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[X] Dual Engines [Cost: 99] (Maneuverability: Maximum) [200% Standard]

Also I think if we keep banging out ships that can theoretically go faster if Starfleet can just get better inertial dampeners then Starfleet will invest more resources in developing better inertial dampeners.

Also - "Scotty, divert power to inertial dampeners. Initiate maneuver 'piss off the yard staff'. Full power to engines."
 
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uju32 said:
I suspect the Vulcans at least are more likely to commission Excelsior-knockoffs when that project comes to fruition, but they might settle for Federations at the moment. Everyone else though, Feddies or Mirandas
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Do they really have any reason to build Federations when they currently operate those monstrous 500,000 ton Kisharas?

They probably won't bother adopting a Starfleet design until we start building real explorers.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
Also while shields scale with mass, they do not do so along a linear line from 0/0. There is a baseline shield value for having shields, then you get a little extra per Kton.
A twice as big ship does not have twice the shields.

Also even just being mostly able to chunk through the shields in a phaser salvo is great. That just means we needed to have winged them with a photon torpedo area blast prior to closing into phaser range.
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Point of caution:
These rules apply to us.
We cannot assume that they apply to NPCs with different or more advanced techbases, or even different applications of those techbases. The Kzin suicide sleds come to mind here
 
uju32 said:
Point of caution:
These rules apply to us.
We cannot assume that they apply to NPCs with different or more advanced techbases, or even different applications of those techbases. The Kzin suicide sleds come to mind here
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Yeah, but if anything I would think the star empire that has spent a lot of time building extremely punchy little ships has their tech base tuned to produce extremely powerful but small shields, and that they lack the framework to get the most possible out of scaling up to sizes that are, to the Klingons, unprecedented sizes.

Their big shields are still likely powerful, but I doubt they are getting as much out of that size as a civilization that building big ships is part of their doctrine.
 
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Lohjak said:
Do they really have any reason to build Federations when they currently operate those monstrous 500,000 ton Kisharas?

They probably won't bother adopting a Starfleet design until we start building real explorers.
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True

But it is also true that they only operate seven Kisharas at the moment, down from a high of twenty
Might be cheaper to pick up half a dozen Feddies to back up the Kisharas in the meantime, than to build the same number of Kisharas and start working on a comprehensive refit and upgrade program

Im assuming the Four Year War spooked everyone in the Federation's MIC, not just Starfleet

Fouredged Sword said:
Yeah, but if anything I would think the star empire that has spent a lot of time building extremely punchy little ships has their tech base tuned to produce extremely powerful but small shields, and that they lack the framework to get the most possible out of scaling up to sizes that are, to the Klingons, unprecedented sizes.

Their big shields are still likely powerful, but I doubt they are getting as much out of that size as a civilization that building big ships is part of their doctrine.
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I genuinely cant say

My usual assumption from observing computers, ships and aircraft is that its much harder to squeeze sufficient power into a small mass-volume budget than when you are allowed to work with more space
So I would expect their tech to be significantly more effective in bigger ships with more powerful reactors and more space for redundancies and cooling

But thats just my guess
 
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uju32 said:
True

But it is also true that they only operate seven Kisharas at the moment, down from a high of twenty
Might be cheaper to pick up half a dozen Feddies to back up the Kisharas in the meantime, than to build the same number of Kisharas and start working on a comprehensive refit and upgrade program

Im assuming the Four Year War spooked everyone in the Federation's MIC, not just Starfleet


I genuinely cant say

My usual assumption from observing computers, ships and aircraft is that its much harder to squeeze sufficient power into a small mass-volume budget than when you are allowed to work with more space
So I would expect their tech to be significantly more effective in bigger ships with more powerful reactors and more space for redundancies and cooling

But thats just my guess
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I expect their big ships to have more shields than their small ships. What I don't expect is for them to inexplicably not be caught in the same sort of mass to power mechanics we are.

And yes you get more space with bigger ships, but you may not have the experience using said space to it's maximum efficiency, meaning you are still fundamentally souping up a smaller shield into a bigger one rather than having something more bespoke to application
 
Fouredged Sword said:
I expect their big ships to have more shields than their small ships. What I don't expect is for them to inexplicably not be caught in the same sort of mass to power mechanics we are.

And yes you get more space with bigger ships, but you may not have the experience using said space to it's maximum efficiency, meaning you are still fundamentally souping up a smaller shield into a bigger one rather than having something more bespoke to application
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Or they might be willing to run more permissive tolerances on safety shit than Starfleet would tolerate
Or a larger supply of strategic materials, or their greater familiarity with a more advanced techbase might allow them to come up with solutions that we cant actually implement

There's just too many unknown variables to speculate IMO
 
Fouredged Sword said:
Also while shields scale with mass, they do not do so along a linear line from 0/0. There is a baseline shield value for having shields, then you get a little extra per Kton.

A twice as big ship does not have twice the shields.

