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Starfleet Design Bureau

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Strunkriidiisk said:
Why the hell would we waste the antimatter (and more importantly, the crew) keeping these things idling at a starbase for the possible eventuality of a conflict/threat big enough that we need The Big Stick? The likelihood of another major war scenario so soon after the first is unlikely, we have Stingrays to take up the slack of regular low-intensity patrol and anti-piracy work (and do so more efficiently, even if doctrine moves to having them patrol in pairs or something to avoid another ganking incident), and outside of a war our explorer-type heavy cruisers can generally be expected to outfight or outwit most things they expect to find, more often than not. So to keep the battleships in a state of readiness at a starbase is indeed wasteful - we don't IC know when they'll become needed but only reserving them for such a use is a waste of time and numerous resources that could be put to better use. Better to have them out doing Starfleet things (probably after a refit to give them more multirole capability) than to have them twiddling their thumbs waiting for another war - by which time they'll almost assuredly be obsolete.

Assuming they can't be refitted and are largely incapable of the sort of missions a peacetime Starfleet would more likely require outside of that, the more likely option is that the ships are mothballed in long-term storage - which rather defeats the purpose you posit of having them on-station as a defensive asset - or outright scrapped with the material recycled into more useful hulls.
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Having a a fully dedicated core of home defense ships inside Federaton territory ready and able to smash wohever starts shit is point in fact cheaper than not having dedicated warships and spending weeks/months recalling all the multi role explorers to form a battlefleet. We see the loses the Federation takes for not having such a defense multiple times.

From yesterdays enterprise we know that a Klingon first strike with presummarily cloaked ships on the Federations Industry leads to a surrender in circa 25 years of total war. Something that is not possible if a dedicated home fleet could stop such a deep strike.

Ash19256 said:
Do I really hope everyone chills out and goes back to "lets make cool multi-role or exploratory starships now that we aren't at risk of getting glassed by the Romulans" after the war? Yeah. Do I think we can afford to relax while the Romulans might have a second go at Earth's defenses at any time - and will likely be going after colonies or other members of the Coalition of Planets? No, not really.
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There is just the problem that I and some others do not like the Multi role stuff and we are trying to get a doctrine shift for dedicated designs in quest.
 
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Zimmerwald1915 said:
Yes? Obviously? Because there are any number of posts calling for indefinite retention of the dedicated warship role, and in an economy where resources are yet scarce you need some way to justify the expense (especially of replacing obsolete ships). And we know from, say, the non-occurrence of the post-Cold War peace dividend that the way to justify otherwise pointless indefinite military spending is to create new enemies. The aim of reshaping the fleet is attained by reshaping society.
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You realize historically navies almost always downsize after a major war right and the Cold War is a massive distortion brought about by 'peacetime' military spending? Granted I doubt we'll be nuking our own ships but still…

Moreover… we're going to be building 400-500kt ships sooner or later, this is only establishing that expertise and industry sooner. Moreover, it's genuinely insulting to pretend a response to outright attempts to exterminate our species is functionally indistinguishable to inevitable naked imperialism. It's a strawman moral equivocating that treats any militarism in response to being nuked as an eagerness to wield the whip hand.

How dare people be concerned with their safety as a significant portion of Earth was rendered uninhabitable for now due to an unprovoked nuclear exchange. How dare people build dedicated warships and see some value in them in a war where the stakes are billions of lives. How dare people speculate on ways to try and prevent Earth or any other world from being nuked again- because it's criminal to use that resource scarcity you bang on about on useless and immoral warships out of a human desire not to bury millions more civilians. I find your argument impossible to take seriously because of how chillingly callous and indifferent to millions of dead and the narrow survival of billions it reads. It's natural to be scared in the wake of that, treating that fear reaction as itself monstrous is just going to make your boogeyman real.
 
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My god this thread is full of the exact same kind of Dove that very nearly got the Federation destroyed by the Dominion. The ones Q attempted to discourage by reminding Picard just how many dangers are left in the galaxy.

Ya'll remember how the Enterprise C went down in the last thread? How upgunning the Ambassador class directly led to stronger relations with the Klingon Empire?

