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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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ON THE WITCH-FAMILIAR RELATIONSHIP​
Alright, bear with me for a bit while I get the set up for the theory:
All information is taken from PMAS only! I'm not going to draw on any of the outside material that hasn't been mentioned yet, because I haven't read/seen it yet.
We know from both Sabrina's experiments with Grief and that time she tried to take over a Familiar that Familiars are extensions of their Witches.
We know that Lesser Soul Gems can be created (Sayaka's power gems).
We know that new souls cannot be created with magic, only through the effects of a Wish.
We know (kind of) that separate personalities can be made into their own Soul Gems (possible explanation for the Soujos)
Scenario 1:
Familiar-Born Witches and the Witch that made the Familiar are the same Witch. Once the Prime Witch(PW) obtains sufficient resources (Grief, Souls, magic, whatevs.) then PW can upgrade a Familiar with a Lesser Soul Gem, thus creating a Familiar Witch(FW). PW and FW are the same entity, FW is simply an extension of PW as before, but with expanded capabilities, and maybe a copy of PW memories. FW Grief Seed wouldn't be capable of holding on to as much Grief as PW's. This Scenario results in a Witch with two Grief Seeds.
Scenario 2:
FWs are PW's psyche defense mechanisms. Since PW are "marinating in their own despair" as Sabrina puts it, they can go mad. In a last ditch attempt to preserve some sanity, PW's psyche would create a split personality and dump some, or all, the crazy into said personality. These split personalities would coalesce into new Greif Seeds and be incorporated into a Familiar, creating a new FW. It is possible that acquiring resources is necessary for the fusion of split personality and Familiar, leading to the belief that Familiars that kill enough people turn into new Witches, or it might be a case of correlation doesn't equal causation. This Scenario would create an entirely new Witch from the PW.
 
So...I have a thought: it might be easier on Mami if we break the news to her while having Sayaka and Homura help comfort her, as if to implicitly remind her that she's not alone anymore and hasn't been alone for a little while now. Though, to do that, we have to explain the situation to Sayaka and Homura beforehand (i.e., right now).
 
[] Agree that Sayaka taking her time and thinking things over would be good. You could be here for hours if she really wanted but she's heard the most important things.
-[] If wants to think on her own ideas on how to help before next time we talk she can and should. New perspective, and varied approaches, are very welcome.
-[] The Shiogama girls and the Kures both know, in case she need to know for any reason.

Other: Sayaka talk vote for coming and talking if she has trouble w/ bomb or other problems, need to reread to judge according to how she's dealing with stuff.
-[] If at any point she needs to talk, or things get hard to deal with, however stupid or pointless the reason, we're here to help.

jmcdavid said:
I have just one question.

When is the Loopbomb going to be dropped?
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When people figure it out on their own or Homura's good and ready.
 
This update has made clear an important fact.
It wasn't grief control.
It wasn't any wish we made.
Heck, it wasn't necessarily Sabrina, even!
The key to fixing everything was finding a common thing for Sayaka and Homura to laugh at together!
 
Appletank said:
FYI, in canon, Familiars are said to turn into a full witch (aka, capable of dropping a grief seed), after eating 5 people. Which brings Questions.
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True, but I have issues with that. First, that info came from coobi and that makes it automatically unreliable. Two, we are far from canon here and now in PMAS; I don't know if we're going with alternative explanations for the Witch-Familiar relationship. I just like to speculate.

AuraTwilight said:
Kazumi kind of blows this completely out of the water, and the fact that they successfully did this is the primary non-Mami, non-Saving All Gucas reason we ever had interest in them.
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Well, I haven't read Kazumi's story, but after reading a wiki summary I can say that they haven't gotten to the ludicrous levels of BS yet. We kinda prevented it when we helped Kazumi way back. As a matter of fact, in PMAS we've only seen two soul bearing entities that were made: one is Hijiri and the other is Sabrina, both were Wishborn [disclamer: Sabrina's case is still up for debate].
 
AionVal said:
First, that info came from coobi and that makes it automatically unreliable.
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Familiars maturing into witches is a thing that canonically has happened, not just something Kyubey talked about once. I know Kyubey isn't a reliable or honest source of information, but he does make a point of not outright lying, lest he worsen his reputation for reasons he actually understands.
 
hillo315 said:
Familiars maturing into witches is a thing that canonically has happened, not just something Kyubey talked about once. I know Kyubey isn't a reliable or honest source of information, but he does make a point of not outright lying, lest he worsen his reputation for reasons he actually understands.
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You know, there seems to be some Fanon that Kyubey is somehow incapable of lying directly, which doesn't make much sense to me because he clearly understands the concept of lying by omission and there isn't anything about being a "perfectly logical being" that would prevent the capability of lying.

So anyways, Miki... Miki... Mickey?


If Madoka is Utena then Homura would likely be... Oh Madokami, being Homura is truly Suffering.
 