Also even just being mostly able to chunk through the shields in a phaser salvo is great. That just means we needed to have winged them with a photon torpedo area blast prior to closing into phaser range.
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No, our mechanics do start at 0 tons/0 shield output. They stay linear until 100kt, and slowly fall off in efficiency past that. But at 300kt efficiency is nearly 1, the falloff doesn't become serious until multi-million ton starships. Klingons might have faster falloff and a lower threshold, but I doubt that the issue is much more serious than for us given their ships are still much smaller.
 
Sayle said:
But yeah that mass is outscaling the costs for engines and whatnot probably means that in the TMP transition there needs to be some consideration given in regards to building an engine calculation based on inertial damper maximums and RCS power from first principles, not just caveman bonk rock number on other rock number. Which describes a lot of systems under the hood, frankly, but I've always been doing this on the fly and this initially just started as a kitbash/art quest. Feature creep is definitely at play.
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A straightforward extension to the current system might just be to have shield or hull technology increase the maximum usable thrust to mass ratio. Could get messy comparing to existing ships or warbook ships though.
 
Golgotha said:
I'm also leaning towards two Type-4 and maximum prototype phasers. I don't want the expense of two RFL.

I could honestly forgo aft torpedoes. The phasers are there to punch down, the torpedoes are at the front to punch up.
And this thing isn't running in warp and trying to shoot backwards. It's defending things.
At most I want standard cheap torpedoes in that position.
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Keep in mind, last I saw phasers can't fire at warp... That is... Kind of important if you have to run away from something. Torpedos Can, but only on-axis, which is why we only get forward and rearward launchers and no broadside mounts for them, unlike phasers.

Xon said:
For all Startrek's faults, the failure modes of experimental tech tend to be more survivable than experimental tech from Stargate.
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Non-experimental tech (like control consoles) on the other hand...
 
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Chargone said:
Keep in mind, last I saw phasers can't fire at warp... That is... Kind of important if you have to run away from something. Torpedos Can, but only on-axis, which is why we only get forward and rearward launchers and no broadside mounts for them, unlike phasers.


Non-experimental tech (like control consoles) on the other hand...
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At least we know what the console rocks are now...
 
Chargone said:
Keep in mind, last I saw phasers can't fire at warp... That is... Kind of important if you have to run away from something. Torpedos Can, but only on-axis, which is why we only get forward and rearward launchers and no broadside mounts for them, unlike phasers.

Non-experimental tech (like control consoles) on the other hand...
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An aft torpedo isn't even that expensive. It's basically ~45 average damage on the back arc if someone really tries to hug our tail, making it a dumb idea and good fleet battle aid in addition to chase deterrent.

Chargone said:
Non-experimental tech (like control consoles) on the other hand...
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I mean, most settings don't use plasma as the main energy transmission method for a good reason. :V
 
Wootius said:
An aft torpedo isn't even that expensive. It's basically ~45 average damage on the back arc if someone really tries to hug our tail, making it a dumb idea and good fleet battle aid in addition to chase deterrent.



I mean, most settings don't use plasma as the main energy transmission method for a good reason. :V
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Turns out the room temperature superconductor was plasma all along...
 
darkstarling said:
Turns out the room temperature superconductor was plasma all along...
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Not so much room temperature when appaarently the electrical stuff in the ship is powered by way of very efficient heat to electricity conversion units pulling heat out of the Very Hot plasma near the intended use point.

Which is to say they're less electrical cable and more steam pipe, conceptually.
Or so I'm lead to believe by youtube videos/comments on the subject.

The conversion really shouldn't be happening in the control consoles...
 
Chargone said:
Not so much room temperature when appaarently the electrical stuff in the ship is powered by way of very efficient heat to electricity conversion units pulling heat out of the Very Hot plasma near the intended use point.

Which is to say they're less electrical cable and more steam pipe, conceptually.
Or so I'm lead to believe by youtube videos/comments on the subject.

The conversion really shouldn't be happening in the control consoles...
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Proving once again that all of human technology is simply more advanced ways to boil water.
 
Chargone said:
Not so much room temperature when appaarently the electrical stuff in the ship is powered by way of very efficient heat to electricity conversion units pulling heat out of the Very Hot plasma near the intended use point.

Which is to say they're less electrical cable and more steam pipe, conceptually.
Or so I'm lead to believe by youtube videos/comments on the subject.

The conversion really shouldn't be happening in the control consoles...
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This is accurate. But presumably the people in the show know what they're doing... even if it seems like nonsense to be dramatic...
 
The Federation isn't outmaneuvering any of the Klingon battleline even with maxed maneuverability. How can it be an effective torpedo boat even with maxed maneuverability if all the ships it can be expected to face in it's lifetime will be able to manuever onto a non-Torpedo-facing arc?

Maybe the K'Tinga, if it 'only' has standard maneuverability, but it's all but certainly being designed against the Excalibur soooo-

Honestly I think a full spread phaser coverage while accepting terribad maneuverability is the correct route forward? If we take a Type-5 Phaser Bank with 24 Damage, +1/3 for mass scaling, you get 36 Damage? That's kind of a lot?
 
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