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NHO
Dumb is a state of existence
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- ᓚᘏᗢ
I suspect NX workshops were instrumental in the repairs.
The Thunderchild definitely performed about as well as could be asked from it, but was let down a bit by essentially every Romulan warbird opening fire on it from the outset and meaning it could not risk using its forward torpedoes without risking further catastrophic damage. It's an illustration of what tends to happen to superweapons in actual practice - they get a lot of attention from enemy forces. This isn't really news.
A modernised medium or light cruiser design means we could have turned up with six modernised light cruisers or two to three modern cruisers to that battle, rather than one dreadnought. This would undoubtedly have served us better I think, as the Romulans would not have been able to focus fire nearly so effectively, but it was still a victory, and the crew performed heroically, so we should be thankful for that.
A modernised medium or light cruiser design means we could have turned up with six modernised light cruisers or two to three modern cruisers to that battle, rather than one dreadnought. This would undoubtedly have served us better I think, as the Romulans would not have been able to focus fire nearly so effectively, but it was still a victory, and the crew performed heroically, so we should be thankful for that.
- Location
- his hidden lair
Even then that's *still* to the Thunderchild's credit. A damaged and battered Dreadnought can evidently be brought back to combat status in the field. A hulked light cruiser or one that has had it's AM containment breach obviously cannot.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
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I'd say the biggest limitation for the class is the lack of shielding technology--but considering that technological inferiority, the Thunderchild performed extremely well. Facing such an onslaught focused on her, managing to punch back quite well, blow up one of the three space stations the Romulans needed to protect (and thus were of strategic importance) before re-entering the fight, and ultimately surviving...
And we were right to not waste resources on Warp speed or extreme maneuverability; it was resilience, firepower, and sufficient maneuverability that won the day here.
One ship all by itself forced the Romulans to shape their battleplans around it, and that ship not only destroyed the strategic target they were defending, it also survived while mauling them in return.
And we were right to not waste resources on Warp speed or extreme maneuverability; it was resilience, firepower, and sufficient maneuverability that won the day here.
One ship all by itself forced the Romulans to shape their battleplans around it, and that ship not only destroyed the strategic target they were defending, it also survived while mauling them in return.
What's done is done. Can we stop this I told you so arugment bullshit?
This depends a great deal on the comparative skill and coordination of both sets of forces. Focused fire can very much be done on small targets, and to catastrophic effect compared to a dreadnaught. A squadron of smaller ships can potentially dance around and limit exposure to any one ship, but it's a high-stakes game.
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chaotic-logic
possible impossibility
- Location
- unknown
next design should be an mordern CL
If Sheild were a thing I'd agree. However, looking at the Stingray, even if we upgunned and armored it to the nines it'd have far far far less endurance than the Thunderchild for the cost. Keep in mind that the Thunderchild took three times what was enough to totally cripple a NX as an opening salvo and shrugged it off with aplomb. Sometimes being bigger means, you can afford to take more hits and deal them back. The fact the Romulans had to work to kill the Thunderchild and failed where they've rarely had to struggle to kill a Stingray or NX is telling.
On the other hand if those ships hadn't focused their fire on the biggest and most heavily armoured ship in the fleet from the beginning we would likely have lost several of the smaller ships even earlier on. Their survival meant they could still contribute to the fight for longer and so made the fleet more powerful
- Location
- his hidden lair
This is objectively false and self serving Skippy. 86 Industry. Remember the number because I am baffled by what world we can suddenly get 6 ships more expensive than the Stingray out of 86. Please, show me the design plans for a 14 industry ship that can outfight a Warbird. I'd vote for it.
I'm seeing a few of the diehard cruiser gang mope about a damaged DN while ignoring we were massively outgunned in this fight and we would have been outgunned and outmassed regardless even if we had brought 3 CLs instead or 2 CAs. This fantasy is always going to look more attractive than the actuality because you can't put it to any meaningful test.
At an objective minimum, reducing everything to numbers- the Thunderchild took out 3 Warbirds and the outpost. Ignoring its assists, and assuming the Warbirds are somehow as cheap as a Stingray despite more expensive tech and massing more, and assuming the outpost was worth a measly 10 industry- it destroyed tonnage worth 85 industry of a technologically superior foe. We're the underdogs, victory was always going to be bloody.
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- Location
- west
I see no point in replacing the stingray until we get shields.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
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The main issue here was the lack of shields, and that our energy weapons were also inferior. This meant that the enemy was going to be harder to kill and hitting harder than us, proportionately. Even so, it got the job done when the job was a tall order, and it survived the ordeal on top of that.
I don't know if it will be possible to retrofit shields onto the Thunderchild, but even if not, it's still a very useful asset. Even against the Romulans, it can tank a lot of firepower while still being in the fight, and if you ignore it, it will dish out a world of hurt. And it has the speed and maneuverability to punish you if you don't focus on it.
