"Me first" is neutral evil.
Besides, I was mostly making a joke about how they are willing to commit to either for us or against us in order to preserve their status as mediators.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
"Me first" is neutral evil.
Besides, I was mostly making a joke about how they are willing to commit to either for us or against us in order to preserve their status as mediators.
- Location
- Somewhere over the Rainbow
I have to wonder how much pointing out that the main goal is to destroy the existing Magical Girl ecosystem would help people?
After all, with how many likely leave familiars alone, in order to conserve magic and obtain grief seeds - especially with how well known Mami is for her non-standard practices - phrasing it along the lines of 'removing dependency on Grief Seeds is the Method, not the primary goal' would help.
(By phrasing it as 'make sure not to let Witches, or their familiars fester' the implied onus feels less.)
Also, I wonder how many conflicts are exaserbated by the demand for Grief Seeds. After all, pleanty of Puella Magi likely choose thier leader due to Combat Ability (which includes tactics)
After all, with how many likely leave familiars alone, in order to conserve magic and obtain grief seeds - especially with how well known Mami is for her non-standard practices - phrasing it along the lines of 'removing dependency on Grief Seeds is the Method, not the primary goal' would help.
(By phrasing it as 'make sure not to let Witches, or their familiars fester' the implied onus feels less.)
Also, I wonder how many conflicts are exaserbated by the demand for Grief Seeds. After all, pleanty of Puella Magi likely choose thier leader due to Combat Ability (which includes tactics)
Is it weird I kind of like Toshimichi a lot?
Don't worry Yuki, for every copycat we encounter we'll add another floor onto the moonbase.
We're gonna wanna bring up Clear Seeds 'cause they're a great counterpoint to the idea of wanting meguca dependent on us. Nothing quite like a hundred years being stapled onto your lifespan.
Interesting that she's surprised when we do something Hitomi suggests. Has magic been defeated by the simple cellphone?
- Location
- Illinois
Oh, for fuck's --
Okay, I get it now.
I don't know about the rest of you but I've been looking at this like Tokyo should be desperate for what we're selling, but that's not... That doesn't have to be the situation we're dealing with.
What if they just don't know? That magic = life? What does that make their perspective on this? Because I can see them reacting to us the way they have -- Tokyo as a whole, I mean -- if they don't get that. If they think that running out of magic isn't a life-ending problem.
And here's the thing, we know there was that big mindwipe, and we think it was over the witchbomb, right?
But like. What if they don't know the lichbomb either?
It's well established that the lichbomb gets across the point that running out of magic = die -- we've seen that IC. And that should be plenty enough to convince groups to be "desperate" for grief seeds. What if -- what if that's the world we're in, and I now think it's highly likely that it is, a world where Tokyo (maybe outside the Chiyoda group) doesn't know the lichbomb?
I mean. In that scenario -- doesn't everything we've seen basically make more sense? I have a tough time understanding the territory system in that circumstance but... I can't help but think that it explains the politics that we've been seeing, and it just does it so well.
It would also explain why this is such a bitch for us. Because then, yeah, all these inane concerns we've been hearing make perfect sense.
Okay, I get it now.
I don't know about the rest of you but I've been looking at this like Tokyo should be desperate for what we're selling, but that's not... That doesn't have to be the situation we're dealing with.
What if they just don't know? That magic = life? What does that make their perspective on this? Because I can see them reacting to us the way they have -- Tokyo as a whole, I mean -- if they don't get that. If they think that running out of magic isn't a life-ending problem.
And here's the thing, we know there was that big mindwipe, and we think it was over the witchbomb, right?
But like. What if they don't know the lichbomb either?
It's well established that the lichbomb gets across the point that running out of magic = die -- we've seen that IC. And that should be plenty enough to convince groups to be "desperate" for grief seeds. What if -- what if that's the world we're in, and I now think it's highly likely that it is, a world where Tokyo (maybe outside the Chiyoda group) doesn't know the lichbomb?
I mean. In that scenario -- doesn't everything we've seen basically make more sense? I have a tough time understanding the territory system in that circumstance but... I can't help but think that it explains the politics that we've been seeing, and it just does it so well.
It would also explain why this is such a bitch for us. Because then, yeah, all these inane concerns we've been hearing make perfect sense.
That's a terrifying conclusion. There are 27 magical girl groups in Tokyo—that's got to be around 100 girls. They communicate with outsiders semi-regularly. Nadia probably travels through Tokyo each time she visits Japan. She Who Must Not Be Named was in Tokyo a few months ago on "business". How could none of them know about the lichbomb? How could none of them discovered it?
And more importantly, what's suppressing that knowledge? Kyubey?
- Location
- Illinois
Okay so some inferences from this.
