Starfleet Design Bureau

I'm not talking about some + on a stat sheet, I mean for actual usage.
Well, the actual usage described for the workshop is stuff like "day-to-day running of the starship," and "focus on construction or maintenance tasks," so it kinda feels like double-dipping?
It would be very strange if you couldn't fabricate something for a colony or freighter in the workshop and then beam it over or put it in a shuttle pod and fly it over.
Small or minor things, sure maybe, but looking at what I said up above, I don't quite think this is going to be anywhere close to the Endeavour's industrial replicator or Century's fabricators in its ability to manufacture something important for a ship or colony. It seems like it'll be more focused on the ship itself.
The workshop won't directly add to the science score, no, but that doesn't mean the two can't synergize.
I just feel this is treading too close to the previous arguments about how we could just convert cargo bays into science labs.
 
[X] 0: Install the secondary computer core. (Industry 45 -> 46)
[X] 1: Install a second set of science labs. (Science +2)

[X] 0: Install the secondary computer core. (Industry 45 -> 46)
[X] 1: Install a second set of science labs. (Science +2)

Confession time: I did not actually mind so much whether we went for the labs or workshop, but really wanted the computer core given it's a two percent cost increase for probably ten times that in terms of the percentage increase to our Science score. Making quite a strongly worded post about the labs versus workshop may have been a bit of an attempt on my part to ensure the argument was over that and not the computer core.
Frankly i think that was insecure of you. After 8 phasers won, one more production is basically a rounding error. We're dedicated to make this the best Earth can offer, and a secondary cpu is part of that.
 
To be fair, the arguments for both the extra labs and the workshop are valid and very convincing. After a while, though, you just have to pick a side.
 
Given these ships are more necessary for supporting our trade networks and colonies then they are for exploration I think having the workshop capability is more important than the bonus to science.

I'm sorry, what?

Like, I think there's a valid argument for going for the workshop here. A long-range exploration vessel having more ability to perform repairs and come up with jury-rigged solutions on the fly is obviously helpful. It might mean that our Enterprise does not have to spend a year half-crippled by battle damage like the canonical one did. But the idea that these ships are more for supporting our (frankly pretty pitiful at this point) trade networks and colonies than for exploration is a bit bizarre to me, where are you getting this from?

This ship is an explorer, meant to be an ambassador for Earth in contacting new species, and getting the established Alpha Quadrant powers to take us more seriously, and make scientific discoveries. Both for the pure joy of discovery, and to help us close the still-significant technological gap with those powers. This is what the canonical Enterprise did. Unlike TNG or TOS where it's a fairly common plot device, there are relatively few episodes where the NX-Enterprise went to deliver things to colonies, because Earth has very few colonies at this point and Enterprise was travelling far beyond them.

There is absolutely no reason for us to be building this ship this expensive and powerful if it were just for supporting our trade networks and colonies. We could build a deluxe version of the Zheng He class to do that job, and save twenty Industry per hull.

(After the Earth-Romulan war, there is a very good argument that we should do this, but we aren't quite there yet.)
 
The quest runs, as far as I understand from playing it, is based on deliberate affirmations as otherwise we'd just have ten designs of each class and never have to make a choice.

Essentially the case. Unless decisions make meaningful course shifts, there's no point having them.

A question to ask @Sayle, how the Engineering and Science scores are calculated.

Engineering gets buffed from...well, engineering stuff that lets them do things other than be a ship. Cargo bays, shuttle bays, that sort of thing. Get off the ship and move things from place to place, build outposts, conduct repairs on other ships, etc. If a research outpost starts wailing about how its atmospheric processor is failing and they're all going to die of Jovian Lung, all a Stingray captain can say is "that's rough buddy".

Science is based on being able to do science stuff. Having a computer gives you 1 because you have sensors, but for more you gotta invest in science stuff.

You know what this ship really needs filters in the vents and the bridge and armory having their own heavily filtered oxygen supply like the decontamination bay so episode 19 acquisition doesn't happen

But then how would you instantly distribute an aerosol into every square inch of breathable atmosphere on command?
 
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[X] 0: Install the secondary computer core. (Industry 45 -> 46)
[X] 1: Install a second set of science labs. (Science +2)
 
and to help us close the still-significant technological gap with those powers.
This is a very salient point in favor of science. We will run into species with far superior technologically to Earth's (or Vulcan's), and we will want to learn how they do the things they do and if possible how to do those things ourselves. The ship itself will likely not be able to jury-rig solutions far beyond our tech base even with all the fabrication facilities we can possibly cram into it, but we can give scientists and engineers on Earth (i.e., us!) data that they can learn from.
 
That... can't be right. Wasn't the Endeavour a maxed-out Science Ship?

... it was only an A??

S is for exceptional, cutting edge, amazing capability. You welched out on another set of science labs and an extra computer core. So you basically took 3/5 science options. One of which was a prototype and one was a science-based hull, which is why I counted the prototype/hull as 3 instead of 2.
 
[X] 0: Install the secondary computer core. (Industry 45 -> 46)
[X] 1: Install a small onboard workshop. (Engineering +2)

I have to say, at this stage our ships have little in the way of a support network and move fairly slowly. Having the means to make sure they come home, or a way to tinker to implement a Crazy Plan, seems like the safe bet to make sure valuable personnel and hulls return home.
 
