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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Feim said:
the implication of, well damn near everything around runes, suggests that the only hard requirement is being able to use magic. which is, in layman terms, the use of your soul to manipulate non-material shit.
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Not quite.
For example: the implication that no known non dwarf has ever done runecraft despite other races have hundreds of years of friendly relations to learn something, and being far better at traditional magic than dwarves are, suggests its a little harder than just doing magic.

The implication that most Chaos dwarf sorcerers are gradually turned to stone by wielding magic while Runesmiths are not suggests that runesmithing has reasonable differences to dwarves doing other traditional magic.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Not quite.
For example: the implication that no known non dwarf has ever done runecraft despite other races have hundreds of years of friendly relations to learn something, and being far better at traditional magic than dwarves are, suggests its a little harder than just doing magic.

The implication that most Chaos dwarf sorcerers are gradually turned to stone by wielding magic while Runesmiths are not suggests that runesmithing has reasonable differences to dwarves doing other traditional magic.
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Perhaps Runecraft utilizes the uniqueness of Dwarven souls, which normally prohibits the active use of magic, and the reason Chaos Dwarves turn to stone is because they force themselves to use sorcery anyway? Maybe everyone else has a square hole, which they can put the square block of magic into, but Dwarves have round holes and thus need a round thing. Chaos Dwarves just break the hole in that metaphor.
 
It seems to me that dwarves were designed with the ability to create runes. This is how the army of the ancients would receive runic weapons from the dwarves. Powered by halflings. Elves as officers and magicians. Ogres are ordinary fighters. And valikans as siege units.
 
Oleg Shilov said:
It seems to me that dwarves were designed with the ability to create runes. This is how the army of the ancients would receive runic weapons from the dwarves. Powered by halflings. Elves as officers and magicians. Ogres are ordinary fighters. And valikans as siege units.
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But then why did Thungni have to discover them? Why do only some of his descendants have the potential to do it?
 
Oleg Shilov said:
The project was not completed due to the influence of chaos. Not all Dwarves had to be runemasters. Someone has to dig for minerals. Cost. Forging. In this case, the runemasters would only be engaged in the application of runes in factories.
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But that still doesn't explain why only Thungni's descendants have the potential (and only some of them at that), if it was an interrupted project you'd think there would be at least some non-descendant Runesmiths. pure statistics means that it should have happened if it was possible. Perhaps humans could forget a few, but these are dwarves, there's no way they wouldn't take note of it.
 
theretrodragon said:
But then why did Thungni have to discover them? Why do only some of his descendants have the potential to do it?
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We're told that the Old Ones taught dwarves on Albion how to use runes, and those dwarves were sent back to the rest of their species to disseminate the knowledge.

It's quite possible that Ancestor Gods were the Old Ones' pupils, and were sworn to secrecy about where and from whom they learned their knowledge, or possibly even that they were taught at all, depending on the Old Ones' motive.

We know that Thungni is famously uncommunicative with his descendants and let them largelly interpret his actions as they chose. He could well have just not contradicted them when they diecided he discovered the runes rather than as taught them if we was sworn to silence on the subject.

If that's the case, Thungni may be the only one of the Ancestor Gods who the Old Ones engineered in runecrafting as a germline rather than somatic trait. There may have been other dwarven pupils or indeed other dwarven communities those dwarves returned to that died during the Coming of Chaos.

Indeed, it's quite possible, if unlikely, that there are to this day dwarven runesmiths on Albion who aren't descended from Thungni.

theretrodragon said:
But that still doesn't explain why only Thungni's descendants have the potential (and only some of them at that), if it was an interrupted project you'd think there would be at least some non-descendant Runesmiths. pure statistics means that it should have happened if it was possible. Perhaps humans could forget a few, but these are dwarves, there's no way they wouldn't take note of it.
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See my suggestion above. It may have been more expensive to do germline modification to add the runesmithing talent than somatic, so that it was restricted to a limited subset of pupils.

