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as some one said its the Mirandas time, parts compatibility with the Excalibur, cruise config, generalist loadout.
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It also explicitly deprecates specialist vessels in all but a minority of scenarios
If you're gonna hang a science station weeks from resupply, you need a shit ton of support for the actual scientists who are doing research, from the officers who actually operate the station's functions, to cooks and maintenance techs, plumbers and doctors. There is no such thing as a cheap station under those circumstances.
Let me point at a RL reference. McMurdo Science Station in Antarctica has a minimum population of 200 people in winter, and around 1000 people in summer. Thats in an Earthside station that is always in communications contact and less than 36 hours from a plane landing on the local airstrip in an emergency.
You are basically talking the population of a manned vessel, just to support the actual scientists.
We are not hanging triple or quadruple digit people out in an undefended station in deep spac.
Even in Federation space.
Thats like adopting cats and leaving them outside in an area infested with coyotes.
If its important enough to demand that Starfleet build a space station to study whatever it is, instead of laying down constellations of satellites and coming back to collect recorded data?
It demands doing properly.
Given the many, many shipboard systems - AM, Warp Cores, high-power engines, so on and so forth - that are explicitly neither necessary nor particularly conducive to an awful lot of things a station can do, I think you're objectively wrong here and by a sufficiently large margin that it fucks your entire cost-benefit analysis into uselessness.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I think the logic here is "We're never going to have as many ships as we need to meet all of our needs, because the fundamental limits of strategic resources, so we need to ensure every ship we do build is capable of doing as much as possible."
It's cheaper on strategics after all to build one big warp core and all the stuff attached to it than it is to build three smaller warp cores across three separate ships.
The Excalibur was the proof of concept, in that they were expensive single hulls but capable of doing extreme amounts of Work, and they could be rolled out in great enough numbers to compensate for otherwise being outnumbered, while still being useful outside of their intended niche.
It's cheaper on strategics after all to build one big warp core and all the stuff attached to it than it is to build three smaller warp cores across three separate ships.
The Excalibur was the proof of concept, in that they were expensive single hulls but capable of doing extreme amounts of Work, and they could be rolled out in great enough numbers to compensate for otherwise being outnumbered, while still being useful outside of their intended niche.
You significantly underestimate the required station systems for a self contained outpost in space.
The only analogous ship systems absent here are warp and impulse drives.
You need power systems for the station; fusion and/or solar cells, plus backups. That needs an operating crew.
You need computers. That needs an operating crew.
You need life support, from air and water recycling to shields against such routine space weather as solar flares and micro meteorites. That needs a crew.
You need a clinic, because injuries and emergency medical conditions cant be medevacced. That means a doctor and medics.
You need a logistics section to manage supplies and spares. Thats yet more people.
You need a command crew that actually has authority over the entire station. More people.
You need enough people on duty for those essential things(power, life support,) on shifts around the clock so you dont all wake up gasping for air; assuming 6-hour shifts, thats 4-shifts on a 24-hour day cycle.
I am pretty confident that you cannot operate such a space station with less than two hundred people
And thats not counting the actual eggheads and their gear.
Which will require people who can maintain it, because specialty gear has limited user-serviceability.
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
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You also need more people than are strictly necessary for all these workloads (i.e. more than the bare minimum workforce), so that unexpected absences (due to illness, injury, or psychiatric breakdown) don't result in a shortfall.
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I don't like feeling that we have to put a bunch of eggs into one basket, and having to make massive ships is definitely triggering that feeling. I just think the federation might be taking the wrong lessons to heart. The ship size is not the issue, the fact that we don't have enough to cover everything is an issue. One that seemly is stuck in a loop of ships expensive -> we need to explore to get materials to build ships -> martial/ colonies get raided because big ships are off exploring -> we can't counter the pirates because ships to expensive/ not enough of them -> we try to start designing a ship to help -> loop repeats.
I hate the feeling of running in a logical circle.
I hate the feeling of running in a logical circle.
I think I am just to frustrated at everything to be thinking things. Cause my brain is thinking thing in terms of real-life navy power and to be blunt, the whole building a few large ships that can do everything leads to issues of large assists not being in positions to protect things. If all of our assists are off exploring who will protect everything? We can't build small ships to provide escorts (to expensive), and based on how some people in this quest talk we shouldn't build space stations either to do defense (to many people required).
My simple question is as follows. WHO DEFENDS THE COLONIES? Because we sure are not. Star fleet is supposed to protect the federation, that means BEING THERE. Not next week, or the next day, it means being on station to provide support. Whether that be a space station holding the line or an escort that was in the area that can hold off a pirate attack until help can arrive.
I am going to ask everyone in this thread another question. Where the Stingray-class, Skate-class Frigate, Selachii-class Heavy Frigate, a waste of materials? These three classes were bare-boned, escorts made to protect the federation. They allowed the federation to grow without worry of pirates murdering the trade ships or holding orbitals. However, now we are in the same situation as before. Even before the war, we were having issues of pirates running rampant because of how old we let the escorts get without a replacement. And apparently, we can't replace them with a similar-sized vessel because too expensive + not worth the money.