First: Chiyoda has no idea what bomb exposure we have. That would be an excellent candidate for what Toshimichi wants to know, because:
Second: I'd be wary of someone coming to my town with cleansing and the lich/witchbombs and I'd want to know what was going to happen. And moreso because:
Third: from Toshimichi's perspective, consider whether it would be a sure thing whether or not this stranger with cleansing might drop bombs to get people to understand that they need cleansing. Which could be Interesting for a lot of reasons but also because:
Fourth: lichbombing or witchbombing a bunch of people who Toshimichi was responsible for mindwiping of the lichbomb/witchbomb might be really, really Interesting for Toshimich and Chiyoda, regardless of the motives they had in mindwiping those people. Re-learning the thing they were mindwiped of sounds like a good way to break the wipe.
Let's avoid assuming this is all true as of yet, but this is a possible train of logic that follows if it is.
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- Location
- Illinois
Some do. We know that some do know the lichbomb at minimum. But -- it would absolutely suffice for many of them not to.
I mean increasingly it seems to me that the alternative where most of them know the lichbomb involves half of Tokyo being wannabe crimes against humanity. "Don't deserve free grief seeds" my ass.
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I know this is probably irrational, but something about Toshimichi just gives me bad vibes. I can't explain why but it feels like I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop. It's probably the very real chance that she's mind wiping people to be honest.
So I can see the conversation heading in one of two directions from this point:
a) we ask about the "bad blood", and try to understand the political landscape of Tokyo—who the major factions are, which ones are opposing us, which ones are supporting us, and why.
b) we emphasise the importance of what we are offering; we show off our ability, we show off a clear seed, and if need be, we lichbomb Chiyoda right here, right now. I'd suggest a witchbomb as well, but Mami, Madoka and Kasumi are all present, and that's a can of worms we don't need opening right now.
Obviously we want to cover both of these topics, but which do we start with? With the 'badblood' option we gain what we came here for—an understanding of how the council works, of the factions within it, and then we can start shaping a strategy. With the "it's free food you morons" option, we might be able to sway Chiyoda into abandoning their hesitation or shock them into actually acting.
a) we ask about the "bad blood", and try to understand the political landscape of Tokyo—who the major factions are, which ones are opposing us, which ones are supporting us, and why.
b) we emphasise the importance of what we are offering; we show off our ability, we show off a clear seed, and if need be, we lichbomb Chiyoda right here, right now. I'd suggest a witchbomb as well, but Mami, Madoka and Kasumi are all present, and that's a can of worms we don't need opening right now.
Obviously we want to cover both of these topics, but which do we start with? With the 'badblood' option we gain what we came here for—an understanding of how the council works, of the factions within it, and then we can start shaping a strategy. With the "it's free food you morons" option, we might be able to sway Chiyoda into abandoning their hesitation or shock them into actually acting.
Oripa
Misfolded
Based on the... wide range of reactions that meguca have to the witchbomb, mindwiping may not be the worst choice depending on how it went down. Of course it's a very poor and fragile way to preserve stability, but Tokyo isn't exactly easy mode when it comes to crisis management (meguca density by area too high).
Mind magic is also still very much an assumption on our part and I'm honestly not seeing much evidence for it beyond fitting the circumstance. We know that those who have been witchbombed are usually very sensitive about what they say to others and it's not exactly common knowledge for the average meguca. Large portions of Tokyo may not know just due to information control from Chiyoda + those who do know being tight-lipped + Kyubey nonsense.
Too many possibilities still IMO.
Mind magic is also still very much an assumption on our part and I'm honestly not seeing much evidence for it beyond fitting the circumstance. We know that those who have been witchbombed are usually very sensitive about what they say to others and it's not exactly common knowledge for the average meguca. Large portions of Tokyo may not know just due to information control from Chiyoda + those who do know being tight-lipped + Kyubey nonsense.
Too many possibilities still IMO.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
It's not at all clear to me that there's any substantial evidence behind the theory that Tokyo hides the lichbomb. The Osaki group was almost certainly aware of it (they explicitly mention Grief Seed scarcity as a impediment to survival), and even if they aren't lichbombed it would be in the same way that Kyouko "wasn't lichbombed" but was well aware of how valuable Grief Seeds (and thus Clear Seeds) are.
To me it seems more likely that the angle is more what Osaki explicitly said - that while they don't wish death on anyone, there are some groups that simply can't be trusted with unlimited magic. And to be frank, Sabrina agrees - we didn't exactly hand Iowa a Clear Seed.
To me it seems more likely that the angle is more what Osaki explicitly said - that while they don't wish death on anyone, there are some groups that simply can't be trusted with unlimited magic. And to be frank, Sabrina agrees - we didn't exactly hand Iowa a Clear Seed.