Or it could be that only Thungni amongst the ANcestor Gods was so modified and taught by the Old Ones but after that set of pupils (who were taught different lessons) ascended to be manifest Gods (however that happened) the rest of them could mimic his Gift with their divine powers
 
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soulcake said:
Rune of Thungni:
(All: Items and Runes inscribed on the same item as this Rune have increased durability and energy efficiency. (Windsight: Nearby Winds of Magic are ordered and directed into the Rune and any Runes on the item it is inscribed on, effects and magic released by other Runes are modulated better, smoothing and reducing wasted power.))
(Talismanic: Lowers the duration and potency of curses and magic targeting the wearer. (Windsight: Emphasizes the Rune's Wind ordering effect; unlike on Banners, the Rune directs this to just the wearer.))
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soulcake said:
Thungni Variant
Rune of Thungni [T4 Adamant], (Talismanic): Items and Runes inscribed on the same item as this Rune have increased durability and energy efficiency. Moderately lowers the duration and potency of curses and magic targeting the wearer. (Windsight: Emphasizes the Rune's Wind ordering effect; better breaking apart hostile magic at the cost of weaker smoothing and waste reduction.)
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Rune of Thungni [Talisman]:
Items and Runes inscribed on the same item as this Rune have increased durability and energy efficiency. Lowers the duration and potency of curses and magic targeting the wearer.

Thungni Variant
Items and Runes inscribed on the same item as this Rune have increased durability and energy efficiency. Moderately lowers the duration and potency of curses and magic targeting the wearer.

Ha! Imagine how confused everyone without windsight is going to be when we proclaim this a new rune. As far as they can tell, it just works better! It's only with our special eye that we notice the behind-the-scenes detail that the empowerment of the readily-visible effects comes at the cost of the increased durability and energy efficiency. It'll be noticed in the long term, and then everyone will be scratching their heads at how we knew about it in advance.
 
Alratan said:
Did you mean to quote me?

Thungni and his parents may have been on Albion before going to Zorn. We don't know much or anything about their early days, I think.
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No, I was just pointing out we have a rune-axe that came with all that druid stuff from no known runesmith, that one is probably from Albion, but it does not show an Ancestral level of skill, only one of a centuries old master. Now the thing could be so old that Thungi made if when he only had that level of skill, but that is kind of unlikely to find in the possession of random Fimir. It would be many thousands of years old. So the other option is that there are or have been recently non-Thungi runesmiths on Albion. I think we can comfortably ignore the notion that he had a secret family on Albion ergo Runesmiths not related to Thungi must exist.
 
...what? What rune-axe from albion, what are you on about? We haven't even looted a rune-axe period from our expeditions into the Fimir, the Albion stuff isn't even runed at all, the closest we got is finding a rune hammer which bore no known maker's mark but did make Yorri mighty pissed off but we haven't found a rune-axe at all. And that's far more likely "One of the people Yorri knew" than "Albionese."
 
DragonParadox said:
No, I was just pointing out we have a rune-axe that came with all that druid stuff from no known runesmith, that one is probably from Albion, but it does not show an Ancestral level of skill, only one of a centuries old master. Now the thing could be so old that Thungi made if when he only had that level of skill, but that is kind of unlikely to find in the possession of random Fimir. It would be many thousands of years old. So the other option is that there are or have been recently non-Thungi runesmiths on Albion. I think we can comfortably ignore the notion that he had a secret family on Albion ergo Runesmiths not related to Thungi must exist.
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Only notable thing from Albion I can remember was the sword (not noted to have any runes) and the soup cauldron. Do you have a quote on where it's mentioned?

Edit: Wait, no there's also the barrel and horn, but that still isn't an axe.
 
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ArchAIngel said:
...what? What rune-axe from albion, what are you on about? We haven't even looted a rune-axe period from our expeditions into the Fimir, the Albion stuff isn't even runed at all, the closest we got is finding a rune hammer which bore no known maker's mark but did make Yorri mighty pissed off but we haven't found a rune-axe at all. And that's far more likely "One of the people Yorri knew" than "Albionese."
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Right, sorry hammer, either way the fact that no one could recognize it, not even Runelords older than Yori himself and and that it was found with Albionese goods makes it likely it came from there, not to mention the fact that canon has the Old Ones teaching multiple runesmiths in Albion on the other side of the world from Zorn before the Second incursion whereas we know the Ancestor Gods were at Zorn then preparing the dwarfs for what was to come. There simply isn't time for Thungi to have kids and then take those kids to Albion, learn from the old ones and come back to migrate north with the other Ancestor Gods ergo other runesmtiths exist.
 
