Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
A few points:
Firstly, if Firn would need to do wiki research for Iowa and their history, I guarantee you he already did it before even so much as bringing up the city's name. Maybe even before when Nadia first mentioned the group, given he probably knew their true MO even back then.
Firn is on record as having no small amount of pride in putting a great deal of context and consideration into even small matters of wording and detail. That habit is very much why I went into the news around Myanmar and Thiruvanthapuram just now.
EDIT: For what it's worth, I'll note I did that research fully realizing it may not actually be relevant in any way shape or form. However, I judged it to be the most likely real world research to actually be relevant and useful to understanding Iowa and their character, because I suspected that if Firn had Iowa's actions inspired by real world events, newsworthy events would be most likely.
Secondly, I very much doubt this will take five updates. Making it just one would require exceptionally precise planning, but only needing a single decision point is plausible, and going across more than three updates is unlikely. Certainly according to past history, a la when we met the Hirano group in Fukushima or Shizuki Haruka. (It's worth noting we only needed three updates of talking with Hitomi's Mom, including the first meeting, because we basically panicked and got a short talk, IIRC.)
Lastly, I wouldn't discount the usefulness of "The first thing we did wasn't to take down Iowa, it was to visit their last victims and see if we could help them," for our reputation. Especially as a counterbalance to any worries our proaction here might cause.
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Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Remember how Nadia's advice after Rionna boiled down to that we were worrying too much about what people would think and nobody would care? That likely holds even more true with a group that everyone seems to have heard of before and knows to be bad news.
- Location
- Illinois
I said that if, IC, this was determined to be a good idea I would support it. It certainly sounds like that has happened, to some degree.
@Genial Precis, your thoughts? I don't intend to back down from my word on this.
Also, bluntly: this was a spectacular update. I get the complaining about progression but honestly, man, read that shit. It's good stuff.
@Genial Precis, your thoughts? I don't intend to back down from my word on this.
Also, bluntly: this was a spectacular update. I get the complaining about progression but honestly, man, read that shit. It's good stuff.
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- Location
- Illinois
I also find myself in need of a goddamn lore check.
@Firnagzen @Redshirt Army @AuraTwilight I was talking with certain people last night who were telling me that Tiro Finale "canonically does not hurt Walpurgisnacht" and that Walpurgisnacht "doesn't have physical resistance she is just that tough" and that "there is NO DIFFERENCE between magical and physical weapons".
I would love some clarification on these statements' canonicity (up to what firn can tell us without saying something like "ask Homura."). They are relevant to Homusocial and I'm kinda annoyed about it.
@Firnagzen @Redshirt Army @AuraTwilight I was talking with certain people last night who were telling me that Tiro Finale "canonically does not hurt Walpurgisnacht" and that Walpurgisnacht "doesn't have physical resistance she is just that tough" and that "there is NO DIFFERENCE between magical and physical weapons".
I would love some clarification on these statements' canonicity (up to what firn can tell us without saying something like "ask Homura."). They are relevant to Homusocial and I'm kinda annoyed about it.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Walpurgisnacht's power is to impose helplessness. In many, many pieces of PMMM extended canon, this takes the form of being able to become selectively immune to basically anything.
In a lot of ways, the only way you can hurt Walpurgisnacht is if she lets you.
Like most PMMM conceptual abilities, this isn't a perfect effect - with enough raw magic behind your attack, you can contest her immunity.
It's just that... well, Walpurgisnacht is Walpurgisnacht, and getting into a raw power standoff with her is not easy. The one time we see this is in Magia Record (which, yes, questionable canonicity in PMAS, but the themes should still apply). And there it took the gathered power of ~100 megucas focussed into a single attack.
So, TLDR - Tiro Finale will do nothing to Walpurgisnacht unless Walpurgis plays along.
A "super Tiro Finale" where Mami does a spirit bomb and gathers the magic of all her friends through her connection with them etc etc could hurt Walpurgis.
No amount of mundane guns will ever hurt Walpurgis without Walpurgis playing along, because mundane guns can't contest Walpurgis's invincibility the way sufficient magic can.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Still looking through my manga collection for sources, but in Homura's Revenge, we see Walpurgisnacht priced by Kyouko's giant spears several times. The first time, the spear is engulfed in flames, and the wound appears to be completely gone in later pages. The second time she's working with Homura, and complains that...
