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Starfleet Design Bureau

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NSMS said:
It's supposed to be a poweful warship, but we do want to keep the cost down when the benefit doesn't justify it:
They want a ship that can take hits, hit back hard, and be relatively spammable. Going for the most expensive shield option definitely hurts the 'relatively spammable' part of the objective, as it cuts the first trache's size by nearly 20 %.

On an entirely separate issue, if we get a bad tech roll we lose durability for the first batch of ships. This doesn't seem like the best time to be taking that particular risk.
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Very seldom will a military tell you to damn the cost for a production vessel.

The emphasis appeared to be on a ship thats mass-producible.
Thats not quite the same thing as a ship thats cheap; the priorities are different.
Especially in the buildup to a war, when the military budget increases.


VOTE
[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]
[X] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 103.25]
 
[X] Type-1 Standard [27 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 84.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 78.75]
[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]
 
[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]

This is the ship we'll probably have to fight the war with. Picking standard covariant costs more, and does not make the ship have any better defenses. Which means that we would have less of them in the early war. Also, there are no potential refit options for standard covariant ships in any reasonable time frame.

The type 1 heavy is both cheaper than standard covariant and leave the option available to a refit to heavy covariant in case of a second war some 20 or 30 years after the coming one. It seems unlikely that we'd be able to design and build a 2nd warship in time for this war, so even if we advance covariant shields now, we'd get no advantage in the coming war, and we could probably not have the replacement for covariant shields ready to refit to ships in a theoretical 2nd war.
 
Either is good for me. Type 1 heavy may also allow for second or third trance to go for heavy covariant.

[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]
[X] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 103.25]
 
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[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]

[X] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 103.25]
 
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[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]

[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]
 
[X] Type-1 Standard [27 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 84.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 78.75]

Perfect is the enemy of the good and this will get the job done and keep costs down, if you want to actually have hulls out in Federation space when the war comes this is the best option. Extra gold plated shields are the opposite of what is required here since that means less ships trying to the same job.
 
[x] Type-1 Standard [27 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 84.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 78.75]
[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]
 
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[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]
[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]
 
[x] Type-1 Standard [27 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 84.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 78.75]
[x] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]
 
[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]

This is the price I'm willing to pay with the ability to refit to be much heavier in the future.
 
[] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 103.25]

Accept no substitutes buy big shields today and feel save!

Edit, moved to approval vote :(
 
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Skippy said:
The job this is designed to do is kill D7 cruisers, something we know the canonical Constitution was definitely able to do, and this ship already exceeds it in both manoeuvrability and firepower. A significant cost increase which is not necessary for doing that job does not provide good value for money. Simply extolling the virtues of making a ship shinier does not change this.
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We can already absorb material losses. Standard Covariant is more than sufficient, so long as we get to put additional hulls out in time. Even just one more ship to plug into Starfleets logistical network to benefit from the Vulture-Classes in system is an advantage the Klingons won't be able to bounce back from

Edit: Just so I'm clear I'm in agreement with your point
 
[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]
[X] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 103.25]
 
[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]
[X] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 103.25]

Beeg shield
 
uju32 said:
Correction, we're building a heavy cruiser right now, not a battlecruiser.
The obvious next thing is either a new component(possibly new nacelles, or new shields) and then a new battleship heavy explorer.
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no, the ship we have designed is 1000% a Battlecruiser in design. calling it a Heavy Cruiser is not really accurate.

As mentioned, my first choice is absolutely:
[X] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) [Second Tranche: 73.25 ->103.25]

but if I have to settle for a compromise for the people who are suddenly leery about cost I will take
[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]
 
[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]

Second best defense, a significantly cheaper price point than the best option, and slightly cheaper with no risk of failure compared to the equivalent option.
 
To explain with an example why I keep talking about squares, have an example. Let's say that ships have a certain dps X, and a durability Y. So one ship will kill another in Y/X time.

Now let's we have two ships A and B. A has 1 dps, and 10 hp. B has 1 dps and 20 hp. How much better is B than A? Well it has twice the durability, so we can say twice. If they fight, B will survive with half its hp remaining. How much better do we make A if we make it half the price? Two A will have 2 dps, and 20 hp. So they will easily beat one B! Actually they will beat B by exactly the same margin, and will have half their collective hp left. They are twice as good as B, which was twice as good as A before the price cut. So halving the price made A four times, that is two squared times as good.
 