DragonParadox said:
Right, sorry hammer, either way the fact that no one could recognize it, not even Runelords older than Yori himself and and that it was found with Albionese goods makes it likely it came from there, not to mention the fact that canon has the Old Ones teaching multiple runesmiths in Albion on the other side of the world from Zorn before the Second incursion whereas we know the Ancestor Gods were at Zorn then preparing the dwarfs for what was to come. There simply isn't time for Thungi to have kids and then take those kids to Albion, learn from the old ones and come back to migrate north with the other Ancestor Gods ergo other runesmtiths exist.
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A rune hammer being held by the Fimir is not enough evidence to say it came from Albion, just that the Fimir took it. Unless it was made in a very similar way to all the other Albion artifacts we have, it's more likely it's from a Dwarven hold. For that matter, none of the other Albion artifacts have runes on them, they're all made with magic.
 
DragonParadox said:
Right, sorry hammer, either way the fact that no one could recognize it, not even Runelords older than Yori himself and and that it was found with Albionese goods makes it likely it came from there, not to mention the fact that canon has the Old Ones teaching multiple runesmiths in Albion on the other side of the world from Zorn before the Second incursion whereas we know the Ancestor Gods were at Zorn then preparing the dwarfs for what was to come. There simply isn't time for Thungi to have kids and then take those kids to Albion, learn from the old ones and come back to migrate north with the other Ancestor Gods ergo other runesmtiths exist.
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There's no mention of Yorri showing it to other Runesmiths older than himself that I can recall. As retrodragon says, their spatial association implies nothing about actual source - just as easily it could have come from anywhere and been put in the same loot vault.

What'd make Yorri mighty pissed? An old Apprentice of his being killed, or dwarven tomb, being raided by the Fimir. Sure, apparently there were Runesmiths on Albion. Yet, in this quest, the thing we are actually playing, Runesmiths on Albion is an extraordinary claim which we have not yet seen supported. Quest canon is always primary, even over lore books, by word of soul years ago.
 
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BungieONI said:
There's no mention of Yorri showing it to other Runesmiths older than himself that I can recall. As retrodragon says, their spatial association implies nothing about actual source - just as easily it could have come from anywhere and been put in the same loot vault.

What'd make Yorri mighty pissed? An old Apprentice of his being killed, or dwarven tomb, being raided by the Fimir. Sure, apparently there were Runesmiths on Albion. Yet, in this quest, the thing we are actually playing, Runesmiths on Albion is an extraordinary claim which we have not yet seen supported. Quest canon is always primary, even over lore books, by word of soul years ago.
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Fair enough, the hints of more runesmiths in this quest are still circumstantial.
 
DragonParadox said:
Right, sorry hammer, either way the fact that no one could recognize it, not even Runelords older than Yori himself and and that it was found with Albionese goods makes it likely it came from there, not to mention the fact that canon has the Old Ones teaching multiple runesmiths in Albion on the other side of the world from Zorn before the Second incursion whereas we know the Ancestor Gods were at Zorn then preparing the dwarfs for what was to come. There simply isn't time for Thungi to have kids and then take those kids to Albion, learn from the old ones and come back to migrate north with the other Ancestor Gods ergo other runesmtiths exist.
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They's plenty of time if the Old Ones taught Thungni before he ever went to Zorn, give that the Paths of the Old Ones would have been working then, and they could basically skip the distance between Albion and Zorn. Remember that the Old Ones taught the original dwarven runesmiths, before the polar warp gates fell when the Old Ones disappeared, and the Ancestor Gods emerged in Zorn just after the fall of the warp gates.

Any Albionese runesmiths would have been descendants of the dwarven pupils of the Old Ones who stayed on Albion when the future Ancestor Gods left and went to Zorn.
 
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Actually what information does exist regarding the topic? I found some references to the dark shadows campaign book from 2001, but despite my best efforts I wasn't able to get a copy of it myself. Is it a reliable source?
 
