Starfleet Design Bureau

If that was the case, how did the Federation even survive? If Starbase One was sacked, Earth was wide open and the Federation's power broken.
You're assuming the Klingons broke the Federation's power before sacking the Starbase.

As they've just demonstrated, lunging for the loot before the war is won is something Klingons do, and if Starfleet didn't think they'd be that stupid they could have made the same error seen here - and then taken out the Klingon forces while they were scattered looting.
 
Um.

Roman subsistence farmers were wealthier than Greek subsistence farmers, and not by accident; the Romans intentionally intervened in local land distribution of their subject populations to ensure they had wealthier farmers.

This wasn't out of benevolence, to be clear; Republican Rome took its taxes and tribute in the form of trained and armed soldiers, and the kit of the standard Roman soldier cost more to acquire than the kit of the Greek elites.

The appropriate comparison for the Klingons here is Sparta.
I'd argue that comparing the Klingons to Sparta is an insult to the Klingons. The Klingons produce formidable warriors, tactically peer or superior ships, can manage the logistics of an interstellar campaign of conquest even with enemy raiders savaging their supply lines, and don't have a population consisting of 70% slaves. The Klingons attack us with Klingon fleets, not fleets consisting mainly of armed slave troops with a minority of actual Klingons that view not doing work (including martial training--yes, seriously) as a virtue.

The Klingon Empire adapts, evolves, grows, and believes that the strongest deserve to rule rather than the rulers being the ones born from the oligarchic few that no one can earn their way up to through merit.

It's hard to adequately describe how terribly run Sparta was, and why the Klingon Empire is vastly better. Every year, Sparta's leadership would ceremonially declare war against its own slaves. It was a rite of passage for young spartiates (the actual citizens of Sparta with voting rights) to go out at night and murder any slave they felt was too uppity or just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sparta was the biggest polity of Greece by far and yet it was economically poor, consisting overwhelmingly of horribly treated slaves that had as much as half of their subsistence farming taken from them to go towards the spartiates who prided themselves on doing no work or training (because hoplite fighting is really simple and requires little training). They didn't even produce or sponsor art, because that was work, and people who work were beneath them.

The Spartan polis (it wasn't a city-state because there was no city; Sparta was five towns, roughly) couldn't manage a year-round campaign two days' walking from its own territory even with raiding enemy farmland to supplement its supplies. It was politically stable by permanently banning anyone who was poor or not born of the tiny citizen minority from power, and repeatedly and brutally putting down slave rebellions. Sparta's collapse came about because the number of citizens dwindled to mere hundreds from the consolidation of citizenship and wealth to increasingly fewer oligarchs, until they were so weak that Thebes propped up one of Sparta's towns (and where most of its slaves lived) into its own polity that was strong enough to resist how weak and dysfunctional Sparta had become.

The Klingon Empire, for all of its dysfunction, produces art, has a rich culture, believes in the value of merit and deeds elevating one to higher power, shows that it can adapt and grow its state rather than stay the same until its inevitable decline brings it to ruin, and does not run a massive slave economy just so its wealthy citizens can laze about doing nothing all day deliberately.
 
If that was the case, how did the Federation even survive? If Starbase One was sacked, Earth was wide open and the Federation's power broken.

Starbase One was only sacked to give the designated Heroes the fate of the Federation on their shoulders. The Klingons didn't seem to ever have any actual strategic direction or objectives other than just killing people and being scary. I dunno, blame the writers. As it's own continuity (lol hologram communicators, uggo grey ship bricks, pew pew phasers) Discovery would stand okay on its own, but as part of a wider Star Trek canon it's kind of shit and nonsensical.
 
The Klingon Empire, for all of its dysfunction, produces art, has a rich culture, believes in the value of merit and deeds elevating one to higher power, shows that it can adapt and grow its state rather than stay the same until its inevitable decline brings it to ruin, and does not run a massive slave economy just so its wealthy citizens can laze about doing nothing all day deliberately.
Fair enough. That probably makes the better comparison one of the Macedonian successor states, then.

(Because, as you pointed out, Klingons don't have their subject populations do any fighting for them. Not the way the Spartans did, with slave soldiers, and not the way Rome did either, as "equals" who'd get a full share of the loot and could earn themselves Roman citizenship. Macedonians, meanwhile, put a lot of effort into making sure "elite warrior" was a status reserved for Macedonians.)
 
I don't think there is much civilian consumption of starship-grade materials. They don't need dilithium for antimatter reactors or tritanium for super-alloys. This is still predicated on the idea that if you need more of something, more investment will get you more of it over time. If you run out of dilithium your FTL infrastructure slows down to needing two years to get from Earth to Vulcan. The answer isn't "invest more in dilithium mining" because as a vital resource as much of it is being mined as is possible already. The answer is 'commit more ships to finding dilithium deposits'. Which you did. So you found more, so you can build more ships. The same applies for most of the other super materials, too.
As a counterpoint, often times it's not a limitation of natural resources as it is the infrastructure invested into for producting/extracting the resources critical for stuff like ships.

