Starfleet Design Bureau

That's because the decision is not realistically between standard or heavy covariant. Heavy covariant simply costs far too much and is very unlikely to win.

I think that odds are good that we will eventually go with standard covariants, which are fine, but limit the future refit capacity of the ship. For the same price, we could get the same shield strength with the possibility of upgrading the shields down the line, at the cost of not advancing covariant shields.
Oh, I am well aware that the high cost of the Large Covariant Shields are making people reluctant. as I have previously stated, however, I strongly believe that they are the correct choice for the ship we have built, at the time we are building it, with the job it was made for. And I will say so until I am blue in the face on the off chance of convincing enough people to vote for it.
I dont agree.

Like I said, there are strategic concerns for the entire service with regards to pushing technological advancement; its an investment in the service as a whole, not just this ship class.
And this Federation is supposed to be significantly wealthier than its canon counterpart at this point in time.

If they cannot spend more money on military ships on the eve of a major war, then where is the money for?

We're building a capship killer blind, without much IC knowledge of the pacing threat's capabilities
We are obliged to bring our A-game.
Only when you are sure your ship can achieve the goal do you start worrying about cost-efficincies.
This is also an excellent argument that bears repeating. Stronger shields will mean they are damaged less often, and when they are damaged less severely, on average. We think that the standard Covariant or large basic shields would be sufficient, but I would rather put large Covariants on it and be able to state with a clear concense that we gave the Starfleet the best possible ship our technology allows.
 
Precisely, it speeds up the time for it to Mature and unlocks the ticker for the next tier, if we wait until the next design, it just sits at Standard until we push the trigger and doesn't get the advantage of shittons of field data that we get from using it in a heavily produced vessel.
We do still have to worry about getting a bad tech implementation roll affecting the first run of ships, however, which could actually be a big problem if it happens in the current situation.
 
We got both, omg. Not even going to vote on Shields I'm so happy.



Never mind with standard shields our price is under 80 for the second run. GIVE IT TO ME.

[x] Type-1 Standard [27 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 84.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 78.75]
[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]
 
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But remember it's Prototype->Standard->Mature tech. So there is still merit in pushing Type 1 Covariant Shield technology.
Yes, but is that merit greater than being able to refit what is likely going to be the backbone of our fleet with heavy covariant shields down the line?

Oh, I am well aware that the high cost of the Large Covariant Shields are making people reluctant. as I have previously stated, however, I strongly believe that they are the correct choice for the ship we have built, at the time we are building it, with the job it was made for. And I will say so until I am blue in the face on the off chance of convincing enough people to vote for it.
Sure, but people probably won't vote for it, so the next best thing is heavy standards that we can upgrade to covariant down the line. This class should have a pretty long service life.
 
That's the heavy standard. Multiple people have guesstimated the maths and it's likely at least an entire extra ship produced before the war with the same fighting capability.
Actually, if you want to increase number of ships produced in the short term, the option of choice should be the Standard Type-1. Heavies in general are much less cost-effective than the smaller types. Admittedly, they make up that to some degree with increased survivability, but argually we have other advantages to help with that.

Standard Type-1: Optimal cost-effectiveness. Future refit-option for improved defense.
Heavy Type-1: Improved defense, future refit-option for optimal defense. Still a reasonable price tag.
Standard Covariant: Improved defense, tech advancement, no refit option. Still a reasonable price tag.
Heavy Covariant: Optimal defense, tech advancement, but the cost is arguably prohibitive.
 
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The 2257 war is not canon to the quest, and AFAIK this applies to the whole of Discovery.

And you are ignoring what I have already repeatedly pointed out, that across the fleet the relative increase to shield power must be greater than the relative cost increase for it to even out. Because increasing cost per ship means we get fewer ships and less total weapons output. As well as just strategically covering less space.
And this is a divergent timeline. This particular war is apparently due to show up three decades early, with geopolitical implications that we cannot predict.
Assuming that there will be no further major conflict after this one is at best unwise.

Im not ignoring it, I just dont agree. Thats not a metric that Im aware has been used here.
We are a different, bigger, richer Federation that can afford to pay for more ships or more development to eke out that additional performance which might end up decisive in a combat scenario.