How we did the exact same with the NX class to our benefit? Or with the Stingray as a pure blooded warship?

QM is not going to punish us for prioritizing the ability to hurt the people threatening our own.

A warship in the hands of an enemy or an unknown is a threat yes, but a warship in the hands of a staunch ally is a reassurance. See the Pax Americana keeping the sea lanes open since the end of world war 2.
 
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An interesting idea for the DN could be to build a large primary hull-ship like the original canon NX, scale it up to say 400kt, and then have a post war refit that adds a secondary hull to enable a robust multipurpose ship once wartime expediencies are over.
 
I just hope we can mount guns on the saucers rim for once, perpendicular to the decks, so that those cannons can shoot forwards, backwards, and cover the entire port and starboard firing arcs.
 
DerechteNikolaus said:
But that is like a core part of the setting itself though? All our ships need at least some science to technobabble themselves out of situations.
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Okay first what has canon to do with what we do in quest? If we wanted canon stuff we can watch/read the series/movies/books. I am here for a chance to change federation ship designs to something different than multirole ships.

Also a dedicated warship that only spents its time on internal Anti pirate/border Patrol is not going to encounter anything new. It has no need for Science, oversized engineering, or large cargo spaces. For that you have dedicated designs.
 
Karugus said:
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As the agency which determines the options Starfleet has for procurement, it is in our interest as the SDB that Starfleet does not downsize, but rather that its procurement budget and need for new designs only keeps increasing. In other words, that the era of Excelsior-dependence we saw in the quest opening does not come to pass. This is the problem of militarism and navalism: the interest of the standing, salaried bureaucracy is to consume ever more of that portion of society's production crystallized in the state budget (and also to grow the state budget) until nothing is left for other social priorities.

And I do not think it is too much to be worried about militarism and navalism driving imperialism when we have seen the Romulan attack on Earth stoke questers' desire to be the nuclear hammer upon other nations. In an interactive quest I simply do not believe these things to be irrelevant. Otherwise, we would be reading a story.
 
Multirole ships will never not be built and used by Starfleet, especially during a more peaceful era. However I don't see why building dedicated warships is seen as a moral failure, especially in the wake of an existential military threat. We built the Stingray after all as our first ship, a dedicated anti-piracy vessel, because pirates kept on killing our poorly armed merchant ships. We'll also be building dedicated science ships in the future, so it's not like those who prefer specialists over multiroles are against peaceful explorer ships either, or is the NX-01 not a dedicated explorer?
 
Bedpotato said:
Okay first what has canon to do with what we do in quest? If we wanted canon stuff we can watch/read the series/movies/books. I am here for a chance to change federation ship designs to something different than multirole ships.

Also a dedicated warship that only spents its time on internal Anti pirate/border Patrol is not going to encounter anything new. It has no need for Science, oversized engineering, or large cargo spaces. For that you have dedicated designs.
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But I not talking about repeating Canon, I am only stating how this setting fundamentally works. And we do in fact know that it still works like back in the TV-Shows thanks to the many Retrospectives.
 
Tolack said:
We'll also be building dedicated science ships in the future
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"We," the quester base, will not - we never have. Certainly not in the mostly peaceful 24th century through which we have already played, and almost certainly not during the 23rd-Century-long cold war with the Klingon Empire.
 
Once the war is over, I imagine the wartime Dreadnaughts (and other wartime-designed ships, if we design multiple) will probably be kept in the Sol system (and/or the colonies, if there are sufficiently many) just in case another Surprise Genocide Attempt happens. I doubt they'll be refit. It'd be easier and more effective to design and build intentional peacetime ships, and there's going to be lingering fears of Surprise Genocide Attempts going forward for at least a generation, if not two or three.

The Stingrays and NXs will return to their original function of patrolling/exploring, it's not like they couldn't do that before.
 
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2156: Project Bulwark (Spaceframe)
  • Threadmarks
    • [X] Start work on a dreadnought in the four to five hundred thousand ton range. (8 Industry)

    At present Starfleet as a functional light and heavy cruiser in the Stingray and NX classes respectively, however one might consider their effectiveness. It is decided that given the technological disparity that the fleet would benefit from a battleship hull that can endure more punishment and dish it out, a kind of lynchpin that can form the heart of a battle group. With that objective in mind, the team starts work on the primary hull.