For example, the US could produce a lot more steel than it currently does if it suddenly had the economic or military necessity of doing so, by investing lots of resources and some manpower into extracting more iron and producing more steel. Same is true with stuff like uranium or semiconductors.

While some deposits of rarer or high-demand materials are better than others, the usual qualifier is "how easily accessible is it and how cheap would it be to transport it in bulk to where it needs to go for further work", as long as there is enough of it in the deposit to warrant investment in the first place.

Saudi Arabia has the best oil deposits in the world, but that isn't stopping the US from extracting more oil than Saudi Arabia does from its own deposits, or from extraction being done in deposits under the ocean or thick ice. There is a lot more to be tapped than we are currently extracting, but the benefits of further investment into extracting from available deposits is the question.

Starfleet just needs more investment into its infrastructure for extracting/processing/producing strategic materials. Finding more deposits can be useful because they can present lower hanging fruit than extracting more from existing deposits, but the idea that existing Federation worlds are maxed out on extraction and processing is ludicrous.

This war is showing that massive investment is needed from the Federation for producing more ships. It's basic survival at this point; the overwhelming need is there and so the governments will open the faucets of funding and make that investment themselves in huge sums rather than waiting for demand to naturally progress.
 
The hull itself is honestly not ideal. We sacrificed a decent amount in order to give it landing capabilities, which is far more useful for a dedicated biosciences ship but not so much a generalist utility cruiser. Something of the same size as the Darwin but with a full saucer, proper deflector and bigger engineering hull would be better.
The hull doesnt have to be ideal, just good enough.
We will have a pressing need, and cant afford to wait a decade for some new design to get out of
The perfect is the enemy of the good.

Swapping the arboretum for a medical bay won't make it less sciency, even if it would lower the Science Score. So in that circumstance, it would still be a science cruiser. It might make it a medical science cruiser instead of a botany science cruiser.
But it will give it sufficient ancillary capabilities to fill that role regardless.
The Selachii was a tactical frigate that still had a cargo bay to help move small amounts of cargo.

Do note how much of a gamechanger that Warp 8 capability is for logistics. It substantially cuts transit times for cargo across the Federation, and allows widely dispersed ships to concentrate much faster, resulting in functionally greater available firepower in the event of major military threat.

Starfleet has every motive to get most of its fleet converted to Warp 8 yesterday.
Especially in the aftermath of a war with an enemy with Warp 8 drives entering broad service.
It's not our job to decide that the small, well-specialized bioscience cruiser should in fact be a small, generalist utility cruiser. If Starfleet wants that, they can order it, or just strip out equipment from the Darwins to make it better in that role.

And why would Starfleet want to ask us for that? The SFDB regularly makes weird design choices which often produce very nice ships, but I certainly wouldn't describe us as a safe option. If I wanted someone to design a reasonable utility cruiser to bulk out the fleet, I'd go with San Francisco which has a proven track record of designing ships which are affordable and serviceable, and who actually follow design briefs. I bet that San Fran wouldn't take a brief for a small, well specialized science cruiser and consider turning it into a generalist after designing the thing to land on the ground like a shuttle.

And really, if you need an affordable, tactically capable utility cruiser, are you going to ask the Archer guys or the Newton guys?
It is very much our job.Thats the point of the quest.

We have been doing much the same thing since the quest started; the entire configuration of the Pharos-class starbase design was us looking at then extant geopolitical situation and deciding what capabilities to emphasise.
Starfleet has always given us a pretty free hand with defining ship secondary capabilities.


Starfleet would ask us because we have a track record of successful Warp 8 designs; we built their first Warp 8 ship, and already have an almost-complete second Warp 8 design for mass production when the war ends.
A design thats ready to go right now is vastly superior to one that will be ready in a decade's time.

I genuinely dont know where you are getting the impression that our ships are more broadly expensive than those from the other bureau(s); as far as Im aware, thats never been implied.
Besides, the QM has made it clear that the primary bottleneck on ship construction isnt cost but strategic materials.

Given what Sayle said about the economics of ship building I'd like one of the modules of our 'cheapo light crusier design" to be equipment for strategic resources prospecting. Let's find and exploit those resources so thst we can have an even larger fleet 30 years down the line.
Yeah, science modules that allow for prospecting strategic materials, whether its astrography for likely star systems or physical prospecting just went up in priority on most of our future designs.
 