Bigger does not equal better, bigger equals more cost in materials, more crew, and more fuel. This can be offset by having them be multi-purpose which is good. However muitli purpose means that we can run into the issue of the big ships being off station doing exploring and not having a ship to cover them because they are more expensive. Space is big, and the federation is bigger than otl, which leads to the fact that there is more to be lost when something goes wrong and the nearest vessel is days or weeks away. While the warp 8/9 warp cores help I don't personally think they can cover distances fast enough to respond.
My simple question is as follows. WHO DEFENDS THE COLONIES? Because we sure are not. Star fleet is supposed to protect the federation, that means BEING THERE. Not next week, or the next day, it means being on station to provide support. Whether that be a space station holding the line or an escort that was in the area that can hold off a pirate attack until help can arrive.
I am going to ask everyone in this thread another question. Where the Stingray-class, Skate-class Frigate, Selachii-class Heavy Frigate, a waste of materials? These three classes were bare-boned, escorts made to protect the federation. They allowed the federation to grow without worry of pirates murdering the trade ships or holding orbitals. However, now we are in the same situation as before. Even before the war, we were having issues of pirates running rampant because of how old we let the escorts get without a replacement. And apparently, we can't replace them with a similar-sized vessel because too expensive + not worth the money.
Bigger does not equal better, bigger equals more cost in materials, more crew, and more fuel. This can be offset by having them be multi-purpose which is good. However muitli purpose means that we can run into the issue of the big ships being off station doing exploring and not having a ship to cover them because they are more expensive. Space is big, and the federation is bigger than otl, which leads to the fact that there is more to be lost when something goes wrong and the nearest vessel is days or weeks away. While the warp 8/9 warp cores help I don't personally think they can cover distances fast enough to respond.
The fundamental issue about building a ton of cheap ships with Adequate Everything is that a sufficient concentration of force can and will slap it down so long as a critical threshold is reached in terms of a gap in effective combat power
Which means the entire concept of building small kind of falls flat in the face of the principal threats that Starfleet faces going forward past towards the TNG era, those being the Dominion and the Borg, who are living and breathing embodiments of concentration of force to relative extremes
The Excaliburs won the war, not the logistics of the Federation on its own merits. The takeaway here is that Federation Logistics are a powerful force multiplier, but without a sufficiently powerful force to be multiplied in the first place Starfleet eats losses it doesn't have to in pitched combat
One can very easily claim that the primary cause of the Federations success in its major conflicts was constant underestimation by its adversaries buying them time and opportunity to leverage its existing advantages
That will not persist, especially with the Romulans
Which means the entire concept of building small kind of falls flat in the face of the principal threats that Starfleet faces going forward past towards the TNG era, those being the Dominion and the Borg, who are living and breathing embodiments of concentration of force to relative extremes
The Excaliburs won the war, not the logistics of the Federation on its own merits. The takeaway here is that Federation Logistics are a powerful force multiplier, but without a sufficiently powerful force to be multiplied in the first place Starfleet eats losses it doesn't have to in pitched combat
One can very easily claim that the primary cause of the Federations success in its major conflicts was constant underestimation by its adversaries buying them time and opportunity to leverage its existing advantages
That will not persist, especially with the Romulans
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Yeah, I feel like our powerful logistics are how we got away with using our Excaliburs in sprint configuration so often, which were by far the fastest thing in the current quadrant, pushing against the physical limitations of our current nacelle model to get there. Which let us win battles we had no business winning because we could make them be in more places at once than our enemies could deploy the counters to our Excaliburs, and by the time they could wind up for another go, we've already reloaded, refueled, and gotten a maintenance cycle done.
small ships to cute please dont stop building them ;_;
like being stuck just building big ships doesn't sound fun.
like being stuck just building big ships doesn't sound fun.
LunaMoth
Wings of Kynareth is my comfort song...
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My favorite spaceships are tiny spaceships.
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
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Verging on impossible, unfortunately. The Archers were decommissioned from Starfleet after 2310 (18 years before Miles was born) and only four continued in private service after that, while Miles apparently went direct to Starfleet as soon as he was able.
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Dang, that sucks, being on an Archer would have practically been being in a toy story for Miles.
TheShadowDeamon
Mighty Dragon
Perhaps when we do the successor ship it could be the Tucker Class?
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I vote we double down on Orb, and even more engineering.
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Didn't the defiant which is a small tactical focused ship play a rather large role in both of those threats. The dominion uses frigates to act as escorts to there capitals, and we saw 3 of those take out a galaxy. The borg where again held off by escorts/ light cruisers like the defiant, Steamrunner, Akira, Saber and Norway classes. They damaged the cub a reduced its ability to self repair so the sovereign could get the critical hit. Last thread even had a small ship that was pretty effective against the borg.