- Location
- Illinois
So, I was looking for a response that would poke a hole in this. Thank you.
I got here from these:
My thinking at the time:
There's no fucking way. Right? "Some groups" is pretty plural. And at that point if they knew the witchbomb we're talking about multiple groups of wannabe Geneva violations, if they knew the lichbomb then "just" groups of wannabe murderers. There's no way.
And:
My thinking at the time:
This is not the right attitude for being lichbombed. Being concerned with dependence on the sole source of reliable cleansing? You don't concern yourself with being dependent on necessities.
The second one still stands but the first one, I think I agree with @Redshirt Army's interpretation and without both I don't like the theory I was working on.
So... different angle...
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
I think that we (that is, the folks in the thread) really aren't going to have the same perspectives on things as children who have been regularly engaging in lethal combat at least every few weeks, over a span of weeks to years on end. Hell, consideration has to be given for how much ordinary combat tours affect the disposition of soldiers, and they're at least adults and trained to some extent for dealing with the stresses.
So, discounting the idea that most of Tokyo can't be lichbombed because it would make them 'too evil' is... an exceptionally bad take to make. It's dismissive of the pressures that magical girl life places on them, and of the unique pressures that come from having so many different cliques in constant tension.
FAKE EDIT: Aaaand the thread has moved on since I started writing. I want to actually be posting again, though, so I'll just post this, especially since I think it could be a useful reminder of the difference in perspectives.
So, discounting the idea that most of Tokyo can't be lichbombed because it would make them 'too evil' is... an exceptionally bad take to make. It's dismissive of the pressures that magical girl life places on them, and of the unique pressures that come from having so many different cliques in constant tension.
FAKE EDIT: Aaaand the thread has moved on since I started writing. I want to actually be posting again, though, so I'll just post this, especially since I think it could be a useful reminder of the difference in perspectives.
They may be the extreme end of it, but Iowa proves that not many teenagers high on magic and power have the Geneva Conventions on the forefront of their minds. Or internalized what turning into a witch would be like beyond a vague "very very bad".
O2Deprived
Goose Slayer
- Location
- Under the black rain.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Making an effort to show themselves as a power, which they are, in an attempt to bring the Golden Goose of Grief over here? Interested in possibilities offered, but internal strife difficults everything on their end, specially since there's probably a few groups that won't consider us beyond what use they can apply to this.
- Location
- a Minecraft Rollercoaster
OK skeleton vote time:
[Q] Ask about sorounding groups, especially 'problematic' groups
[Q] Inquire whether they know about Clesr Seed capacities, and if so, why might there still be friction
- [Q] Ask if she is willing to be the trust holder of one or more Clear seed.
[Q] Probe about their knowledge of the Lichbomb
I'm slightly uncertain about trying to inquire about the Lichbomb, but this is critical to establish as an open truth, otherwise our conversation is hopeless. Of course, we will have to OK this with MadoHito.
Also, for clarity sake, cause I just remembered this: should we mention or alude to our unofficial visit? I assume not? Since that would be a bad look for whomever we visited unofficially, and create tensions. On the other hand, having to avoid talking about this seems also likely to blow up in our face, so all the better to deal with it on our own terms.
[Q] Ask about sorounding groups, especially 'problematic' groups
[Q] Inquire whether they know about Clesr Seed capacities, and if so, why might there still be friction
- [Q] Ask if she is willing to be the trust holder of one or more Clear seed.
[Q] Probe about their knowledge of the Lichbomb
I'm slightly uncertain about trying to inquire about the Lichbomb, but this is critical to establish as an open truth, otherwise our conversation is hopeless. Of course, we will have to OK this with MadoHito.
Also, for clarity sake, cause I just remembered this: should we mention or alude to our unofficial visit? I assume not? Since that would be a bad look for whomever we visited unofficially, and create tensions. On the other hand, having to avoid talking about this seems also likely to blow up in our face, so all the better to deal with it on our own terms.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
My overwhelming impression, honestly, is that Chiyoda in general is putting up a massive facade, trying to portray themselves as significantly more powerful, more omniscient, more well connected, etc etc than they are in reality.
They're trying to put together this image of effortless grace and competence, but it's starting to fray a touch at the edges when it comes to an extremely powerful outside group like ours suddenly and unpredictably barging in.
This shouldn't be that surprising - the kind of brute force power it would take to keep something like Tokyo in check is many orders of magnitude greater than the amount of power it takes to run Tokyo through, well, politics -
well placed information gathering, playing internal actors against each other, and so on.
This also, it has to be said, doesn't make them bad people. "Not being strong enough to hold Tokyo with brute force" is hardly a sin, and keeping Tokyo stable through guile, misdirection, and a silver tongue ultimately saves just as many lives from magical girl combat as doing it the direct way.