If relative increase to shield powr was the critical factor, you'd be voting for Heavy Covariant, which provides 25% more shield strength than Large Standard for only 20% more cost, dropping to 25% more shields for 13% more cost.
Honestly we have very little to go on in terms of how the Constitution stacks up to the D7 in TOS. We know the Connie was built to to fight the D7 and can infer Starfleet apparently thought it was up to snuff, and we see the Connie fight a D7 twice (debatably in Errand of Mercy, but it's shown as a D7 in the remaster), winning both times, despite the Klingons getting the first shot in both engagements. If I had to judge I'd say it seems like the Enterprise is somewhat superior overall, although not massively so.
I dont think we can assume that this is a canon D7 either.
A war 3 decades early points at significant divergences on the Klingon side as well.
 
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It probably isn't that uncommon for warships to get refit during a war as damage and general wear and tear forces them into dry dock making upgrades more cost effective because you're already in the guts of the ship anyway.
 
I imagine by the time we get around to refits we will have Type 2 Shields at least the prototype cost. We aren't going to have a refit before the war starts, it's probably 15 to 20 years down the line. So yeah I think Standard Covariant is the right decision.
 
My primary concern right now is cost. We were supposed to keep this thing cheap, we picked several of the most expensive options, and a few of the mid price options. A cut has to come somewhere, and standard shielding isn't a huge drop in capability for me.
 
Fun fact, 8 is 22% of 36, so it's already more value for the resources invested into it, and will only become moreso in the future. The question we have to ask is whether we want 20% more durability per ship or (roughly) 10% more ships, period.
But we already have around 40 durability of hull, so the actual defensive increase is only around 10%. 10% more ships means 10% more firepower. So basically we pay 10% more long term, 20% more short term, in return for negative fleet combat capability now and none long term. And we have fewer ships, which means strategically they do not cover as much space.
 
I mean, I don't think pushing Covariant shielding when the Federation didn't have it at this point in the timeline is necessarily going to make much difference to the war? Or is necessarily, like, vitally necessary to Starfleet when they did fine without it.

It's certainly nice to have in general, but given so much of our legacy fleet is using the older Type-1 shields, the impact seems limited. The Rapid-Fire Launcher will probably make more of an impact; it's a tripling of our torpedo firepower and can be retrofitted more easily.

I dont think we can assume that this is a canon D7 either.
A war 3 decades early points at significant divergences on the Klingon side as well.

I think we can and should, both because it is our only data point, and because we know that other designs we don't meddle with generally remain the same.

But perhaps more importantly because otherwise this sort of thing invites players to invent some sort of imaginary D7 which conveniently happens to support[insert argument they were already making].

We should ask @Sayle whether the D7 in this timeline will have been doing steroids and lifting weights compared to its OTL version, though.
 
I imagine by the time we get around to refits we will have Type 2 Shields at least the prototype cost. We aren't going to have a refit before the war starts, it's probably 15 to 20 years down the line. So yeah I think Standard Covariant is the right decision.
We just got covariants like 60 years after we got standards, we're probably not getting Type-2 shields until like 2280. The war is supposed to start in 2240, so we're almost definitely going to have a refit after the war but before we get Type-2.

We should ask @Sayle whether the D7 in this timeline will have been doing steroids and lifting weights compared to its OTL version, though.
Didn't Sayle already say that we don't know anything concrete about the D7?
 
I voted for the expensive options in the other votes, because I thought we were going to massively cost cut somewhere, think I'm voting for the cheapest shield.
 
I would argue in fact that it's not even really about cost, but whether you believe that a ~15 ships with low to moderate durability, ~12 ships with average durability, or ~10 ships with high durability (to use some arbitrary numbers) will be more decisive in an immediate conflict with the Klingons in light of our other ships and the known and reasonably extrapolated capabilities of the Imperial Klingon Navy.

Because that's what we are really deciding here.
Obviously, I believe that, in light of the information we currently have, a smaller number of more capable vessels will be more decisive in an immediate conflict, which is why I intend to vote for Large Covariant Shields.
 
This is also an excellent argument that bears repeating. Stronger shields will mean they are damaged less often, and when they are damaged less severely, on average. We think that the standard Covariant or large basic shields would be sufficient, but I would rather put large Covariants on it and be able to state with a clear concense that we gave the Starfleet the best possible ship our technology allows.
But more ships mean that the attritional load will be distributed across a larger fleet. Fewer ships means more strain on crews to cover the same objectives, more ships having to go out without full repairs because no alternative is available.
And this is a divergent timeline. This particular war is apparently due to show up three decades early, with geopolitical implications that we cannot predict.
Assuming that there will be no further major conflict after this one is at best unwise.

