I do want to put the homework bit there, even if we don't get to it this update or even the next.
Then remember to put it into the vote later.

edit: There are times where we can stack things up so we don't have to vote for them later, typically when we have a low-cost vote and something really important to remember later. I don't think that this is one of those times.
-[] Look Mami in the eyes. Tell her straight up that you're not her, but you think you know her pretty well at this point, and while parts of this might be extremely painful, it's also a story that you are completely certain she would decide needed to be heard.
This is useless, condescending, and insulting. Mami is not an idiot. She understands how important a step this is for Homura's well-being. We've been talking forever about how hard we've been trying to help Homura open up. Mami also understands how much Homura's past hurts. Again, not only have we talked about it, it's easy enough to infer that even Sayaka figured it out. Mami looked at Homura then looked at us; she was, in that moment, asking us if we thought it was a good idea. Given all of that, do we really need to beg Mami to listen to Homura's story? Mami knows how much this will help. Mami knows that it will hurt. She's going to do it because it's the right thing to do.
-[] Break if/when Homura finishes.
I'm not against this, exactly, but I think that we should be thinking about and voting about how we're going to handle the follow-up questions that are so obvious that we were prompted to answer them in the defaults:
- [] How do you explain your part?
-[] But don't just sit there and let it go unchallenged if she tries to accuse herself of, say, not trying to save anyone but Madoka.
I think that this is a bad idea. We aren't going to address Homura's self-hatred in the coming update. It is more important that she is able to tell her story any way she can than that she tells it our way. We can work on helping Homura tell it better after she can tell it at all. And that means that we cannot afford to get bogged down in a fight over something like this.

And, again, the defaults make me think that Homura isn't going to go all self-hatred anyway. We've been trying to prepare ourselves and Homura for this since the start of the quest. If we're there to support her without outright contradicting her and we're keeping in mind that our goal is to help her get this out, then she'll make it through perfectly fine.

Also, I think that Mami's going to do a better job of that than we could. We've already told Homura all those things. Mami will tell her that she's better than she thinks she is - it's impossible for her not to - and it'll mean more that she said it without our prompting. It's like telling Homura that Sayaka trusts her; Homura can recognize patterns.
--[x] The single most important thing is that you can now ask Mami if she wants to do a "permission to date your daughter skit" whenever it is that we finally come clean to Mado-kaa-san.
Ehhhhh. This would be an excellent joke to throw in if the opportunity presents itself, but I don't know if the opportunity will present itself. I suspect that this is going to be an incredibly heavy update and I think that we'd want to save this for the sign-off or a succeeding conversation on the same topic. edit: If you must, slap a conditional on it: If the opportunity arises, try to lighten things up by...
 
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[] You're going to need to support both parties in this. Mami is going to be hurt at points of this, and Homura doing it at is...
[] Wait for Homura to affirm that she's sure.
-[] Look Mami in the eyes. Tell her straight up that you're not her, but you think you know her pretty well at this point, and while parts of this might be extremely painful, it's also a story that you are completely certain she would decide needed to be heard.

Sorry, The Phoenixian, but I think this part is unnecessary and kinda meddling with letting Homura to tell her story in her own way?
Two reasons.
Firstly, because we'd affect the presentation by stressing how serious and important it is.
Not that I say it's not, but Homura can honestly do a better job just by, well
*motions in the direction of the Homublob, ready to break down at the slightest provocation*
Secondly, if she suddenly decides that she'd rather not tell her story, then I'll scream in frustration, but I will ultimately accept it. It's not likely, but it's about leaving Homura with no possibility of a choice however small a chance that she chooses it is, if that makes sense.

Edit: about not letting Homura to accuse herself and stuff, maybe?
I honestly divide between thinking that it will be meddling we can do after she tells the story herself, and that Brinapilot is going to do it anyway and maybe suddenly pull a squirt spray out of her hammerspace to demonstrate her commitment.
 