Oh, hell. Fine, full science it is. Just so we can get at least one S-grade.
[X] 0: Install the secondary computer core. (Industry 45 -> 46)
[X] 1: Install a second set of science labs. (Science +2)
 
I'm sorry, what?

Like, I think there's a valid argument for going for the workshop here. A long-range exploration vessel having more ability to perform repairs and come up with jury-rigged solutions on the fly is obviously helpful. It might mean that our Enterprise does not have to spend a year half-crippled by battle damage like the canonical one did. But the idea that these ships are more for supporting our (frankly pretty pitiful at this point) trade networks and colonies than for exploration is a bit bizarre to me, where are you getting this from?

This ship is an explorer, meant to be an ambassador for Earth in contacting new species, and getting the established Alpha Quadrant powers to take us more seriously, and make scientific discoveries. Both for the pure joy of discovery, and to help us close the still-significant technological gap with those powers. This is what the canonical Enterprise did. Unlike TNG or TOS where it's a fairly common plot device, there are relatively few episodes where the NX-Enterprise went to deliver things to colonies, because Earth has very few colonies at this point and Enterprise was travelling far beyond them.

There is absolutely no reason for us to be building this ship this expensive and powerful if it were just for supporting our trade networks and colonies. We could build a deluxe version of the Zheng He class to do that job, and save twenty Industry per hull.

(After the Earth-Romulan war, there is a very good argument that we should do this, but we aren't quite there yet.)
Supporting also means defending and there are hostiles out there. That's why the ship needs to be powerful and multi-role, it's the only thing that we have that's fast enough and large enough to respond to every kind of emergency.

We also can't send them all out to explore the universe, we need to keep several close enough to earth and our other interests to defend them.

Exploration will have to be handled by a small proportion of the class so that the others can handle the vital and eternal duties of any navy. That is until we can build something either Dedicated to the cruiser role, or something dedicated to the exploration role.
 
We also can't send them all out to explore the universe, we need to keep several close enough to earth and our other interests to defend them.
This is explicitly what Stingrays are for. NXs might relieve planetary defense forces in a pinch, but keeping them back in that role is a waste of their capabilities.
 
We also can't send them all out to explore the universe, we need to keep several close enough to earth and our other interests to defend them.
We are not going to build giant expensive exploration ships and then not send them out exploring. That would be a squandering of resources. If we want to defend Earth that badly, Starfleet can ask us to design a battleship.
or something dedicated to the exploration role.
The NX. The NX is dedicated to the exploration role. It's an exploration ship. It's what we've built it for.
 
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S is for exceptional, cutting edge, amazing capability. You welched out on another set of science labs and an extra computer core. So you basically took 3/5 science options. One of which was a prototype and one was a science-based hull, which is why I counted the prototype/hull as 3 instead of 2.

So, yes, we need to pick science options to make ships that are about investigating the unknown and not just about shooting things.

We also can't send them all out to explore the universe, we need to keep several close enough to earth and our other interests to defend them.

That's not how the quest works (so far). We're not worried about fleet deployments, where to place colonies, etc.

We're building the character of Starfleet, its ethos, one component and one ship at a time. If you build gunboats to explore, they will explore worse than the one with more focus on investigating the unknown.

That does not mean do not put guns on ships, I'm a pleb and love the Galaxy too much and that was a pocket battleship. However, they spent just as much on everything else in Galaxy class as well to make it an (overpriced monstrosity) a diplomatic explorer ship first and foremost.
 
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[X] 0: Install the secondary computer core. (Industry 45 -> 46)
[X] 1: Install a second set of science labs. (Science +2)
 
Supporting also means defending and there are hostiles out there. That's why the ship needs to be powerful and multi-role, it's the only thing that we have that's fast enough and large enough to respond to every kind of emergency.

We also can't send them all out to explore the universe, we need to keep several close enough to earth and our other interests to defend them.

Exploration will have to be handled by a small proportion of the class so that the others can handle the vital and eternal duties of any navy. That is until we can build something either Dedicated to the cruiser role, or something dedicated to the exploration role.

So, I would suggest that this is simply incorrect: this ship is dedicated to the cruiser and exploration role. That is very much the ship we are building now. Like, it's absolutely true that our explorers have to be multi-role vessels to an extent and can generally bolster our presence in space. But the central design objective of these ships is very much to be sent beyond the borders of our territory.

Like, I don't want to go in circles, so maybe it would be best to check in case I'm wrong?

@Sayle, would it best characterise the ship we're designing now to call it an exploration cruiser, or a multi-role support ship for our colonies and trade lanes?
 
NX would be an exploration ship, but remembering the events in the series (in all of the series basically), it's also an adventure ship. Which kinda invites having full set of "fighter, cleric, mage and thief" capabilities. And the workshop is a cleric/thief in the party.
 
@Sayle, would it best characterise the ship we're designing now to call it an exploration cruiser, or a multi-role support ship for our colonies and trade lanes?
I suspect the answer is going to be something along the lines of "the design brief asks for X, Y, and Z, but the role is up to the players to decide."
 
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