Kyouko: Even that didn't work!?
Kyouko: No! That isn't possible!
Homura: It must have done some damage!
We don't see a good close up again, so it could just be a matter of distance and drawing scale, but the wounds don't appear to be drawn in any later panel.
(Notably for the powers of helplessness, she's defeated by a combination attack, channeling both Homura and Madoka's magic in the same strike. Though reminder here that the mechancis of this manage are iffy in how they apply to PMAS.)
E: Yeah, I think that's the only alternate Walpurgisnacht fight I can find in non-comedy manga. Outside the canon timelines, anyways. Knowledge of the PSP game would probably show more, but that's not my field.
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AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Magia Record isn't even a perfect example, as not only did the cast have minor assistance from Madokami, but also it involved like a hundred-somethign Meguca dramatically changing the script and genre-shifting the fight to a triumphant one by defeating Walpurgisnacht using their Witch magic specifically as they reaffirm how much being a Magical Girl has meant to them and become something they don't regret.
That's a lot of NARRATIVE OOMPH that would undermine Walpurgis to a large degree.
Same for the PSP game; the turning point in beating Walpurgisnacht without tragedy was Homura confessing everything to everyone, getting their understanding and support, and Madoka agreeing to entrust Homura to protect her as everyone else stands unified with Homura as her ally.
Like, that's literally her arc.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Yep. In the absence of narrative shenanigans causing Walpurgis to willingly shuffle off-stage, the answer to "what will a Tiro Finale do to Walpurgis?" seems to be "jack shit, lol".
- Location
- Canada, probably
Ehhh? You're mad! I like field moves a lot, but HMs are a poor implementation of them. Having to cram HMs into your battle team is bad. If you want to emphasize the non-cockfighting aspect, having your combat needs fight against every other use is terrible.
I think the best implementation would be something like the Secret Techniques in the Let's Go spinoffs. You don't need to install it on one of your pets, just acquire it. Even though it doesn't make a ton of sense, the fact that Secret Techniques are, according to the game lore, normally used by trainers themselves opens some possibilities. It means you could find, say, the Lapras that lives in the cave to teach you how to Sea Skim, or resurrect an Aerodactyl to learn Sky Dash. That would be fun.
Questing for the ability to do cool stuff outside of combat is interesting, but there's no reason it should take up one of your precious limited combat slots. That's what turns them into a burden instead of a boon.
…Oh hey a new chapter. Um. Uh, y'all are doing a great job! I'll let you know if I have any ideas that aren't Pokémon-related!
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Right so, broad flight-long proposal.
[] Figure out what to do about the lichbomb, and if that changed with the decision to stop by India first.
[] Plan to head to Thiruvananthapuram, absent any strenuous disagreement from your allies.
[]Pre-Fukushima and Pre-Asunaro:
-[]Vote in Abeyance, (review for possible minor adjustments.)
--[] Minor adjustment: Ask Mami about triangulating the exact location using her "compass." Likewise, get clarification from Oriko whether she can scan from range with an exact location.
--[] Possible adjustment: Making space to help non-intel-focused folks figure out how to work together well during this time.
[]Post-Asunaro meetup:
-[] Getting on the same page and relaying intelligence gathered during the trip up to this point.
--[] Final input from teams (probably mostly Asunaro due to them being a fresh set of eyes) on intel or actions that could be taken in that regard here and now.
-[] Form and talk about broad strategy. (Discuss and expand in real vote)
-[] Focused efforts to work together start here.
--[] Figure out who works together well and who can work together well.
--[] Discuss whether you can work with Moe and Sasami in casting shadows with grief and whether the value of Luce Prima and lesser grief-light sources to both their powers.
--[] Other suggestions will be relevant here too, I'm sure.
--[] Just plain actual practice, as much as is possible.
[]Reaching Thiruvananthapuram:
-[] Bring locals into timestop (carefully,) offer cleansing & partially cleared seeds, then ask if they're willing to talk.
--[] The initial approach should be carefully considered, since we're basically pulling whoever we meet into timestop with no warning.
-[] Get intel from them. Revise plans accordingly.
-[] There's a good update break point around here, as a lot of new information is expected.
[]Reaching Myanmar & Iowa: Final scouting/final revisions.
-[] Also a good break point. Lot of unknowns so hard to votecraft this far out.
[] Figure out what to do about the lichbomb, and if that changed with the decision to stop by India first.