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I think that this is a bad idea. We aren't going to address Homura's self-hatred in the coming update. It is more important that she is able to tell her story any way she can than that she tells it our way. We can work on helping Homura tell it better after she can tell it at all. And that means that we cannot afford to get bogged down in a fight over something like this.

...

There are a lot of ways to make it clear to a third party that you don't fully agree with what someone is saying. You can use body language, words, telepathy (not IRL, sadly)... the list goes on. Oftentimes, it's enough to just grimace, shake your head slightly, or meet someone's eyes and pinch your face a little bit.

You don't have to start a fight with someone to do it -- well, unless they're being wrong on the internet :V

I think your dismissal of this is just wrong. Everything I've learned from everyone I've learned from in this thread -- sometimes @AuraTwilight, often any number of others -- indicates to me that Homura absolutely thinks of her actions in the past in vastly more negative terms than they deserve to be thought of. It doesn't have to be a big thing -- rather, it can be an extremely small thing -- but I think we should definitely include something that works towards not allowing Homura to shoot herself in the foot without giving any indication that we disagree with what she's saying.

Probably should inform Homura that the witchbomb is off-limits at the moment (save for "that thing you chose not to know") but otherwise okay whatever she wants to say.

Homura would be the last person to witchbomb Mami. She was there when Tetris happened. We don't need to warn her.

On the contrary: if Homura doesn't drop the witchbomb here, I will push as hard as I possibly can to offer it to Mami -- and she'll take it. I have literally had a year and a half to think about this. When Mami learns about the loops, it is also time for the witchbomb, because the context added by the loops changes the situation of the witchbomb from "useless, extremely harmful" to "very harmful, extremely useful for things Mami wants."

There are a lot of reasons we get along so well with Mami, but one of the big ones is that we're (on the whole) pretty close to her as far as morality and our attitudes towards our friends. We (that is, Sabrina and Mami) freely give of ourselves on their behalves, because their happiness is our happiness and their pain is our pain.

What you're going to see in the next couple of updates is this horribly hurt girl who Mami will be discovering is... in many ways as important to her or more important to her, once upon a never, than Kyouko. Someone who she befriended and cared for, pushed and fought against. A friend that never really left her and is now standing before her in terrible pain.

I've read TDS. Multiple times. I've seen the look on Mami's face in this fucking panel --



-- where she decides that she's going to try to force Kyouko to stay, because --



-- she can't stand to just stand aside and watch Kyouko go off and resign herself to that.

Tomoe Mami wants three things: friends, their happiness, and a good setting (2).

If you pose her this --

"... This would hurt, a lot, but it would really help someone you care about who is deeply in pain."

-- she'd shoulder that burden almost every time.

And in unison with the loops, that's what the witchbomb is. It hurts, but it's also a key part of understanding Akemi Homura's past, and in being a key part of understanding Homura's past, it is also a key part of helping Homura, because the greatest thing Mami could feasibly do for Homura would be to learn Homura's entire story and then accept her. It would go above and beyond anything we've ever done for the girl, because at the end of the day, we can tell Homura that she didn't do anything wrong, and we can tell her that everything is okay, but we cannot truly absolve her from her guilt, because we are not among those Homura believes she has wronged.

... But Mami? Is.

... Witchbomb's not a pointless harm anymore, and to be frank? Hiding that fact would just be wrong. If Mami were to respond in the negative to that offer -- that factual offer, of a way to massively help Homura at a cost to herself -- then I'd accept that, because it would mean I would be wrong... and there would be no cost to it.

... The thing is, I do not know when the optimal time to pursue that will be.

I don't want to do it immediately, because we all agree that we should let Homura tell the story in her own way and this would get in the way of that.

I'd absolutely like to interject with the offer if Homura ends up, say, indecisive as to whether or not to include the witchbomb.