    There are three designs that seem to have the most potential, with different advantages and drawbacks to consider. The first is a flat arrowhead shape for the primary hull, which would provide aft space for engines and access points like cargo or docking ports. More significantly the overall shape would allow for phase cannon placement which would allow them to concentrate fire in the forward and side arcs. The disadvantage is that the significant reduction in internal space would make forward torpedo systems very difficult to fit, as well as substantially reducing internal space available for utility functions.

    The second option is a full saucer with a wider diameter than the NX. It's a proven design element and provides both internal space and plenty of mounting space for torpedo systems. It presents the potential for expansive phase cannon coverage of all surrounding vectors and firing lines as well as a much reduced minimal firepower threshold. Any attacker would inevitably be attacked right back, with no major weak points to exploit.

    The third and final option is a middle ground between the two. By trimming off the rear of the saucer it provides space for engines and other access points while also preserving many of the internal space and weapon advantages. However the shape of the cut-away means that this compromise would require an underslung secondary hull rather than any in-line alternatives, as the majority of the useful space is available in the center at the bulkiest part of the saucer.


    [ ] Arrowhead
    [ ] Full Saucer
    [ ] Half-Saucer

    Two Hour Moratorium, Please
     
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    • [ ] Arrowhead

    With an eventual secondary hull peacetime refit seems like it could be really cool aesthetically, and I want to avoid just making a bigger saucer
     
    Hmmm. I vote either Half or Full Saucer, I have no preference either way. Half Saucer may be advisable for those of you who were afraid the expense would turn the DN into a boondoggle, while the to-be traditional full saucer lets us fit more on there and gives the most combat power. I cannot recommend the arrow hull, though - not having torpedos is not worth the cheap and better forward fire. Not to mention it will effectively guarantee the DN will have no role in peace time, as we will not have room to spare for non combat modules.
     
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    We absolutely want a full-saucer here. I know that's not different than traditional Starfleet, but we're building a battleship to fight cloaked Romulan warbirds. That calls for as much all-around phase cannon coverage as we can get, because no matter what, this ship is not going to be as maneuverable as her opponents. This ship is going to be getting fired on from multiple angles, and needs to be able to respond to all of them equally.
     
    Sayle said:
    There are three designs that seem to have the most potential, with different advantages and drawbacks to consider. The first is a flat arrowhead shape for the primary hull, which would provide aft space for engines and access points like cargo or docking ports. More significantly the overall shape would allow for phase cannon placement which would allow them to concentrate fire in the forward and side arcs. The disadvantage is that the significant reduction in internal space would make forward torpedo systems very difficult to fit, as well as substantially reducing internal space available for utility functions.
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    Arrowhead

    + Aft Space for Engines
    + Access points for Cargo, Docking Ports
    + Phase Cannons
    - Torpedoes
    - Internal Space
    Sayle said:
    The second option is a full saucer with a wider diameter than the NX. It's a proven design element and provides both internal space and plenty of mounting space for torpedo systems. It presents the potential for expansive phase cannon coverage of all surrounding vectors and firing lines as well as a much reduced minimal firepower threshold. Any attacker would inevitably be attacked right back, with no major weak points to exploit.
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    Full Saucer

    +Internal Space
    +Torpedoes
    +Full Phase Cannon Coverage
    Sayle said:
    The third and final option is a middle ground between the two. By trimming off the rear of the saucer it provides space for engines and other access points while also preserving many of the internal space and weapon advantages. However the shape of the cut-away means that this compromise would require an underslung secondary hull rather than any in-line alternatives, as the majority of the useful space is available in the center at the bulkiest part of the saucer.
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    Halfway compromise option

    It seems like the Arrowhead option isn't so great in comparison?
     
    Mmm. So... maybe leave torps to the lighter classes while the BB focuses on plasma or phaser systems? And PD too since it's gonna draw the most fire from enemy missiles/torps.
     
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