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Some people are really upset about the war that we win. But we're not playing as Starfleet. We're playing as Starfleet's Ship Design Bureau. And by all accounts the Excalibur class ships that we designed are a complete terror. Meanwhile, everything past the Excalibur's design isn't up to us. And it's not up to Starfleet command, or Federation councilors either. It's up to Sayle. And Sayle chose to depict a dramatic war where Starfleet is the underdog. Not an underwhelming conflict where Starfleet made optimal decisions and never faced any setbacks. I'd enjoy the latter far less than the gripping narrative we're getting.
 
I genuinely dont know where you are getting the impression that our ships are more broadly expensive than those from the other bureau(s); as far as Im aware, thats never been implied.
For as long as we've had rival bureaus, we've tended to hand in more expensive ships than our rivals have. Not necessarily by much, and we've provided significantly more capability for that little extra cost... so long as you don't specify military capability.

We picked up our rivals right about the time we stopped building combatants, though I'm pretty sure that's coincidence. Or maybe there were more arguments in the thread that "SanFran will pick up our slack if we don't build combatants" than I remember.
 
Some people are really upset about the war that we win. But we're not playing as Starfleet. We're playing as Starfleet's Ship Design Bureau. And by all accounts the Excalibur class ships that we designed are a complete terror. Meanwhile, everything past the Excalibur's design isn't up to us. And it's not up to Starfleet command, or Federation councilors either. It's up to Sayle. And Sayle chose to depict a dramatic war where Starfleet is the underdog. Not an underwhelming conflict where Starfleet made optimal decisions and never faced any setbacks. I'd enjoy the latter far less than the gripping narrative we're getting.
I like it as well, doesn't mean that I can't criticize the past Navy leaders or whoever decides the spaceship budget instead over committed to colonizing instead.
 
I will say, I'll be happy when this fucking war is behind us so we can learn the lessons and move on, instead of constantly feeling bad that we didn't make every ship also be able to double as a respectable tactical cruiser even when it was feature creep and we're on a budget.
 
The Federation probably will not learn much from this.

They need to keep being just insufficient in foresight and fleet power to allow heroic crews to save the day time and time again.
 
The Federation probably will not learn much from this.

They need to keep being just insufficient in foresight and fleet power to allow heroic crews to save the day time and time again.

The lesson to us is that "Every ship needs to be a B in Tactical at a minimum (And ideally an A if we can get it cheap enough, since that's the actual benchmark apparently to be competitive with peer powers), even at the cost of the ship's intended role, because Starfleet will not authorize the procurement of dedicated tactical ships even in the face of an existential crisis, so we need to force them to accept ships that can at least hold the line in the meantime, even at the risk of diluting the intended purpose of the spaceframe."

The thoughts on churning out the SDB Miranda-class after this as a Utility Cruiser that is also a formidable fleet combatant feels about right.
 
For as long as we've had rival bureaus, we've tended to hand in more expensive ships than our rivals have. Not necessarily by much, and we've provided significantly more capability for that little extra cost... so long as you don't specify military capability.

We picked up our rivals right about the time we stopped building combatants, though I'm pretty sure that's coincidence. Or maybe there were more arguments in the thread that "SanFran will pick up our slack if we don't build combatants" than I remember.
Have we?
To my knowledge its never been actually specified; we were responsible for both the Selachii and the Archer, which are the two largest classes of ships ever built by Starfleet.

Ergo Starfleet has by and large been quite satisfied with what we have produced for the cost.

The only two times that we and San Francisco have had competing designs, it went thus:
12x Keas(us) vs 16x Saladins(San Fran)
40x Archers (us) vs 30x Newtons(San Fran)

And both times, both the Keas and the Archers had longer service lives than their San Fran rivals.
I dont remember who did the 4-ship Radiant class, just that it wasnt us.
 
The lesson to us is that "Every ship needs to be a B in Tactical at a minimum (And ideally an A if we can get it cheap enough, since that's the actual benchmark apparently to be competitive with peer powers), even at the cost of the ship's intended role, because Starfleet will not authorize the procurement of dedicated tactical ships even in the face of an existential crisis, so we need to force them to accept ships that can at least hold the line in the meantime, even at the risk of diluting the intended purpose of the spaceframe."

The thoughts on churning out the SDB Miranda-class after this as a Utility Cruiser that is also a formidable fleet combatant feels about right.
That would get quite boring quickly and stuff like the Archer is not going to be made by such a policy.
 
The lesson to us is that "Every ship needs to be a B in Tactical at a minimum (And ideally an A if we can get it cheap enough, since that's the actual benchmark apparently to be competitive with peer powers), even at the cost of the ship's intended role, because Starfleet will not authorize the procurement of dedicated tactical ships even in the face of an existential crisis, so we need to force them to accept ships that can at least hold the line in the meantime, even at the risk of diluting the intended purpose of the spaceframe."