[] Plan to head to Thiruvananthapuram, absent any strenuous disagreement from your allies.
[]Pre-Fukushima and Pre-Asunaro:
-[]Vote in Abeyance, (review for possible minor adjustments.)
--[] Minor adjustment: Ask Mami about triangulating the exact location using her "compass." Likewise, get clarification from Oriko whether she can scan from range with an exact location.
--[] Possible adjustment: Making space to help non-intel-focused folks figure out how to work together well during this time.
[]Post-Asunaro meetup:
-[] Getting on the same page and relaying intelligence gathered during the trip up to this point.
--[] Final input from teams (probably mostly Asunaro due to them being a fresh set of eyes) on intel or actions that could be taken in that regard here and now.
-[] Form and talk about broad strategy. (Discuss and expand in real vote)
-[] Focused efforts to work together start here.
--[] Figure out who works together well and who can work together well.
--[] Discuss whether you can work with Moe and Sasami in casting shadows with grief and whether the value of Luce Prima and lesser grief-light sources to both their powers.
--[] Other suggestions will be relevant here too, I'm sure.
--[] Just plain actual practice, as much as is possible.
[]Reaching Thiruvananthapuram:
-[] Bring locals into timestop (carefully,) offer cleansing & partially cleared seeds, then ask if they're willing to talk.
--[] The initial approach should be carefully considered, since we're basically pulling whoever we meet into timestop with no warning.
-[] Get intel from them. Revise plans accordingly.
-[] There's a good update break point around here, as a lot of new information is expected.
[]Reaching Myanmar & Iowa: Final scouting/final revisions.
-[] Also a good break point. Lot of unknowns so hard to votecraft this far out.
- Location
- Illinois
Tsk, parts of the blueprint require serious revision, then. Irritating, but better to end up irritated than wrong...
Bah, there's only one thing this is relevant to me for.
The Plan was to use timestop training montages to help Homura become able to wield something along the lines of Madoka's bow, on the basis that a sufficiently piercing-oriented, magic-heavy attack would allow Homura to actually harm Walpurgisnacht, using our grief as a stand-in for Wally for training purposes. This was to function as one of multiple prongs for resolving Homura's issues with her self.
Is this feasible, based on what we know? And equally importantly, if so, is it feasible in the "Walpurgisnacht will let this hurt her" sense or the "given support from Sabrina's cleansing, this could actually be overpowered into the territory of being remotely scratch her through her ability" sense?
@The Phoenixian @AuraTwilight @Redshirt Army
Bah, there's only one thing this is relevant to me for.
The Plan was to use timestop training montages to help Homura become able to wield something along the lines of Madoka's bow, on the basis that a sufficiently piercing-oriented, magic-heavy attack would allow Homura to actually harm Walpurgisnacht, using our grief as a stand-in for Wally for training purposes. This was to function as one of multiple prongs for resolving Homura's issues with her self.
Is this feasible, based on what we know? And equally importantly, if so, is it feasible in the "Walpurgisnacht will let this hurt her" sense or the "given support from Sabrina's cleansing, this could actually be overpowered into the territory of being remotely scratch her through her ability" sense?
@The Phoenixian @AuraTwilight @Redshirt Army
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
It likely would work, in the "Walpurgis would let this hurt her" sense - Homura overcoming her issues and working together with others is a powerful story, and this would be a manifestation of that.
I don't think it can approach the "actually scratch her through her ability" threshold, though - not without a ton of allies all pooling their power into Homura directly or the like, and Homura's magic has no intrinsic advantages in that scenario, as compared to something like Mami's "connections".
- Location
- Illinois
That is what I was asking, actually -- if we overpowered the attack to all fuck via timestop + massive cleansing. Like, can we replace the hundred meguca with one meguca using one hundred gems' worth of magic.
It doesn't have to do more than singe the bitch, even. Anything would be enough. Anything is something that could be scaled up, versus zero which can't.
Whether or not her magic has advantages for it is irrelevant, as is, like, the combat utility of it. The point would be Homura Hurting Walpurgisnacht, which would basically destroy any remaining -- it would be really really really really really good for her.
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AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
If Magia Record is any indication, all Homura needs to be satisfied that she was helpful against Walpy is to let people coordinate and get hits in via Time Stop, even if she herself deals no damage. She was entirely happy to just Timestop and let Iroha aim her Fuck Off Win Attack without having to account for a moving target.