They're trying to put together this image of effortless grace and competence, but it's starting to fray a touch at the edges when it comes to an extremely powerful outside group like ours suddenly and unpredictably barging in.
This shouldn't be that surprising - the kind of brute force power it would take to keep something like Tokyo in check is many orders of magnitude greater than the amount of power it takes to run Tokyo through, well, politics -
well placed information gathering, playing internal actors against each other, and so on.
This also, it has to be said, doesn't make them bad people. "Not being strong enough to hold Tokyo with brute force" is hardly a sin, and keeping Tokyo stable through guile, misdirection, and a silver tongue ultimately saves just as many lives from magical girl combat as doing it the direct way.
O2Deprived
Goose Slayer
- Location
- Under the black rain.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Definetely want to help them, not sure how. Gotta obtain more information, won't be able to do anything, otherwise.
I've just realised it, but Toshimichi is giving off some mixed signals here. One the one hand, she's presenting herself as the grand empress of Tokyo; all powerful, all knowing, and completely in control.
But it also feels like she has no power at all; she can't appear to have a bias, she can barely control the council, there are factions and feuds that she can barely contain. It sounds like if she was to actually accept our offer, a significant part of the council will rebel.
She's not an empress ruling over sworn vassals, she's a chairman attempting to keep the stockholders happy.
But it also feels like she has no power at all; she can't appear to have a bias, she can barely control the council, there are factions and feuds that she can barely contain. It sounds like if she was to actually accept our offer, a significant part of the council will rebel.
She's not an empress ruling over sworn vassals, she's a chairman attempting to keep the stockholders happy.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
In all honesty, keeping Tokyo stable through social means is probably better even with the same number of lives saved directly, because it removes some legitimacy from the notion of resolving disputes with brute force, which has secondary effects all over the place in reducing collateral damage.
O2Deprived
Goose Slayer
- Location
- Under the black rain.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Agreed. Can't accept the offer, otherwise other groups will feel potentially threatened/betrayed/similar, and won't stick to the letter of the thing no more.
- Location
- Illinois
Honestly?
I can't help but think we should poke at the "obvious" solutions, now. I mean that's the next thing we should do right? Just get the simple stuff out of the way?
I'm just going to post and X this because frankly, it'll come up sooner or later.
I'm sure there are objections to this and I look forward to hearing them and learning from them.
[X] The immediate question you want to address is whether the problems presently on the table can just be solved with some engineering or if they're somehow fundamental.
-[X] You care a lot less about providing people with arbitrary amounts of magic than you do making sure they always have access to a baseline of cleansing, and frankly, rumor and word of mouth have not yet gotten across to people exactly how strong your position is, or else Iowa would have thought better of interrupting your day at the mall yesterday, and there wouldn't be speculation about you looking to bargain people into fighting Walpurgisnacht for you. While help is welcome with that, you are well past the point of it being a necessity.
--[X] If pressed disclose only that Iowa is in custody. We still aren't looking to spread around word of our exact capabilities.
--[X] You don't know that you want to invest an enormous amount of attention into Tokyo at this juncture, because frankly, you have more to do. But it would be a very simple thing to leave a clear seed to Chiyoda's trust, guarantee its security, and let the various groups just... have a limited number of accesses to it a month.
---[X] Hash out whether there is a likely way to make this direction of action work and fly with the council. Examine workable alternatives.
I can't help but think we should poke at the "obvious" solutions, now. I mean that's the next thing we should do right? Just get the simple stuff out of the way?
I'm just going to post and X this because frankly, it'll come up sooner or later.
I'm sure there are objections to this and I look forward to hearing them and learning from them.
[X] The immediate question you want to address is whether the problems presently on the table can just be solved with some engineering or if they're somehow fundamental.
-[X] You care a lot less about providing people with arbitrary amounts of magic than you do making sure they always have access to a baseline of cleansing, and frankly, rumor and word of mouth have not yet gotten across to people exactly how strong your position is, or else Iowa would have thought better of interrupting your day at the mall yesterday, and there wouldn't be speculation about you looking to bargain people into fighting Walpurgisnacht for you. While help is welcome with that, you are well past the point of it being a necessity.
--[X] If pressed disclose only that Iowa is in custody. We still aren't looking to spread around word of our exact capabilities.
--[X] You don't know that you want to invest an enormous amount of attention into Tokyo at this juncture, because frankly, you have more to do. But it would be a very simple thing to leave a clear seed to Chiyoda's trust, guarantee its security, and let the various groups just... have a limited number of accesses to it a month.
---[X] Hash out whether there is a likely way to make this direction of action work and fly with the council. Examine workable alternatives.
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