Starfleet Design Bureau

[Driven by Apathy]

There is an option on the table that could still get very close to that budget....

Which I am going to vote for, even if standard Type-1 shields seem really unpopular.

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I can see your point, actually. If we want to optimize for cost, Standard Type-1 is probably the optimal choice.

The result would have weaker shielding than the Canon Connie, but it would also be tactically superior to it in all other respects, while being less than 1% more expensive. As a warfighting ship, overall I'd say it would be a solid improvement over the canon variant.

 

[darkstarling]

	Medium Shields	Standard Shields	Strong Shields
Budget	Type 1 Standard
Normal	Covariant Light	Type 1 Heavy
Expensive		Covariant Standard
Luxury			Covariant Heavy

 

[CanYouMeme]

The job this is designed to do is kill D7 cruisers, something we know the canonical Constitution was definitely able to do, and this ship already exceeds it in both manoeuvrability and firepower. A significant cost increase which is not necessary for doing that job does not provide good value for money. Simply extolling the virtues of making a ship shinier does not change this.

Click to shrink...

While I wouldn't mind a standard covariant - good balance of power and cost - I do want to point out something that is missing from this discussion a little bit;

How much damage will the ship take in the process?

Because the difference between winning an engagement with moderate damage and winning the engagement with light damage is a very significant one from a war perspective, even if in any given instance it makes no overall difference.

[ ] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]
[ ] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) [Second Tranche: 73.25 ->103.25]

 

[QuarkBeast]

So i was polite and waited for the previous moratorium to end but ive only just gotten back to my computer now and the votes over... hmm.

[X] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 103.25]

 

[Mechanis]

I don't think getting them now is better, the large standards are just as effective and cheaper compared to standard covariants while being easily upgraded to large covariants.

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Again: future capability is worthless as deterrent or actual warfighting ability Right Now.
The thought "We can do it later" and "Eh, we'll just upgrade it At Some Point" and "We don't need this right this second, let's save some money" is why we have reached a point where the Klingons are willing to go to war with us now, three decades early, and why we are desperately smashing out a beatstick to hold them off, paying out the nose for our delaying.

If you believe having a couple extra ships when the war kicks off will be more decisive than having ships that are significantly harder to kill, by all means vote for either Standard Covariant Shields or Large Basic Shields. but please don't pretend that the ability to maybe upgrade the survivors with better technology someday is going to help us with the current war in any way, shape or form.

 

[Ramble]

I wonder if we can get starfleet tactical's opinion of standard type-1 vs heavy type-1 vs standard covariant

As it is, we have the components for Type-1 Heavy in production right now, even if standard covariant means we can push our tech along.

 

[uju32]

True... But we could have pinched pennies where relevant, why people went for the type 3s when 3 type 2s did the same thing for a fraction the cost I am still baffles over (prototyping can come after the war)

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I dont agree.

Like I said, there are strategic concerns for the entire service with regards to pushing technological advancement; its an investment in the service as a whole, not just this ship class.
And this Federation is supposed to be significantly wealthier than its canon counterpart at this point in time.

If they cannot spend more money on military ships on the eve of a major war, then where is the money for?

We're building a capship killer blind, without much IC knowledge of the pacing threat's capabilities
We are obliged to bring our A-game.
Only when you are sure your ship can achieve the goal do you start worrying about cost-efficincies.


EDIT
Also, those smaller Type-3s likely translate to additional space for modules.
For things like antimatter pods.

 

[MS-21H 'Hawke']

[ ] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]

This is a good compromise in my mind. We still work out the new technology, and the cost difference isn't horrible and actually gets really good past the first tranch.

 

[Tank man]

I wonder if we can get starfleet tactical's opinion of standard type-1 vs heavy type-1 vs standard covariant

Click to shrink...

@Sayle related to the above, do we know what Starfleet Tactical things regarding these different choices?

 

[Lohjak]

Again: future capability is worthless as deterrent or actual warfighting ability Right Now.
The thought "We can do it later" and "Eh, we'll just upgrade it At Some Point" and "We don't need this right this second, let's save some money" is why we have reached a point where the Klingons are willing to go to war with us now, three decades early, and why we are desperately smashing out a beatstick to hold them off, paying out the nose for our delaying.

If you believe having a couple extra ships when the war kicks off will be more decisive than having ships that are significantly harder to kill, by all means vote for either Standard Covariant Shields or Large Basic Shields. but please don't pretend that the ability to maybe upgrade the survivors with better technology someday is going to help us with the current war in any way, shape or form.

Click to shrink...

That's because the decision is not realistically between standard or heavy covariant. Heavy covariant simply costs far too much and is very unlikely to win.