So I'm not too worried. But in any case, she can almost definitely unlock the black Madoka Bow.
Like there's no way in hell she can't do that if we're already helping her branch into new enchantments and powers based around Protecting Madoka.
So I'm not too worried. But in any case, she can almost definitely unlock the black Madoka Bow.
Like there's no way in hell she can't do that if we're already helping her branch into new enchantments and powers based around Protecting Madoka.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Hmm, in that case... it should be hypothetically possible, yes. Just keep piling on the raw magical potency until it rivals Walpurgis's full efforts. That's... an unknown break point, though. Even in Magia Record, where it took a hundred girls, that was after Walpurgisnacht had been significantly weakened, both from the direct application of magic (including Mami jamming its gears with ribbons), and from the whole "narrative effect" of ~100 gucas agreeing to fight together.
In a hypothetical scenario where it's literally just Sabrina and Homura in timestop, nobody else contributes, and there's no big anti-walpurgis alliance... call it at least a thousand grief seeds worth of grief before you start getting anywhere, and even then I give no guarantees. It's immensely easier to just work with Walpurgis's themes and take her down that way, instead of trying to brute force it.
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Uh guys what are we going to do about Homura suddenly vanishing from the foodcourt?
@Kaizuki I'm going to use your post about Homura later as a basis for a post of mine, but for now I could use a few explanations as I haven't really joined this quest yet and I just have a few questions to ask and then I'll be out of the thread until I make the previously mentioned post:
Why aren't we checking witchnames to make sure there are no infiltrators among our allies?
What is the long term plan with the whole Grief to Hope transformation Sabrina can do? Like can we make a barrier out of Hope down the line and get to talk to our Witch when she isn't feeling like derailing our hard work? Or just make the Hope wings work like proper wings?
This last question is for both @Firnagzen and the rest of the thread: Can we have Ozar Midrashim as the music for the next part? Seems appropriate.
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- Location
- Illinois
1,000 for a killing blow or 1,000 to hurt her? Because believe me as far as I am concerned 1,000 grief seeds of cleansing would be a cheap price to pay to prove to Homura that harming Walpurgisnacht is so much as remotely something she could even hypothetically come to be capable of doing.
Every theme I laid out with regards to her centers on her being chained by her inability to become more than she is.
Whether or not it kills WPN I do not care. Doesn't matter. We'll kill Walpy with everyone, if we have to -- but the social value in Homura so much as scratching her is astronomical.
And you cannot tell me you don't want the chance to science the shit necessary to arrange for it. Er, well, you can, but... Please? Pretty please with Einstein on top? *clasps hands pleadingly*
We're going to have to come to this decision ourselves, I think. I ended up writing the following on it:
I think the nebulous "techniques exist allowing this" is a really good cover up to the point of Iowa, you know, saying the lichbomb, and I think maxim one constitutes a pretty good excuse for forbidding gem shots -- improved future safety is a strong argument. And making it clear to everyone in the know that no that's not why we're actually making that request is even better.
There's no real way to keep our non-lichbombed allies out of the fight. So, IMO this is the best I think we can do... If we try to forbid both "lethal" and "gem shots" we will have interesting questions, I think. "What is lethal?" And really we are going to be fighting for our lives. I just do not see it as practical.
Worth noting is that time from Thiruvananthapuram to Myanmar is probably much less than time from Japan to either. I hope-think.
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Recurrence
Armchair Parapsychologist
- Location
- Limbo
Atop the mountain of earthly and heavenly knowledge, all was quiet.
Three figures, shrouded head to foot in ornate robes sat in communion with the universe. Occasionally one would make a slight gesture. A slight relaxation of the shoulders, an inclination of the head. Another would gesture back: A flexing of a finger, a straightening of the spine. This was the way of the sages. All the words needed had already been spoken. They lived in silent harmony with the mountaintop and curated the knowledge of the countless worlds below.
Suddenly, with the softest of scraping sounds, the silence was shattered. The sages turned their heads as one to the emptyness that lead from their seats. A mortal was ascending the path.
It was only at the turning of ages below that mortals ever came to them. Many tried of course, the sages were bound by the oldest, deepest magic to answer any one question presented to them. One and only one. And as the knowledge was complete and the answers perfectly formed, so too were the risks great and the cost high. To reach this place was to cede a great portion of your years in return, assuming you did not perish on the climb.
