we get an Average Damage of 13.125, Max Sustained Damage of 37.5, and an Alpha Strike of 67.5. This means that the average firepower is slightly lower, but the maximum and burst output are fifty percent greater! Notably, these values do not necessarily imply greater overall firepower for the three Selachii - they have the same number of torpedo tubes, but roughly half the phase cannons of a single Thunderchild. However, the Selachii are able to achieve significantly greater concentrated firepower on a single target than a Thunderchild. This is why @Sayle mentioned he wanted to introduce "Single Target Damage Rating" and "Multi-Target Damage Rating" as separate stats.

In terms of protection, it's harder to do a straight comparison of Defence Rating as we don't have a value for the Selachii. But if we use the Stingray Refit (which is a less modern light cruiser) it has a Defence Rating of 12. Taking this as a baseline, we'd have 36 compared to 42, meaning three Selachii in aggregate are roughly six sevenths the toughness of a Thunderchild. Although it's worth pointing out that a Thunderchild can take two thirds damage and still remain repairable, if disabled, where two out of a squadron of three Selachii might get destroyed. However this does not take into account manoeuvrability, which may add survivability to the Selachii as it can dodge.

So if I were to sum it up, I would say that the Selachii class is designed to concentrate a massive amount of firepower onto a single target in and quickly overwhelm it, whilst being incredibly agile so it can avoid fire and keep its guns on target. (This is very useful when dealing with Romulan shields, and many of our kills have been the result of burst damage). The Thunderchild is dangerous in all firing arcs, and can engage more targets simultaneously with enough firepower to really threaten them, whilst having greater staying power, but less mobility. It's sort of as you'd expect for a squadron of escorts whose guns are all focused forward, versus a big powerful capital ship with weapons in all arcs.

In summary, I'd say that a squadron of Selachii class light cruisers is like a wolf pack, whilst the Thunderchild is more like a bison or auroch. One uses teamwork and a ferocious bite to bring down its quarry, whilst the other is immensely powerful and tough, capable of holding off multiple aggressors, presenting a formidable danger from essentially any direction.



*(The formula @Sayle is using actually outputted Alpha Strike of 45 for the Thunderchild whilst the other values were basically the same, it's worth pointing out. So if we're using the same calculation method, then the difference between it and the Selachii is not quite as big as it appears.)
 
[X] Forward Deflector (Industry 2 -> 24) [2 Torpedo Tubes] [1 Cannon + 3 Optional]

Im mostly for team shark, but the name list for arrows is also pretty good.
 
We all need to stop comparing ships to eachother as if they are competitors, and instead visualize the amounts of pain they can deliver to the enemies of peace and cooperation when working in tandem.

Thunderchild: Say hello to my little friends.
 
I want to explicitly state here that I am not trying to start an argument about the the wisdom of going for a dreadnought as the decision is made, the ship performed well, and I'm happy with it. If anyone tries to restart that argument or replies to this post as if I am simply having a go at the Thunderchild rather than making a detailed and extensively evidenced comparison, I will be a bit annoyed. But just as a general point, this isn't exactly the case. Or rather, bigger ships are more combat-effective in some ways, and less in others.

Going with the frontal deflector layout and two of the optional extra cannons, the Selachii class will have an Average Damage of 4.375, Max Sustained Damage of 12.5, and Alpha Strike of 22.5, and costs 28 Industry. By comparison the Thunderchild class has an Average Damage of 14.2, Max Sustained Damage of 25, and Alpha Strike of 42*, a Defence Rating of 42, and costs 86 Industry. So one Thunderchild (86 Industry) costs roughly the same as three Selachii class ships (84 Industry) making a comparison easy with nice round numbers.

In terms of offence, if we take a squadron of three Selachii class, then we get an Average Damage of 13.125, Max Sustained Damage of 37.5, and an Alpha Strike of 67.5. This means that the average firepower is slightly lower, but the maximum and burst output are fifty percent greater! Notably, these values do not necessarily imply greater overall firepower for the three Selachii - they have the same number of torpedo tubes, but roughly half the phase cannons of a single Thunderchild. However, the Selachii are able to achieve significantly greater concentrated firepower on a single target than a Thunderchild. This is why @Sayle mentioned he wanted to introduce "Single Target Damage Rating" and "Multi-Target Damage Rating" as separate stats.

