Starfleet Design Bureau

If we build the dreadnoughts we'll probably have a chance to do a peacetime refit of them once the war end to make them more suited for that role.

Hmm, suppose the initial couple would be used as makeshift defence platforms.

Would the others be placed into task forces and sent on a direct course to Romulan space? Can't win a war purely on the defensive after all.

Can't we? Last time we lacked the volume of fire for fully intercepting them but if we get better at it and we keep killing their dudes, at some point they'll stop sending them. Is it the quickest way to end a war? Probably not. But it's possible.
 
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It seems to me that peace-refitting a dedicated warship, regardless of the size, would be rather difficult.
 
Can't we? Last time we lacked the volume of fire for fully intercepting them but if we get better at it and we keep killing their dudes, at some point they'll stop sending them. Is it the quickest way to end a war? Probably not. But it's possible.

That's a fair premise. Though I would argue that the status quo in TOS and SNW isn't something we should aim for.

Why have a Neutral Zone and 'totally not constant Romulan raids across the border' when you can push them for a proper peace treaty?
 
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We want a decent to high science just to deal with b******* everyone's different flavors of cloaking. There are ways to detect them indirectly, but unless you invest in that science score we'll never discover them.

That it will also let it fight the random encounter of the week not blind as well is a significant bonus.
 
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A HEFTY sensor package actually makes a ton of sense here. Early warning for incoming vessels, easier to keep track of a battle space full of high energy discharges and hard radiation, maybe even figuring out how to see through current model romulan cloaking devices.

And post war, leaves the vessel useful as a high endurance surveyor.


We will not be able to detect cloaked ships no matter how many sensors we stuff in, Sayle has said this multiple times.

If we are going down the route of actually making a big boi, it needs to be a heavily optimized warship. Given that we are facing an explicitly genocidal enemy there is no reason to fuck around or plan it out for future repurposing.
 
We will not be able to detect cloaked ships no matter how many sensors we stuff in, Sayle has said this multiple times.

If we are going down the route of actually making a big boi, it needs to be a heavily optimized warship. Given that we are facing an explicitly genocidal enemy there is no reason to fuck around or plan it out for future repurposing.
Ah well. Sensors remain useful, no ship in the galaxy can fire while cloaked at this point.
 
Can't we? Last time we lacked the volume of fire for fully intercepting them but if we get better at it and we keep killing their dudes, at some point they'll stop sending them. Is it the quickest way to end a war? Probably not. But it's possible.
I prefer not to base my military strategy on 'if we bat for a hundred on nukes, eventually they will stop dropping them'. A purely passive defense when the enemy can attack at will and we need to win every time while they need to 'win' once is a bad plan. We need the ability to force some kind of decisive battle and put a clock to their actions. Especially when our current victory is over millions dead and a major ecological disaster, that's an expensive gamble.

We personally don't need to invade Romulus but we need to create a scenario where we have major victories or at least brutal slugging matches where we have good showing, that we can point to our allies to get them to commit to create the material edge we need to create a sustainable peace. And canon was not really a sustainable peace as far as I'm concerned. Disarmament of Romulan cloaks, observers over major warp core facilities and AM production- the sort of thing where we can drastically lower the odds of a surprise 'let's kill billions for the sake of misguided real-politik' without having to furiously try and tear out pounds of flesh.
 
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We want a decent to high science just to deal with b******* everyone's different flavors of cloaking. There are ways to detect them indirectly, but unless you invest in that science score we'll never discover them.
QM veto on sensors defeating cloaks hasn't been lifted since the last time someone brought it up. What's more, improved sensors are not among the prototypes available for our latest creation.
 
If we build the dreadnoughts we'll probably have a chance to do a peacetime refit of them once the war end to make them more suited for that role.
Why? There's always a new genocidal enemy, or at least an enemy that can be built up as genocidal in the minds of the public.
 
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Yes it is, isn't it? Perhaps a good reason to not do that.
What are you even trying to say here?
"This is the future dreadnought supporters want" or something?

Replying to someone with some flanderized version of an argument you thing the side you don't support might make, then saying "Yeah its bad isn't it" to your own made up argument is at best fairly disingenuous.
 
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So you want to send our very expensive Battleships on surveyor missions instead of doing the far cheaper and less horrible thing and parking them at starbases?
Why the hell would we waste the antimatter (and more importantly, the crew) keeping these things idling at a starbase for the possible eventuality of a conflict/threat big enough that we need The Big Stick? The likelihood of another major war scenario so soon after the first is unlikely, we have Stingrays to take up the slack of regular low-intensity patrol and anti-piracy work (and do so more efficiently, even if doctrine moves to having them patrol in pairs or something to avoid another ganking incident), and outside of a war our explorer-type heavy cruisers can generally be expected to outfight or outwit most things they expect to find, more often than not. So to keep the battleships in a state of readiness at a starbase is indeed wasteful - we don't IC know when they'll become needed but only reserving them for such a use is a waste of time and numerous resources that could be put to better use. Better to have them out doing Starfleet things (probably after a refit to give them more multirole capability) than to have them twiddling their thumbs waiting for another war - by which time they'll almost assuredly be obsolete.

Assuming they can't be refitted and are largely incapable of the sort of missions a peacetime Starfleet would more likely require outside of that, the more likely option is that the ships are mothballed in long-term storage - which rather defeats the purpose you posit of having them on-station as a defensive asset - or outright scrapped with the material recycled into more useful hulls.
 