The scraping came again, louder this time. These moments before a question was asked were the finest wine to the sages. They who knew all, would learn something new. They would learn what the steeliest of fickle hearts found to be worth sacrificing for. Knowing all rendered them incapable of understanding a want for knowledge and each question asked of them was a new insight into the world below, a new lens for pouring over the everflowing annals of creation.
Finally with a louder scraping a gloved hand rose beyond the sheer precipice that ended the path. Followed shortly by another. The Sages observed the struggle against gravity with the patience of the immutable. A hooded and cloaked body followed and the figure emerged panting onto the mountain top. Collecting themselves, they turned to face the sages, inscrutible behind their travel garb.
At length they stepped forward, leaving footprints in snow that had fallen long before they were born. As they approached the seat of all knowledge the sages hailed them as one, in a voice that came from everywhere.
"Ask."
The mortal drew back their hood, revealing their blonde hair and feline features.
"So there's this girl named Homura..."
Jonen C
F.M.D.G.
- Location
- Lincopense, Ostrogothia, Suecia
Two things:
Proper investigation of the India site will likely require dropping timestop at points.
It would in any case be a forensic, post-incident investigation. The facts are unlikely to change, though clues and evidence may be lost over time.
We also have time sensitive actionable intelligence on an as yet still uncomfirmed but highly probable target, which is likely to be both highly mobile, and aware it's been made, but is as yet unaware of the scope of our ability to act on this intel to intercept.
Order of priority is thus set. Use the intel first.
Every minute of livetime we delay we risk getting a harder target.
The india site should be left until we either have Iowa in custody (to gather evidence for a summary judgement) or have a cold trail to work over (to dig up a modus operandi to aid in pursuit).
Proper investigation of the India site will likely require dropping timestop at points.
It would in any case be a forensic, post-incident investigation. The facts are unlikely to change, though clues and evidence may be lost over time.
We also have time sensitive actionable intelligence on an as yet still uncomfirmed but highly probable target, which is likely to be both highly mobile, and aware it's been made, but is as yet unaware of the scope of our ability to act on this intel to intercept.
Order of priority is thus set. Use the intel first.
Every minute of livetime we delay we risk getting a harder target.
The india site should be left until we either have Iowa in custody (to gather evidence for a summary judgement) or have a cold trail to work over (to dig up a modus operandi to aid in pursuit).
- Location
- Illinois
This disagrees with what we were just told in the post, bluntly.
LMFAO
Jonen C
F.M.D.G.
- Location
- Lincopense, Ostrogothia, Suecia
In what way, specifically? I admit may have skimmed and missed details in the last update.
But the general sentiment I've gotten is:
1) Known location of previous iowa op: won't move, time sensitivity is tied only to potential difficulty in figuring out what happened there and mapping it to tactical advantage and moral superiority. This is information that could be most useful going in, though. Will involve a lot more time in timestop for sure which is generally undesirable, may involve dropping timestop which is undesirable.
2) Track on scryer, won't hold permanently, likely to become irrelevant if not pursued quickly (even if Mami can maintain track of the scryer, the rest of their team may ditch and evade if they don't want to fight defense, or set up an ambush if given time to prep). Giving time to them to react and formulate a response is disadvantageous in either case, because we are unlikely to catch them with their pants down like this again if we let them slip.
Basically, my read is we can go in (mostly) blind, but they'll also be blind and unprepped, or we can dig up info to not go in blind, but doing so means we run the risk of giving them more time, also may create more friction in the team.
Rapid action and urgency means the friction will have less time to generate negative effects on team cohesion, which will degrade over time.
For the moment we have the initiative. I am disinclined towards relinquishing it for intangible potentials.
Commit to the strike and see it through.
(By all means, I think we CAN do both things, but I am unsure the potential advantage gained by doing 1-2 is outweighed by the potential risks (which is more to say I do not believe we would gain much in the way of advantage rather than to say there is particularly high risk involved ), while admittedly doing 2-1 may serve only to render 1 superflous - though that may be a good thing.)
lateedit
Even if we do not commit to a strike, i say we need eyes on the target as priority.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Homura didn't timestop from her chair. She excused herself and initiated timestop someplace unseen. We know this because Homura has to transform before she can use her timestop.
[X] Vote in abeyance
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