Starfleet Design Bureau

Then why even bring it up as if it were a relevant factor for this discussion to begin with?
Because for some reason you interpreted "coverage" as the range of a single ship, which is hardly relevant for us right now? We ships because we need them to go to places to do things, and having more ships means we can do more things in different places at the same time. Individual larger ships will have more range if we give them bigger antimatter tanks, but they're going to have similar effective response ranges as anything else with the same warp core, so more ships covers more territory.

@Lohjak you saw the posts that phasers and shield scale with size now right?
Only the torps don't scale but you can fit more on a larger ship.
The last design was literally on the edge of viability due to mass we had to take a lot compromises with module and warp core placement. If we had 50k more mass the ship would be a lot better due to the 2 more modules we would fit.
We have been following our briefs for most part even if in some cases we have been creative in interpretation, the last time we had almost a blank check we build the Sarga.
Shields scale with size, but I haven't seen anything saying that phasers do too. You can fit more torps, but they're the single most expensive component aside from maybe the warp core.

The Excalibur was not on the edge of viability, it's likely capable of consistently winning a 1v2 against the D7. None of the modules have had any real impact on the tactical capability, which is the entire point of the ship. They'd definitely make it less useless during peacetime, though, and maybe we'd have even gotten a few more post-war. We'd probably be able to build fewer 230,000 ton ships though, seeing as how that's closer in mass to a Kea which was specifically called out as hard to build, as opposed to the Saladin which was adopted because the Kea was hard to build. Not so important in peacetime, a huge problem when it's our only ship that can fight D7s.

This is an insane statement. It's one of our largest ships designed, especially in the present era, and we managed to squeeze both a lot of torpedo firepower (plus engine power/manoeuvrability) and decent selection of modules into the ship, which we know has and will serve it well in both war and peace - the very definition of a good design.
The Sagarmatha, Thunderchild, Kea and NX are all larger, and the Saladin ties it in mass. 180,000 tons is, as demonstrated by the Saladin, the upper end of what we might call a light cruiser. It's not small, but it's hardly a large ship. The Excalibur has also been called out as being rather lacking during peacetime, being used as a glorified patrol boat until it was finally allowed to serve as a makeshift explorer. The reason Starfleet adopts dedicated explorers to begin with is that too many Excaliburs die during the Pathfinder Missions, which is certainly a legacy.

And it's just not an incredible feat of design to pick the options that make it shoot good and hard to kill while skimping on things that don't affect that as much. We even made a choice (thrusters) that spent a bit extra to make literally no difference to the ship itself, after we had decided on a half-saucer in part to mount an odd number of thrusters.

So far I can recall, wasn't it recently decided that phase power was going to scale with ship mass? This was because of exactly this problem where you couldn't get more firepower in larger ships except by putting more torpedoes on them.
I don't recall that coming up? There was some discussion about it during the Excalibur design, but it's not been mentioned in anything threadmarked that I can find. The technology post was also last edited a month after all of that and doesn't seem to mention any phaser scaling, we've since had a vote on phasers on the Attenborough, and the shield scaling post exists. I guess it's possible that it was implemented in the background, but I don't think I've seen it anywhere that would make sense so far, and it's been like two months. Maybe we'll see it soon?
 
I don't recall that coming up? There was some discussion about it during the Excalibur design, but it's not been mentioned in anything threadmarked that I can find. The technology post was also last edited a month after all of that and doesn't seem to mention any phaser scaling, we've since had a vote on phasers on the Attenborough, and the shield scaling post exists. I guess it's possible that it was implemented in the background, but I don't think I've seen it anywhere that would make sense so far, and it's been like two months. Maybe we'll see it soon?
Well I can't definitely confirm if it was done as such, but there were some comment from the QM on it here and here. So they may or may not have gone ahead with it like that then.

If they did implement as that, then power scaling for phasers taps out around 400 ktons right now and would then reduce some of the benefits of scaling up beyond that size as you'd be forced to go more torpedo heavy then. If it does work like this right now, then further scaling will probably be unlocked by future phaser technologies.

In any case, our current ship is about 100 kton, so it would then have gotten just base damage then if it is now in use.
 
@Sayle are you going to go ahead with the whole greater ship mass = greater phaser firepower thing?

Given the back and forth seems to be at least partially because of that I figured it was best to ask.
 
It's probably much better for phasers to scale with ship size as otherwise they become kinda ornamental.

Even for smaller ships.
 
You also need more people than are strictly necessary for all these workloads (i.e. more than the bare minimum workforce), so that unexpected absences (due to illness, injury, or psychiatric breakdown) don't result in a shortfall.
^^^
Thank you for pointing that out.

The fundamental issue about building a ton of cheap ships with Adequate Everything is that a sufficient concentration of force can and will slap it down so long as a critical threshold is reached in terms of a gap in effective combat power
Another issue that people tend to overlook is crews.

Crews are not free.
Unlike the Klingons or the Romulans, there is no inherent societal imperative in the Federation to push the best and brightest into the military, and Starfleet is in constant competition with the civilian sector for those people.