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What are you even trying to say here?
"This is the future dreadnought supporters want" or something?
Yes? Obviously? Because there are any number of posts calling for indefinite retention of the dedicated warship role, and in an economy where resources are yet scarce you need some way to justify the expense (especially of replacing obsolete ships). And we know from, say, the non-occurrence of the post-Cold War peace dividend that the way to justify otherwise pointless indefinite military spending is to create new enemies. The aim of reshaping the fleet is attained by reshaping society.
 
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Is it just me, or are people missing the essence of Star Trek and looking at it too much like a war simulator?
 
Yes? Obviously? Because there are any number of posts calling for indefinite retention of the dedicated warship role, and in an economy where resources are yet scarce you need some way to justify the expense (especially of replacing obsolete ships). And we know from, say, the non-occurrence of the post-Cold War peace dividend that the way to justify otherwise pointless indefinite military spending is to create new enemies. The aim of reshaping the fleet is attained by reshaping society.
have you watched Star Trek and are you familiar with its major themes?
 
[X] Start work on a light cruiser in the one to two hundred thousand ton range. (2 Industry)
I'm inclined to go with this - given the size of the NX-class, we could essentially start with that design and just trim the exploratory fat off of it, or make something similar to the canon NX-class (with the option to later convert it into a multi-role vessel with a refit, potentially). Not to mention, if the pulsed phase cannons have to be forward facing, Defiant style, then something this small will be able to implement them better just because it'll be more maneuverable than the other options.

[X] Start work on a medium to heavy cruiser in the two to three hundred thousand ton range. (4 Industry)
That said, I also wouldn't be opposed to a medium cruiser design - something trending a little slimmer than the NX-class, but rigged up for even greater combat potential, would be excellent. Obvious points for modification would be deleting the shuttle-bay in the aft of the saucer section for an additional torpedo launcher, swapping the science labs or workshop for troop capacity or greater capacity for armaments, and updating the phase cannons to the pulsed model (if they're turreted). After the war, these ships will be either able to be converted into multi-role designs by cutting down on extraneous armaments (if potentially less capable than the NX-class), or scrapped and rebuilt as multi-role NX-class ships (possibly a NX Refit design, leveraging the more advanced tech to improve capability for more than just tactical operations).

I'm not 100% against the Dreadnought concept if it does win, but I'm dubious that it will be able to be built in enough numbers to actually be super useful - and I'm also dubious about how easy they will be to refit, considering how heavily their hulls will need to be built, and the fact that there's no benefit to building them from the keel up with refit headroom. Thus, any future "multi-role" refit for the dreadnoughts would likely have to cut-back on armaments to avoid problems similar to the Constellation class (ie., "I can give you hull polarization or Warp 4, but not both").

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Is it just me, or are people missing the essence of Star Trek and looking at it too much like a war simulator?
Well, part of the rationale for that is that, Trek or no, the United Earth is at war at the moment. And this is a war where-in the opponents have decided to open the war with a cobalt-jacketed nuclear first strike - which means that operating under the assumption the war has to be fought, potentially all the way to Romulus' front door if necessary, makes a lot of sense.

Do I really hope everyone chills out and goes back to "lets make cool multi-role or exploratory starships now that we aren't at risk of getting glassed by the Romulans" after the war? Yeah. Do I think we can afford to relax while the Romulans might have a second go at Earth's defenses at any time - and will likely be going after colonies or other members of the Coalition of Planets? No, not really.
 
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Is it just me, or are people missing the essence of Star Trek and looking at it too much like a war simulator?
Also probably slipping into the To Boldly Go mindset, where we had much broader operational control. We would do well to remember (and I include myself tbh) that we don't actually have a say on doctrine, what Starfleet (when it forms) does with the ships we're discussing either now or after the war, or anything of the sort. We build ships, and we have rough control of what they can do and how many of them the fleet will include in composition, but we have no say beyond that.
 
Suggestion for a dreadnaught class name
The Cutlass Class
with each ship being named for a different type of sword
 
have you watched Star Trek and are you familiar with its major themes?
I recall at least two movies (The Undiscovered Country and Into Darkness) where the heroes thwarted Starfleet plots to undermine peace with rival powers as well as the popular sovereignty and elected leadership of the Federation for the purpose of artificially inflating their own agency's budget to build warships. The bad outcomes are a real possibility in Star Trek, and its message is not that we should rely on the arc of the moral universe (or QM fiat) to stay on the good course, but to work at building and maintaining it.
 
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I recall at least two movies (The Undiscovered Country and Into Darkness) where the heroes thwarted a Starfleet plot to undermine peace with a rival power for the purpose of artificially inflating their own agency's budget to build warships. The bad outcomes are a real possibility in Star Trek, and its message is not that we should rely on the arc of the moral universe (or QM fiat) to stay on the good course, but to work at building and maintaining it.
And if we were playing Star Trek Civ quest i'd agree, but we're doing ship design not setting cultural policy, so im going to assume we'll mostly be following cannon culture, and in both those movies the deceptive Starfleet elements were considered immoral to their cultures and stopped by good people when they found out.

These arguments funnily have convinced me of the strength of the multirole big ships even though im voting Battleship now, we need a BB now to make up our tech gap by building big and pure combat, but i don't want to build many of them and they're going to be of limited use after the war making them wasteful.

E: maybe 2-4 BBs over the course of the war as fleet leaders, all the rest of our industry into NXs and Stingrays
 
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