Capital ships are generally worth making when they either have a capability that smaller ships cannot provide or benefit from a positive economy of scale in terms of size.
IRL, carriers are like this (a US supercarrier is much more than twice as capable as two carriers half its tonnage/size), and battleships were also like this (you could not put such large, powerful, long-range guns on smaller ships, because they would not bear the weight or the recoil of the guns).
- Location
- in between
KlavoHunter
THOU SHALT WORSHIP NO GODS ABOVE ENTERPRISE!
If the Romulan Praetor is panicking, then it strikes me that doing XXXTREME war crimes to bloody his entire Star Empire's hands is a way for the Praetor to unify Romulans under their rule, instead of allowing an opening for a rival to perhaps dethrone them and sue for peace.
We don't negotiate with terrorists.
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- in between
Rule 4: Don’t Be Disruptive - If you believe a post is rule-breaking just report it.
NO. We are not going there over a quest. Delete that right the hell now.
- Location
- Earth
I agree with this. I think either UE should switch Stingray production over to NXs or start a new light cruiser build. Keep in mind Stringrays were originally built for anti pirate work and we cheaped out on the construction and the refit.
KlavoHunter
THOU SHALT WORSHIP NO GODS ABOVE ENTERPRISE!
Rule 3: Be Civil - This is not an acceptable way to express your disagreement.
You cannot throw a tantrum and beg and plead to force people to not make a certain decision in a quest. Get over yourself, NOW.
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- in between
Buddy, I was 50% of the problem last time we had this argument, and I'm not sure in hindsight how we didn't get the thread locked. Stop. Now.
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- USA
If Thunderchild had any kind of shields here instead of plating, I feel confident saying her flotilla would have come out of that with half or less the losses. Big ship did good work. Fucked up a baby Starbase By Herself. Makes her valuable as a siege platform alone, without talking about what she does in a fleet.
Now, the Stingrays need either a replacement or another refit to give them the new cannons and photons. They just cannot keep up against Romulan warlords, and are the oldest ships in the battleline.
At the same time though, the front line just got thrown all the way back to the canon Neutral Zone, so it may be that by the time we finish designing another warship, the war is over. And the Stingrays can probably keep up their role as light patrol for a few years yet if we start pairing them up.
mmm, dunno what's next. But Thunderchild wont need a replacement for a good while methinks.
Now, the Stingrays need either a replacement or another refit to give them the new cannons and photons. They just cannot keep up against Romulan warlords, and are the oldest ships in the battleline.
At the same time though, the front line just got thrown all the way back to the canon Neutral Zone, so it may be that by the time we finish designing another warship, the war is over. And the Stingrays can probably keep up their role as light patrol for a few years yet if we start pairing them up.
mmm, dunno what's next. But Thunderchild wont need a replacement for a good while methinks.
If we had gone with a equivalent weight of modernized light cruisers then focused fire by the Romulans could very well have knocked out at least 2 or 3 of them in the opening volley alone given that it just took the alpha strike of 4 to mission kill a NX class.
There was 12 Warbirds. That's two to three ship's worth of firepower eliminated in the opening volley alone.
I honestly don't know where this 'we would have been better off with cruisers' is coming from.
If we had light cruisers instead of the Thunderchild that station would have been alive since our ships would have been too busy dying to the Warbirds to commit to a thunder run to destroy it.
There was 12 Warbirds. That's two to three ship's worth of firepower eliminated in the opening volley alone.
I honestly don't know where this 'we would have been better off with cruisers' is coming from.
If we had light cruisers instead of the Thunderchild that station would have been alive since our ships would have been too busy dying to the Warbirds to commit to a thunder run to destroy it.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
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Pretty sure after what the Romulan Star Empire has done, it will not end with an armistice and a DMZ. The Romulans are known for cloaked ships, unprovoked genocide, and ruthless subversion of other polities for further their own ambitions.
The Coalition of Planets literally cannot afford to let the RSE continue as it is. They'd risk the RSE developing better cloaking technology and one day launching a more successful alpha strike against the core worlds of the various races.
This will have to end like WW2--a total victory and occupation to reform their government and, to an extent, their societies so that they themselves refuse to consider acting like this ever again.
That would ordinarily be way too much to consider, but when the Romulans just did the equivalent of a nuclear First Strike with zero provocation, and then followed it up with another such strike against another colony just because it could...yeah.
- Location
- his hidden lair
I do think NX weight ships are probably the future. The Stingray is about 2/3 the costs of an NX, but it sacrifices a lot of versatility and is going to be degraded by incoming fire more rapidly and be at greater risk of complete loss. I don't think completely discarding escorts doctrinally is viable, but I do think the tendency for a larger escort is going to emerge from the lessons of this war.
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- Location
- Somewhere in the Ashes
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The hell kind of bitch ass CLs are you getting for 14.33 industry each? The refit Stingray is 25, and that gets clowned on by warbirds.
No, this was the most efficient use of our resources currently available to us.