There is a limited pool of people with the competency, flexibility and multidisciplinary skills that Starfleet insists on in its space-going personnel, and even fewer of them meet the judgement and ethical requirements to serve.

Of those, only a fraction are willing to give up years of their life on a tin can in deep space with a couple hundred other people and the risk of death from anything from exotic megafauna, imperialist hostile nationstates and random negative space wedgies out of nowhere.

So when they get those people, Starfleet cannot exactly afford to put them on ships that will die or take significant casualties in each combat action.Captains and crews like Picard and Kirk dont exactly grow on trees, and take decades to foster to effectiveness, which doesnt happen if you get them all killed.

Not to mention that a reputation for significant losses will make Starfleet recruitment even harder.


And that judgement thing is important. Assuming photon torpedoes of the 2240s have 40 megaton nominal yield, a single Starfleet ship with enough antimatter for 250 photon torpedoes has 6-10x the combined megatonnage of every nuclear state that currently exists in 2024 just in weapons, not counting the fuel in the M/AM chamber.

You really want a very high degree of confidence in everyone who might come into control of that much firepower, from the captain to the cook.

My favorite spaceships are tiny spaceships.
There's a place for small specialist ships. But you're not likely to see very many of them.
I mean, even races with a much better techbase than the Federation like the Borg build big instead of swarms of small ships.
There's presumably good reason for it.

The Excalibur is literally light cruiser mass. It's classified as a heavy cruiser, but in fact masses the same as previous light cruiser designs.
No such thing as far as I know.
The D7 is currently categorized as a battlecruiser despite being around half the size of the Kea.
Class is determined by role and loadout, not by mass.

It's a reduction of 36 burst/12 sustain, from the Excalibur's frontal damage of 126 burst/66 sustain. The Attenborough will have 90 burst/54 sustain, and if that won't kill something the Excalibur won't either. I mean, unless it just takes a bit longer and the Attenborough would die first, but you get the point.
IIRC, our ships can engage two targets at a time. So that drop of capacity does materially affect ship offensive capability
And that doesnt count the loss of redundancy in the event of battle damage, like we saw with the Joyeuse during the Battle of Andoria.

AFAIK Project Copernicus was the last project where we selected the largest possible hull for our ship. Honestly it'd be nice to make a supergiant ship sometime soon.
Another Orb ship would also be nice in the future but I don't think the thread is willing to remotely contemplate the idea.
I suspect the Archer replacement will be a big(140m+, 200-300 kiloton-ish) full saucer with inline deflector, no secondary hull and a detachable cargo pod. Which should allow for both massive engineering capacity and a significant combat loadout, as well as sufficient shield strength to survive hostile encounters.

And the option for a quick dockside operation to detach the pod and make the ship faster/more maneuverable if war breaks out.
 
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It was already implemented for the Excalibur, yes.
Thank you, I'd honestly kinda forgotten about that (and I suspect most people had, given the speculation as to if it was actually going to be thing going forward).

Would it be possible for you to update the tech sheet (or make an independent post, like with the shields and their values per 100kt) to include the firepower values per 100kt? The post doesn't seem to mention anything about it at the moment.

Oh, and for the interest of the other quest participants, a table that I'd only noticed in my perusal of the tech section.
Tier 3 (+2 Science)Plant Sciences
Tier 2 (+1 Science)Biochemistry
-> <-​
Exobiology
Tier 1 ModuleChemistry
-> <-​
Biosciences
-> <-​
Arboretum

Tier 3 (+2 Science)Pharmacology
Tier 2 (+1 Science)Advanced Medical
-> <-​
Biochemistry
Tier 1 ModuleSickbay Expansion
-> <-​
Biosciences
-> <-​
Chemistry
 
In the size arguments:

The Excalibur has a Cost of 97.5. This is a benchmark for a bigger, better ship.
The Attenborough has a cost of 67.5. This is about as low a cost as you can possibly squeeze out of a ship with decent tactical capability, sitting right at the mass breakpoint for maximum performance from a single engine. And it's still half as effective as an Excalibur.

Small ships aren't getting anywhere. Ripping out the labs to add a rapid-fire launcher to a an Attenborough would make it comparable to an Excalibur in burst damage... at an additional cost of about 12, raising the cost of the small, specialized combat ship to 79.5.

By making a stripped down specialist you have saved... 18 cost. A cost savings of about 15-20%. For a ship that hits as hard as an Excalibur, but can't do anything in peacetime except carry mail, and has substantially worse defenses.

Size is cheap. Really, really dirt cheap. Small combat ships aren't worth building, since the majority of their cost is in the weapons systems from square one. Bring on the flying city blocks. It turns out the Borg did do their research, and the 'gigantic flying cube' school of ship design is in fact an objectively superior way to build a warship.

Edit: fixed math. Small ship slightly better, but you're still getting maybe one or two extra ships per tranche. Just not worth it at all.
 