I think that odds are good that we will eventually go with standard covariants, which are fine, but limit the future refit capacity of the ship. For the same price, we could get the same shield strength with the possibility of upgrading the shields down the line, at the cost of not advancing covariant shields.

 

[Alectai]

I mean, us going with the Warp-8 Forward Compatible option means that this thing's probably going to be in active service for ages with refits, because we crossed the rubicon already. If it's forward compatible, the A-Refit might just be able to mount Type-2 Deflectors instead of Covariants, and it's still being improved.

Stick with the Standards I think, it doesn't break the bank, gets the same performance as Large Type-1, and advances the tech. Best balance of tech advancement and performance vs cost.

 

[Lohjak]

I mean, us going with the Warp-8 Forward Compatible option means that this thing's probably going to be in active service for ages with refits, because we crossed the rubicon already. If it's forward compatible, the A-Refit might just be able to mount Type-2 Deflectors instead of Covariants, and it's still being improved.

Click to shrink...

Sure, but will we get those before the war after this one? We'll definitely be able to get heavy covariants, but unless we become unassailable it seems unlikely that we'll unlock type-2 shields in time.

 

[DeltaV11.2]

ONE
Even in canon, there were 2x Federation-Klingon wars within 10 years of each other.
One started in 2257, the other in 2267.
And the timeline has changed.

Assuming that things are going to be all smooth sailing is asking to get got.

TWO
The numbers do not make sense for not going Covariant.
Quick math

TRANCHE 1
The cost delta between a ship with Type-1 Heavy Standards(97.25) and Type-1 Standard Covariant(104.75) is 7.5 points
Thats 7.7% increase.
Same shield strength.

The cost delta between a ship with Type-1 Heavy Standard(97.25) and Type-1 Heavy Covariant(116.75) is 19.5
Thats roughly 20% cost increase.
And +8 Shields


TRANCHE 2
The cost delta between a ship with Type-1 Heavy Standards(91.25) and Type-1 Standard Covariant(93.75) is 2.5 points
Thats a 2.7% cost increase.

The cost delta between a ship with Type-1 Heavy Standard(91.25) and Type-1 Heavy Covariant(103.25) is 19.5
Thats roughly 13% cost increase
And +8 Shields


=======
I can see an argument for going with Standard Covariant over Heavy Covariant.
I cannot see a financial case for taking the Type-1 Heavy.

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The 2257 war is not canon to the quest, and AFAIK this applies to the whole of Discovery.

And you are ignoring what I have already repeatedly pointed out, that across the fleet the relative increase to shield power must be greater than the relative cost increase for it to even out. Because increasing cost per ship means we get fewer ships and less total weapons output. As well as just strategically covering less space.

Since the canon Connie went heavy standard, their actual shield power was about 40ish, since they went with the +10% shield power option in their warp core instead of the +20% impulse like we did. That means to match canon shield strength we need to take heavy covariant.

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Not true, because the shield power increase only applied to the next gen shield. They had increased power on covariant Shields but didn't take them.

 

[Alectai]

Sure, but will we get those before the war after this one? We'll definitely be able to get heavy covariants, but unless we become unassailable it seems unlikely that we'll unlock type-2 shields in time.

Click to shrink...

Maybe!

But I don't want to hyperfocus on "Large shields are the only ones that matter on our Very High Mobility blorbo". 36 Shields were fine for the canon Connie, and it was a far weaker ship in a scrap than this one.

 

[StriderInCosmos]

[ ] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]
[ ] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]

This is about the place I feel most comfortable voting. I'll hope that Covariant shields win the day, but we're still going to need the tactical flexibility of good, strong shields for a ship that's meant to be a main-line combatant, horse archer approach or no.

 

[Golgotha]

I actually disagree with the idea we need to push tech right now.
Covariant becomes standard on our next ship regardless of what we vote right now. That's the only one with any possibility of influencing this war. While it would be nice to have slightly better post war technology, we really really really need to win this war without heavy losses.
To do that, we pick the best balance of strong and economical.
That's the heavy standard. Multiple people have guesstimated the maths and it's likely at least an entire extra ship produced before the war with the same fighting capability.

 

[luckless21]

future capability is worthless as deterrent or actual warfighting ability Right Now

Click to shrink...

That cuts towards covailents too you know? Why spend more money on the same thing but fancier with less refitability?

 

[Lohjak]

Maybe!

But I don't want to hyperfocus on "Large shields are the only ones that matter on our Very High Mobility blorbo". 36 Shields were fine for the canon Connie, and it was a far weaker ship in a scrap than this one.

Click to shrink...

We're almost certainly getting 36 shields either way. The choice is effectively between covariants now or refit later.