The thoughts on churning out the SDB Miranda-class after this as a Utility Cruiser that is also a formidable fleet combatant feels about right.
Not only did we build more Excaliburs than the canon Constitution, we built more of them even though the Excalibur is much more expensive than the Constitution was. Looking at the cost disparity here, it's clear our efforts to improve the Federation's economy have made a difference. It's also clear from the price tag that Starfleet is taking things extremely seriously.

A lot of the complaints people are making in this thread are just factually wrong, and it's getting frustrating at this point. There are a lot of reasons we wound up in this war, and it's not just because the rest of Starfleet is asleep at the wheel.
Again, Starfleet is throwing an incredible amount of resources into crash-building a fleet of dedicated tactical ships.
 
I think we can get away with making tactically weaker ships so long as we don't make two in a row. The Kea and the Archer are both fine ships, it's just having both running around with weaker tactical abilities on the assumption that they can be bailed out by actual fighting ships when necessary doesn't work when there are no fighting ships around.
 
And both times, both the Keas and the Archers had longer service lives than their San Fran rivals.
In both of those cases, the SanFran design had better scores on Cost. Which is what I said.

I did not say they had better bang for the buck... outside of the fact that our ships were noncombatants, and took up too much of Starfleet's total displacement for that fact.

I think we can get away with making tactically weaker ships so long as we don't make two in a row.
"Two in a row" isn't the metric I'd use, but I'd agree that it took a lot of choices on our parts for this particular outcome, and we can afford some noncombatants. Especially if they're very low-mass.

If a third of Starfleet's ships hadn't just been vaporized and we were not desperately in need of a Warp 8 fleet, I'd have said the Darwin would have been a good example of a design we could do that with.
 
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It is very much our job.Thats the point of the quest.
Yes, it is our job to fulfill the design brief as well as possible, not to take the design brief and twist it into something it isn't. Putting a cargo bay and expanded medical labs onto a small ship that was ordered as a biosciences ship is not fulfilling that design goal.

I genuinely dont know where you are getting the impression that our ships are more broadly expensive than those from the other bureau(s); as far as Im aware, thats never been implied.
A Brief History of the Kea and Saladin-class Starships
Class Paper, 2340.


…the competency of the Kea-class was not in question, and when the prototype underwent trials in 2211 it was clear that it represented the absolute state-of-the-art in scientific capability. But its sheer size and expense, even with the cost-cutting measures inherent in its design, prompted consideration of other designs by Starfleet Command. While there were several initial proposals, the only true rival was from the Starship Design Bureau itself. While the Utopia Planitia design team had pioneered the Kea, the San Francisco group less than a light-hour away had been at work on their own proposal... The Kea-class proved more complicated to produce than the Saladin-class, taking two years to produce each against the Saladin's one.
The Archer compares much more favorably in terms of cost than the Kea and the Saladin at only a B- to the Newton's B, and SFB delivered a reasonably budget friendly phaser emplacement while we all know what would've happened if we designed a defense satellite.

The only two times that we and San Francisco have had competing designs, it went thus:
12x Keas(us) vs 16x Saladins(San Fran)
40x Archers (us) vs 30x Newtons(San Fran)
18 of those Archers were procured post-war to replace losses, which there were presumably a fair number of. As of 2240 Starfleet fields 30 Newtons, which make up something like a third of Starfleet's combat capable vessels. They also operate 16 Saladins. Of the combat capable ships that we've designed, we have 22 refit Selachii, 12 refit Kea and 10 Sagarmathas, which are either ancient or very expensive. The Excalibur was a collaboration between the two bureaus, and I'm pretty sure San Fran did some of those refits.

Maybe the SFDB will give ships a bit more punch after the war, but if I were Starfleet I'd note that the SFDB seem to err towards the side of skimping on tactical capability more often than not. There was a 35 year period between 2190 and 2225 where we didn't design a single reasonably capable combatant, which was made up for largely by San Fran's Saladins and Newtons.
 
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So what I'm hearing is:

1) Starfleet/Federation really needs to hire more xenopsychologists (or at least Klingon/Romulan Culture Experts) on permanent duty, since psychology of other cultures is not a job description limited to observing pre-FTL cultures.
2) More torpedoes, more, torpedoes are the only answer to everything combat-related
 
because Starfleet will not authorize the procurement of dedicated tactical ships even in the face of an existential crisis
I took the lack of a war-time crisis design to indicate that with the existing parts infrastructure to produce combat-capable craft, and the minimum size requirements for a feasible design, the actual time required to go from design to produced ships joining the war is longer than four years. We could crash design in earlier eras because the minimum requirements for an effective design were a quick enough turn around to be worth commissioning.

Also, that if the thread had wanted to design something for the war, it should have picked the defense satellite.
 
This constant discussion on hyper-militarizing ships because we aren't steamrolling everyone else in a war is wearing on me.

@Sayle

Do we need to ensure every ship we design from now on has high-end tactical capabilities regardless of their actual function?
 
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