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Size is cheap. Really, really dirt cheap. Small combat ships aren't worth building, since the majority of their cost is in the weapons systems from square one. Bring on the flying city blocks. It turns out the Borg did do their research, and the 'gigantic flying cube' school of ship design is in fact an objectively superior way to build a warship.
Here's the thing though. Even IRL, size had always been cheap. Big dumb metal bricks to lug shit places is actually fairly cheap and easy. It's just big dumb metal. It's the things that you put inside it that always rack up the costs, the specialist hardware and labor, the cost in manufactured goods and rare earth minerals that go into producing the specialty components.

It's why suezmax ships are cheap as chips compared to say, an Aircraft carrier or something. One is big dumb metal, the second is a floating military airport at sea, even if the suezmax ship is absolutely fukheug
 
Something to note is, crew/other costs typically go down as vessel size goes up - automation is much easier at scale, as is not requiring massive amounts for miniaturisation when you can just stick the stuff in an existing scale/have more room to play about with it.
 
Because for some reason you interpreted "coverage" as the range of a single ship, which is hardly relevant for us right now? We ships because we need them to go to places to do things, and having more ships means we can do more things in different places at the same time. Individual larger ships will have more range if we give them bigger antimatter tanks, but they're going to have similar effective response ranges as anything else with the same warp core, so more ships covers more territory.
That's flatly not true, and the Archer-class outright disproves it since we picked that higher anti matter capacity explicitly to both extend it's range and that of other ships it gets sent out to resupply.

A choice which bore out, in both respects
 
Wow, I've been busy all day and this is a lot of argument. But to clarify on my statment of a successor to the Archer being called the Tucker class
I wasn't suggesting we would need to make it for a few more ship designs, let's focus on building our defensive fleet back up first. Considering that it had a 90? year life I think we can wait a bit more.

Another Orb ship would also be nice in the future but I don't think the thread is willing to remotely contemplate the idea.

I do think that ORB ships should only be considered for Engineering and Transport specialist designs. Also looking back at what happened to the Archers, we should consider a few improvements:
More phasers for greater coverage - more rear coverage MUST be included.
Rear torpedo tube?
Fit that rear phaser thats usually blocked by the pod - We thought the ships would be able to dump cargo and run away if needed. So much for that plan.
Configure the nacelles for max cruise - combined with the (hopefully soon) 4th generation nacelles and it should be able to outrun the enemy's older ships and drastically improve on delivery times.
Large or Super Sized cargo pod? - depends on the ship speed and penalties at that point.
 
Please let's not build a Curry. it makes the Oberths look amazing. I'd say we take inspiration from the Class III Neutronic fuel Carrier.

 
Whilst I've not really done a proper size comparison, you could probably have two regular cargo pods underslung from that, when it isn't just carrying the neutronic fuel
 
That's flatly not true, and the Archer-class outright disproves it since we picked that higher anti matter capacity explicitly to both extend it's range and that of other ships it gets sent out to resupply.

A choice which bore out, in both respects
You still don't seem to understand why having more ships lets you service more territory. Let's put it this way: At Tarsus IV, the more Archers we had built, the closer we would likely have an Archer, and the faster the response time. If we weren't so overstretched, perhaps the Archers alone would've been able to detect and respond to the incident. Greater range can marginally improve response time as you might be able to avoid detours to refuel on especially long trips, but our ships tend to have months of fuel anyways so if it's that far away your response time was bound to be slow anyways.

Now, the Excalibur solved Tarsus IV by being much faster, which has a much greater impact on your emergency response range. But it doesn't solve the problem of simply not having enough ships to be able to respond to incidents in a timely manner, and it's still slower at doing performing tasks in different places as two ships.



The Excalibur has a Cost of 97.5. This is a benchmark for a bigger, better ship.
I mean, the problem I have with this is that if we assume that the difference between the Attenborough and the Excalibur is in fact minimal in terms of production rate, and that this continues to hold true with more mass, then the Excalibur is actually pointlessly small. It's on the edge of being a much better generalist explorer with just another module or two for engineering and science, and if the cost to get there is just 15% or so then there's no reason not to when it improves tactically by more than that. So really the only ships we should ever build are probably Sagarmatha equivalent ships that make no real compromises, since even a very specialized budget light cruiser in this system costs 60% as much and is much less useful.

So then what's the point of the quest at all? If a 270,000kt battlecruiser-explorer is going to be produced just 15-20% less than an Excalibur, why should we ever design anything else? At that mass we have the module space to make it effective at everything, and if the Klingons could barely deal with the Excalibur they're going to keel over at the sight of this thing that has 50% improved defenses and phasers.
 
That isn't up for discussion in the first place, though. Maximum effective production is under way by default
Well, I was arguing under the premise that smaller ships were in any way viable. If the production rate actually scales directly with cost, then there's no reason to build anything other than Sagarmatha sized vessels that can carry the modules of two specialists slapped together and dramatically superior tactical for less than double the price.
 
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