Alratan said:
They's plenty of time if the Old Ones taught Thungni before he ever went to Zorn, give that the Paths of the Old Ones would have been working then, and they could basically skip the distance between Albion and Zorn. Remember that the Old Ones taught the original dwarven runesmiths, before the polar warp gates fell when the Old Ones disappeared, and the Ancestor Gods emerged in Zorn just after the fall of the warp gates.

Any Albionese runesmiths would have been descendants of the dwarven pupils of the Old Ones who stayed on Albion when the future Ancestor Gods left and went to Zorn.
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I think Thungi was born not long before the Ancestor Gods took over, he was young enough that for a time the Zornish nobility saw him as a potential dynastic bargaining chip. I do not think he would have had time to slip out of public view and go to Albion.
 
theretrodragon said:
Actually what information does exist regarding the topic? I found some references to the dark shadows campaign book from 2001, but despite my best efforts I wasn't able to get a copy of it myself. Is it a reliable source?
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It's the original and best source on Albion.

DragonParadox said:
I think Thungi was born not long before the Ancestor Gods took over, he was young enough that for a time the Zornish nobility saw him as a potential dynastic bargaining chip. I do not think he would have had time to slip out of public view and go to Albion.
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Look at how young Snorri was when he finished his apprenticeship, and Thungni was certainly more talented and if he was taught by the Old Ones probably had better teachers. He could well have been a fully trained runesmith when he and his parents left Albion even if he was young in dwarven terms at that point. I don't think they went back to Albion, I think they were taught before the Coming of Chaos and then sent back.

Or possibly the Ancestor Gods or their own parents were the ones who were the Old Ones' pupils., and the Gift was only passed down to Thungni.
 
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Alratan said:
Look at how young Snorri was when he finished his apprenticeship, and Thungni was certainly more talented and if he was taught by the Old Ones probably had better teachers. He could well have been a fully trained runesmith when he and his parents left Albion even if he was young in dwarven terms at that point. I don't think they went back to Albion, I think they were taught before the Coming of Chaos and then sent back.

Or possibly the Ancestor Gods or their own parents were the ones who were the Old Ones' pupils., and the Gift was only passed down to Thungni.
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Even allowing for that it was his runic skill that got the Zornish nobles to stop seeing him as a pawn so we would have to posit young Thungi hiding the skill for quite some time without much reason to. I think it is more likely that Thungi was not trained on Albion and instead he found some kind of Old One installation either in or adjacent to the Aethyr which contained the information, hence Glittering Realm etc...
 
My bet has always been Thungi found something the Old Ones left behind, and was able to use it give a select few runecraft. And as the principal recipient his was inheritable.

My assumption is whatever it was was incomplete like most things the Old Ones left behind. The Ancestor Runes are literally just shit the ancestor gods managed to finagle out of the half-functional parts. Which is why they are different from other runes - they are kinda a bunch of spare parts that resonated with the ancestor god in question, rather than whatever (fundamental magic language?) the old ones were trying to build.
 
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BananaBuddy said:
Welcome to Dawi Cooking lore that nobody asked for!
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I would have asked for it if I knew it was an option. Here are my thoughts on it.

Kraka Drakk is great amd I don't have much to add. With Zornish spices and access to vegetables year round, they could make Dawi Kimchi as an option.

Ornsmotek feel pretty sparse, maybe add a segment of smoking meat as an alternative to dry aging as there is so much meat being aged that there isn't enough room for all of them. Which then evolve into become barbeque for local consumption to break down the tough meat of monsters into something so soft even a babe can chew through. The barbeque chefs are also trying out Zornish spices to flavor their barbeque as well for additional flavor. And since the Hold has lots of Rangers maybe they created the first Dawi Deli sandwich of cured meats and cheese between two slices of bread that could be eaten on the move while being nore substantial than just jerky.

For Ravnvake, they got to have Cajun style cooking with veg, crawfish, and tubers. The chef must have tried Elgi spices as well to give a whole different flavor. Muscles(the river clams) are also another food option to develop.

For Kraka Grom, no idea how to evolve their cuisine other than maybe some dwarf created mushroom sauce like how oyster sauce has a vegan alternative made of mushrooms.
 
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