In terms of protection, it's harder to do a straight comparison of Defence Rating as we don't have a value for the Selachii. But if we use the Stingray Refit (which is a less modern light cruiser) it has a Defence Rating of 12. Taking this as a baseline, we'd have 36 compared to 42, meaning three Selachii in aggregate are roughly six sevenths the toughness of a Thunderchild. Although it's worth pointing out that a Thunderchild can take two thirds damage and still remain repairable, if disabled, where two out of a squadron of three Selachii might get destroyed. However this does not take into account manoeuvrability, which may add survivability to the Selachii as it can dodge.

So if I were to sum it up, I would say that the Selachii class is designed to concentrate a massive amount of firepower onto a single target in and quickly overwhelm it, whilst being incredibly agile so it can avoid fire and keep its guns on target. (This is very useful when dealing with Romulan shields, and many of our kills have been the result of burst damage). The Thunderchild is dangerous in all firing arcs, and can engage more targets simultaneously with enough firepower to really threaten them, whilst having greater staying power, but less mobility. It's sort of as you'd expect for a squadron of escorts whose guns are all focused forward, versus a big powerful capital ship with weapons in all arcs.

In summary, I'd say that a squadron of Selachii class light cruisers is like a wolf pack, whilst the Thunderchild is more like a bison or auroch. One uses teamwork and a ferocious bite to bring down its quarry, whilst the other is immensely powerful and tough, capable of holding off multiple aggressors, presenting a formidable danger from essentially any direction.



*(The formula @Sayle is using actually outputted Alpha Strike of 45 for the Thunderchild whilst the other values were basically the same, it's worth pointing out. So if we're using the same calculation method, then the difference between it and the Selachii is not quite as big as it appears.)

I think one thing to factor in is that a squadron will be able to hit enemies in the rear a lot more often than a single big ship. On the other hand a big ship can take a lot of punishment without any irreparable losses so it's great for breaking up an enemy formation. The combination of the two is greater than the sum of its parts.

Unlike video game navies, building a real life navy isn't an exercise in finding the greatest hull and weapon combo then spamming that, it's a set of synergistic pieces that work together. And that's not easy to evaluate with numbers.
 
I think one thing to factor in is that a squadron will be able to hit enemies in the rear a lot more often than a single big ship. On the other hand a big ship can take a lot of punishment without any irreparable losses so it's great for breaking up an enemy formation. The combination of the two is greater than the sum of its parts.

Unlike video game navies, building a real life navy isn't an exercise in finding the greatest hull and weapon combo then spamming that, it's a set of synergistic pieces that work together. And that's not easy to evaluate with numbers.
Thing there is, in theory, there are in fact optimal designs in real life. But unlike a video game, we have limited time and resources in which to test every strategy under the sun.

A single warship takes months to build, and when it enters combat it will only have so many engagements to evaluate strengths and weaknesses before the war ends. And once the war ends, there is no do overs, no playing the same battle hundreds of times with slightly different strategies.

Getting the optimum build in real life is like trying to completely master a video game on your very first campaign.
 
Thing there is, in theory, there are in fact optimal designs in real life. But unlike a video game, we have limited time and resources in which to test every strategy under the sun.

A single warship takes months to build, and when it enters combat it will only have so many engagements to evaluate strengths and weaknesses before the war ends. And once the war ends, there is no do overs, no playing the same battle hundreds of times with slightly different strategies.

Getting the optimum build in real life is like trying to completely master a video game on your very first campaign.

No. There are optimal designs in each ship class but even if you find those you still want a mix of those to benefit from their optimally chosen synergies. And yes maybe you'll prune some ship classes out of your fleet composition but you'll never be down to one choice because there's enough different roles to fill and synergies between different hulls to benefit from a broader set of ships.
 
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