[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]
[X] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 103.25]
Fine with either of these. Personally hoping for heavy, but I can be convinced into standard for cost reasons. That said, this ship's built for extended hit and run engagements, and more shields means more passes before they need to try to disengage, or more viable passes against large groupings of enemy vessels. I see a synergy there. Time will tell.
Edit: Snipped standard covariant vote, let's not half-ass things here.
 
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I know I've posted a lot, but something to consider... Our order of priorities should be something like this.

1-Deter the Klingons from attacking us
2-Have enough military force to win the war
3-Have enough military force to win battles

We need a lot of these things, people saying damn the budget are forgetting someone has to actually build all this specialized military-grade hardware. That's the limiting factor, and that's what cost is an abstraction of. The Federation may well be bigger than canon, and we'll need numbers. If we can scare the Klingons off a bit or make them think we're too tough to be worth it, we can get more tranches of ships out, or do another design before the war kicks off. A delay would serve us well, I think.

Edit: The High Council thinks we're easy prey, and we are. We're stretched thinner, our fleet is strategically slow because of our warp performance buffs, and our phasers and shields are weaker than they would otherwise be. But, they're quickly going to start hearing reports of Klingon BoPs etc being run down by a new Starfleet heavy cruiser that can fire spreads of 5 torpedoes and has crazy-level agility and can match or outrun their best warp ships. That alone should make them more hesitant and maybe, just maybe, send their raiders somewhere else. When D6s, powerful and expensive war cruisers, also meet the same fate, that might be enough to buy us the time we need. With 2 tranches of these ships, and our next design maybe pushing further for new shield and torpedo technology, we'll be in a stronger position.
 
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uju32 said:
Very seldom will a military tell you to damn the cost for a production vessel.

The emphasis appeared to be on a ship thats mass-producible.
Thats not quite the same thing as a ship thats cheap; the priorities are different.
Especially in the buildup to a war, when the military budget increases.
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My understanding is that the cost reflects how difficult the needed components are to make, and more importantly how available the industrial capacity to make these kinds of components is. Which means a higher price tag will in fact result in fewer ships, because the Federation simply doesn't have enough high-tech factories for advanced phasers/engines/shielding systems to produce any more. The technology becoming cheaper as it matures is, at least in part, those factories being built / older factories being retooled to make the new technologies.

Unfortunately this means that at least in the short to medium term, production simply can't be massively increased beyond what you have capacity for, no matter how much money you throw at the problem. The money will build up more capacity in the long term, but that doesn't help you right now.
 
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Mechanis said:
This idea of "the canon Federation did fine" is extremely deceptive, because the canon Federation had at this time already started with upgrading its existing fleet to Warp 8 engines, possessed superior power phasers that allowed them to be closer to primary weapons rather than secondary weapons, and likely had a more tactically capable standing fleet, as we have frequently treated tactical capabilities as a dump stat for everything that's not an Explorer.
So no, I do not at all believe that just because it was adequate in canon it will be adequate herein.
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None of that actually answers if the D7 wouldn't already be fairly beatable with this design. Which so far one can reasonably assess from available data, it would be.

Yes one has to guess a bit on the exact combat ability, but unless this Klingon D7 is massively more powerful then the Canon one, it will find this design a huge challenge. Thus it's not exactly clear what you're gaining by gold plating survivability even further. Military need more then just the most powerful ship possible after all, they also need sufficient numbers to help in as many places as possible.
TeaMug said:
A lot of folks are focusing on the "the cheaper the better" part. I'm of the opinion that we kinda meet that criteria by default.
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That's a really easy side step answer to make. But no military in history has typically agreed with it. Lots of military have been willing to make at times some pretty surprising money saving moves to just get more things.

In that sense this really wasn't the cheapest design anymore. But at this point it still gained some heft tactical in return for it, possibly sufficient to make up for the extra costs.

But I've yet to hear how this slight survivability increase is worth this much more cost. And why we shouldn't instead make a few more ships to protect a few more worlds with.
 
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