Basically escorts did exist and where being used effectively.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
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"Military strategy is built strategy."
In other words, your military's strategy is based on the military you create and the assets you build for it. If your fleet is built out of mostly non-combat (and no, "can protect itself from meager pirates" does not count) designs, it's going to have a terrible time in a war.
I think the key takeaway from this war is that when you are designing a navy, you want warships to be available to fight a war.
It's no surprise that the only ship that shined when we had to fight a war was the only class we had that Starfleet laid out the design requirements for as "this is a warship". Shocking, that when you design warships, those ships perform well in war. (I'm aware that the Selachiis didn't perform well here, but they were both really old and often employed against superior numbers, superior firepower, and equal maneuverability--they were the sacrificial skirmishers and did their jobs as best as could be asked for.)
Starfleet needs to be in the business of designing ships for war, with other uses secondary. This is because you can't have peace if your military is designed for science missions and cargo/engineering missions and not warfare. Because then someone sees that you're an easy target and fights you with their warships and most of your fleet is not fit for purpose because they were designed to survey space and haul cargo and not fight warships.
It's perfectly fine to have logistics and engineering assets. But you have to keep in mind that your fleet's strength is primarily your warships, and if 90% of your fleet is not designed to fight in a war then you're going to get your face punched by those who do prepare for war.
Let the civilian sector focus on economic missions. Starfleet is for security for the Federation. That means being prepared for war with warships and defensible stations. Exploration is fine and dandy because knowing what's out there is a security concern on top of diplomatic purposes (which can often be security-related). But unless the nebula you want to survey is way out in dangerous space, leave the surveying to non-military-grade ships, and if they do need to be protected, bring an escort ship.
In other words, your military's strategy is based on the military you create and the assets you build for it. If your fleet is built out of mostly non-combat (and no, "can protect itself from meager pirates" does not count) designs, it's going to have a terrible time in a war.
I think the key takeaway from this war is that when you are designing a navy, you want warships to be available to fight a war.
It's no surprise that the only ship that shined when we had to fight a war was the only class we had that Starfleet laid out the design requirements for as "this is a warship". Shocking, that when you design warships, those ships perform well in war. (I'm aware that the Selachiis didn't perform well here, but they were both really old and often employed against superior numbers, superior firepower, and equal maneuverability--they were the sacrificial skirmishers and did their jobs as best as could be asked for.)
Starfleet needs to be in the business of designing ships for war, with other uses secondary. This is because you can't have peace if your military is designed for science missions and cargo/engineering missions and not warfare. Because then someone sees that you're an easy target and fights you with their warships and most of your fleet is not fit for purpose because they were designed to survey space and haul cargo and not fight warships.
It's perfectly fine to have logistics and engineering assets. But you have to keep in mind that your fleet's strength is primarily your warships, and if 90% of your fleet is not designed to fight in a war then you're going to get your face punched by those who do prepare for war.
Let the civilian sector focus on economic missions. Starfleet is for security for the Federation. That means being prepared for war with warships and defensible stations. Exploration is fine and dandy because knowing what's out there is a security concern on top of diplomatic purposes (which can often be security-related). But unless the nebula you want to survey is way out in dangerous space, leave the surveying to non-military-grade ships, and if they do need to be protected, bring an escort ship.
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Nowhere does it say that all of our ships need to be large, expensive warships that can 1v3 enemy capital ships. Those will be the best warships, but Starfleet is expected to contribute more than patrols with dedicated capital killers in peacetime. We're still going to need a bunch of light engineering cruisers to replace the first ships ever fielded by Starfleet and the Newtons.
We could of course exclusively field heavy cruisers from now on, but then our problems with being overstretched would get even worse, and we mostly ended things in a draw against the Klingons by having all that territory and industry. The problem is not that we had Newtons, the problem is that we didn't have any remotely modern heavy warships prior to the Excalibur, and the Excalibur only worked because we took a ton of new technology on it.
With what ships are the civilians going to be doing that with?
Starfleet's composition was at the beginning of the war overwhelmingly filled with engineering cruisers, and although ancient vessels like the Cygnus were kept in service we were still overstretched. It's pretty clear that there's no civilian equivalent that can pick up the slack, and it's not like Starfleet has a monopoly on shipping or anything. They certainly aren't going to be transporting antimatter or prospecting for military-only strategic materials.
Orb is is too restrictive combat wise.
Now, putting a tow hitch on the engineering section of the Miranda... just gives us an incentive to add an extra impulse engine.
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It's an engineering vessel, the hell are you doing trying to make it a warship?
Starfleet currently operates something like half or less of the ships that we had pre-war. We're not really in a position to build ships that can't hold their own.
You say that the Borg were held off, but wasn't that ruinous cost and only by the grace of the Enterprises technobabble wizardy did it amount to anything?
Setting aside that the Defiant was developed after several years of technological development as a direct response to encountering the Borg
As Lohjak noted, we just got done getting told "stop building ships that can't hold their own in a fight" by the Quest.