Im not ignoring it, I just dont agree. Thats not a metric that Im aware has been used here.
We are a different, bigger, richer Federation that can afford to pay for more ships or more development to eke out that additional performance which might end up decisive in a combat scenario.

If relative increase to shield powr was the critical factor, you'd be voting for Heavy Covariant, which provides 25% more shield strength than Large Standard for only 20% more cost, dropping to 25% more shields for 13% more cost.
I do use the threshold of cost vs gain, but it has to be cost squared to compensate for the firepower loss. And yes, we may be in longer term conflict with the Klingons. But that makes it more important to do well now, because whatever losses we take now in the war will be magnified forward. If we take a serious beating, it will make the federation worse off in the future, same if the Klingons make gains.
 
My primary concern right now is cost. We were supposed to keep this thing cheap, we picked several of the most expensive options, and a few of the mid price options. A cut has to come somewhere, and standard shielding isn't a huge drop in capability for me.
Thats inaccurate.
The exact phrasing was, and I quote:
Design Brief said:
You put in your order for Starfleet Tactical, who will work on finalising their designs over the next months and begin spooling up new production lines for the Mark II phaser. This is not a moment too soon, because you soon have a new project. With the increasing obsolescence of the Sagarmatha there is a dire need for a heavier line combatant capable of flying the flag in an ever-expanding Federation. Increasing tensions and incidents with the Klingons are only the start, with the Tholians becoming increasingly militaristic and provocative when it comes to ships near their claimed space.

Enter the Heavy Cruiser Project. This is a cooperative project with San Francisco, with your teams liaising with each other to increase pace and reduce delivery time. Starfleet has issued a challenging brief for Project Constitution, a heavyweight cruiser capable of going toe-to-toe with the threats of the modern era. The Klingon D6 has long been an awkward measuring stick to match ships like the Newton or Kea against, and with signs of increased resource flows to the Klingon interior there are concerns that there has either been a major uptick in production of an already tactically problematic design or even a new and more dangerous vessel.

The metrics are simple: it needs to take a punch and hit back, the cheaper the better.
While Starfleet will never say no to engineering and scientific capability, what it really needs is something to dissuade the eruption of open hostility with neighbouring powers. Increased spending needs to be tactically justifiable, and the more ships the fleetyards can pump out of the resulting heavy cruiser design the better. For that reason the expectation is the ship should mass around two hundred thousand tons, which is what your cost and efficiency metrics are assuming.
This was supposed to deter not just the Klingons, but the Tholians.
The primary requirement was tactical capability and mass-produceability, not cost.

Like Ive said previously, this is supposed to match or outmatch peer capital ships.
It was never going to be cheap.
 
Standard shields do not have the oomph they need for this ship. Say it gets 2 refits, being able to go Standard large> covariant > type 2 is a major life extension and saves time and money on ships. Standard covariants are effectively forcing it to stay with standard large shields for longer.
 
Mechanis, something I think you are failing to consider. We also have a much larger Federation to defend. Iirc, we are bigger than we were in canon, and even WITH the Pharos network and the Archers we're struggling to digest our gains.

I think more ships to cover more ground is the way to go.
 
Another question we should start considering is, once the neo-Connie gets up and ready, what gaps does our fleet have? We've got an amazing science ship, a great logistics support and repair ship, several older utility and survey vessels, and a new battlecruiser. What next?
 
[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75

In the second tranche cheaper then heavy.
 
Another question we should start considering is, once the neo-Connie gets up and ready, what gaps does our fleet have? We've got an amazing science ship, a great logistics support and repair ship, several older utility and survey vessels, and a new battlecruiser. What next?
Correction, we're building a heavy cruiser right now, not a battlecruiser.
The obvious next thing is either a new component(possibly new nacelles, or new shields) and then a new battleship heavy explorer.
 
Another question we should start considering is, once the neo-Connie gets up and ready, what gaps does our fleet have? We've got an amazing science ship, a great logistics support and repair ship, several older utility and survey vessels, and a new battlecruiser. What next?
I think that's going to depend a lot on what modules we put on this one. I'm hoping for fabrication Bay extended range and cargo with one lab ideally giving improved sensors of some kind but we could really go any way. Medical would be nice
 
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