King Washington said:
You know, there seems to be some Fanon that Kyubey is somehow incapable of lying directly, which doesn't make much sense to me because he clearly understands the concept of lying by omission and there isn't anything about being a "perfectly logical being" that would prevent the capability of lying.
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Not sure where exactly it came from, but it almost certainly has something to do with Kyubey being referred to as a "fairy" (see: Magia Record, 'make a contract with a white fairy', Kazumi Magica, describing Juubey as a 'fairy') and having the entire 'deal with a fairy' attached to it.
 
King Washington said:
Sabrina's new job is to bully Homura?
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And there was one more. She has no name because she needs none. She was hopeful and cheerful, and a bit too loud and stupid. She goes around to everyone and tells them that all sorts of wonderful things would happen, if only they would listen to her. She and Stupid-Looking are two birds of a feather. Alone of the dolls, she is kind to Good-For-Nothing, even if she does not think she should do the things she does.
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[:V]
I've thought of another power to give to Sayaka! Only problem is, for that we need lerasium. Maybe we could make it out of Grief? But one might think that Grief is more akin to atium... :thonk:
[/:V]
 
In this analogy that makes Sayaka Stupid-Looking, and you know, that makes sense, considering who chose these names.
 
King Washington said:
You know, there seems to be some Fanon that Kyubey is somehow incapable of lying directly, which doesn't make much sense to me because he clearly understands the concept of lying by omission and there isn't anything about being a "perfectly logical being" that would prevent the capability of lying.
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Lying would ruin what little trustworthiness Kyubey does have. And he probably lacks the creativity required to lie as expertly as humans can, anyway.

Omission falls under "dishonesty without lying", and Kyubey doesn't understand why doing that angers humans. The way he sees it, he isn't fooling them if he isn't lying, which... technically isn't wrong, given a poor understanding of "fooling". But he is manipulating them into fooling themselves, which he blames on humans being illogical.

TL;DR: Kyubey doesn't fully understand deception, because he's an alien.
 
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hillo315 said:
Lying would ruin what little trustworthiness Kyubey does have. And he probably lacks the creativity required to lie as expertly as humans can, anyway.

Omission falls under "dishonesty without lying", and Kyubey doesn't understand why doing that angers humans. The way he sees it, he isn't fooling them if he isn't lying, which... technically isn't wrong, given a poor understanding of "fooling". But he is manipulating them into fooling themselves, which he blames on humans being illogical.

TL;DR: Kyubey doesn't fully understand deception, because he's an alien.
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I don't remember if I saw this linked in this thread or elsewhere, but one of the many (, many, many) ideas there is that Kyubey doesn't understand deception because Kyubey lacks the distinction between "self" and "other", because Kyubey is a hivemind with read-write telepathy to anyone nearby who's not part of that hivemind (possibly itself the source of the hivemind effect, if the telepathy is used for automatic constant full-syncing between Kyubey nodes). There's no separation between "having a conversation", "being manipulative", and "use of complex tools", if you don't have the concept that there are other people, and that perspectives exist which are not yours. It's not telling girls things to inform them of facts, it's telling girls things because that makes the girls do things.

Meanwhile, it doesn't state explicit untruths because the lack of concept of other perspectives means that, to the limited extent that it has managed to grasp the existence of other minds to figure out how to make contractees do things, it's still not got the distinction between "things I believe" and "things that are true" well enough to have the idea of "saying things that are not true".

(note: I may be misinterpreting or poorly summarizing; that post is long and I am not a philosopher.)
 
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AionVal said:
Well, I haven't read Kazumi's story, but after reading a wiki summary I can say that they haven't gotten to the ludicrous levels of BS yet. We kinda prevented it when we helped Kazumi way back. As a matter of fact, in PMAS we've only seen two soul bearing entities that were made: one is Hijiri and the other is Sabrina, both were Wishborn [disclamer: Sabrina's case is still up for debate].
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I mean, that's kind of irrelevant? The Pleaides didn't get any sort of power upgrade we kept them from getting; they just did mad science with the powers they already had. And if a bunch of fairly ordinary Magical Girls fucking directly with a Witch's life cycle could create a soul, a Witch can probably also do it as part of it's natural process.

I mean, let's be frank here. All they basically did was make a Familiar grow up into a clone of Kazumi instead of a clone of Carola (her Witch).
 
Something interesting I've noticed from rereading: would confirmed witch names for the non-OCs be used?
I find this one somewhat interesting because I'm fairly sure Sabrina called witch-Kirika "Margot" somewhere earlier, but I'm... fairly sure didn't scan their gems to get Latria/Sotria?
 
AuraTwilight said:
I mean, that's kind of irrelevant? The Pleaides didn't get any sort of power upgrade we kept them from getting; they just did mad science with the powers they already had. And if a bunch of fairly ordinary Magical Girls fucking directly with a Witch's life cycle could create a soul, a Witch can probably also do it as part of it's natural process.

I mean, let's be frank here. All they basically did was make a Familiar grow up into a clone of Kazumi instead of a clone of Carola (her Witch).
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Like I said, I haven't read Kazumi, so I could be way off the mark. It does sound like they just hijacked the Witch and used the original Soul, though.
Still, when I make a mistake I like to live by the gospel of Emiya
 
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