 

[inirlan]

It's not more for less. Even now Covarient is paying more for the same. And in the future this is the same for the same, it's just a relatively lightly shielded well armored ship.

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The light covariant has absolute dogshit performance for the cost. It's not worth it.

if you want a sub-par shield, at least take the option that makes the vessel cheap.

If you want a covariant to advance tech take at least a standard.

 

[grimely]

Standard covariant seem kind of useless, yeah. They're both more expensive than heavy standard, and don't actually improve anything vs doing nothing at this point due to how long we waited to take them. If they took up space I could see an argument to take them on those grounds, but they don't, so it's only cost we're really caring about. Heavy standard or heavy covariant seem to be the only real choices.

 

[Iridium Flare]

TRANCHE 1
The cost delta between a ship with Type-1 Heavy Standard(97.25) and Type-1 Heavy Covariant(116.75) is 19.5
Thats roughly 20% cost increase.
And +8 Shields
TRANCHE 2
The cost delta between a ship with Type-1 Heavy Standard(91.25) and Type-1 Heavy Covariant(103.25) is 19.5
Thats roughly 13% cost increase
And +8 Shields

Click to shrink...

Fun fact, 8 is 22% of 36, so it's already more value for the resources invested into it, and will only become moreso in the future. The question we have to ask is whether we want 20% more durability per ship or (roughly) 10% more ships, period.

 

[Candesce]

While not directly relevant here, I would assume that if we went for Cov here than they would get that status one(ish) design sooner, and at that point they'd be better than T1 on a pure price to performance (I think).

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If our next design can take Covariant Shielding as a prototype, we could still get some shield tech acceleration. If.

Given the prototype->standard switch will happen before our next design completes, even if we're sure we're designing a ship next I suspect we wouldn't get shields as a prototype option.

[ ] Type-1 Standard [27 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 84.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 78.75]
[ ] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]

The price difference between Large T1 and Standard Covariant is sufficiently small (especially for Tranche 2+) that I'm quite willing to pay it for tech acceleration. I don't care about preserving a refit option for slightly better shielding in the future; if anything, I'd expect refits to be towards being less military-oriented after this upcoming war, especially if we don't insist on building more pure noncombatants.

 

[Skippy]

... except that the D7 was always presented as a peer combatant and deadly threat to the Enterprise. I don't want a peer combatant. I want to overmatch the D7, So that when it comes to smash our stuff, it will be outgunned, outmaneuvered, and incapable of inflicting critical damage or even running away. I don't want to fight fair, I want to flat out murder every Klingon Battlecruiser that dares set a toe over the border, with the only way they can win being getting lucky.

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Honestly we have very little to go on in terms of how the Constitution stacks up to the D7 in TOS. We know the Connie was built to to fight the D7 and can infer Starfleet apparently thought it was up to snuff. We see the Connie fight a D7 twice (debatably in Errand of Mercy, but it's shown as a D7 in the remaster), winning both times, despite the Klingons getting the first shot in both engagements. If I had to judge I'd say it seems like the Enterprise is somewhat superior overall, although not massively so.

This video has a summary if you're interested.

More broadly... this does not change the overall point about needing to be able able to make cost/benefit judgements, but it feels like this discussion is getting very repetitive so I'm going to leave it here.

Same deal, we need strong spaceframes today. I'm willing to invest in so far as advancing our Shield Tech, because that's useful, but Large Type-1 doesn't really pay out until 20-30 years down the line, and by that point, the purpose we built these for will be finished.

Click to shrink...

But even until that time, it provides us basically the same shield strength as a Standard Covariant, and at lower cost. If you're planning to go with Light Covariant then I understand your reticence here, but otherwise it seems like a good deal? Saves money and gives the design room to grow.

Also I wouldn't underrate the importance of the Constitution in the TMP era - even after this war, we are still going to be staring down the Klingons over the neutral zone, and having one of our major combatants continue to grow stronger over time is a good idea IMO. Thinking of this ship as a short-term investment is probably not the best idea; we're looking at a longish service life and a long cold war with the Klingons after the Four Year war finishes.

 

[Endorfinator]

But remember it's Prototype->Standard->Mature tech. So there is still merit in pushing Type 1 Covariant Shield technology.

 

[Alectai]

But remember it's Prototype->Standard->Mature tech. So there is still merit in pushing Type 1 Covariant Shield technology.

Click to shrink...

Precisely, it speeds up the time for it to Mature and unlocks the ticker for the next tier, if we wait until the next design, it just sits at Standard until we push the trigger and doesn't get the advantage of shittons of field data that we get from using it in a heavily produced vessel.