I'd absolutely like to make the offer as soon as reasonable after the story... but preferably without undermining anything. And that is, I think, an extremely strong motive to include a break quite quickly after Homura's story is told -- especially because whether or not the witchbomb is on the table should have a vast impact on what we would have to say about our part in all of this.

So, here's what I'm going to vote.

[X] Let Homura tell it her way.
-[X] Give her whatever support she needs to be able to tell it HER way. Support her unreservedly, help her get through the rough bits, deploy whatever hugs are necessary. Being able to share this should help her a lot.
-[X] If Homura chooses to make herself out to be worse than you know she is at points, use subtlety to communicate to Mami that you don't agree with it while not interrupting the story.

[X] When Homura is done: let Mami ask questions, let things sink in, etcetera, then break.
 
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...

There are a lot of ways to make it clear to a third party that you don't fully agree with what someone is saying. You can use body language, words, telepathy (not IRL, sadly)... the list goes on. Oftentimes, it's enough to just grimace, shake your head slightly, or meet someone's eyes and pinch your face a little bit.

You don't have to start a fight with someone to do it -- well, unless they're being wrong on the internet :V

I think your dismissal of this is just wrong. Everything I've learned from everyone I've learned from in this thread -- sometimes @AuraTwilight, often any number of others -- indicates to me that Homura absolutely thinks of her actions in the past in vastly more negative terms than they deserve to be thought of. It doesn't have to be a big thing -- rather, it can be an extremely small thing -- but I think we should definitely include something that works towards not allowing Homura to shoot herself in the foot without giving any indication that we disagree with what she's saying.





On the contrary: if Homura doesn't drop the witchbomb here, I will push as hard as I possibly can to offer it to Mami -- and she'll take it. I have literally had a year and a half to think about this. When Mami learns about the loops, it is also time for the witchbomb, because the context added by the loops changes the situation of the witchbomb from "useless, extremely harmful" to "very harmful, extremely useful for things Mami wants."

There are a lot of reasons we get along so well with Mami, but one of the big ones is that we're (on the whole) pretty close to her as far as morality and our attitudes towards our friends. We (that is, Sabrina and Mami) freely give of ourselves on their behalves, because their happiness is our happiness and their pain is our pain.

What you're going to see in the next couple of updates is this horribly hurt girl who Mami will be discovering is... in many ways as important to her or more important to her, once upon a never, than Kyouko. Someone who she befriended and cared for, pushed and fought against. A friend that never really left her and is now standing before her in terrible pain.

I've read TDS. Multiple times. I've seen the look on Mami's face in this fucking panel --



-- where she decides that she's going to try to force Kyouko to stay, because --



-- she can't stand to just stand aside and watch Kyouko go off and resign herself to that.

Tomoe Mami wants three things: friends, their happiness, and a good setting (2).

If you pose her this --

"... This would hurt, a lot, but it would really help someone you care about who is deeply in pain."

-- she'd shoulder that burden almost every time.

And in unison with the loops, that's what the witchbomb is. It hurts, but it's also a key part of understanding Akemi Homura's past, and in being a key part of understanding Homura's past, it is also a key part of helping Homura, because the greatest thing Mami could feasibly do for Homura would be to learn Homura's entire story and then accept her. It would go above and beyond anything we've ever done for the girl, because at the end of the day, we can tell Homura that she didn't do anything wrong, and we can tell her that everything is okay, but we cannot truly absolve her from her guilt, because we are not among those Homura believes she has wronged.

... But Mami? Is.

... Witchbomb's not a pointless harm anymore, and to be frank? Hiding that fact would just be wrong. If Mami were to respond in the negative to that offer -- that factual offer, of a way to massively help Homura at a cost to herself -- then I'd accept that, because it would mean I would be wrong... and there would be no cost to it.

... The thing is, I do not know when the optimal time to pursue that will be.

I don't want to do it immediately, because we all agree that we should let Homura tell the story in her own way and this would get in the way of that.

I'd absolutely like to interject with the offer if Homura ends up, say, indecisive as to whether or not to include the witchbomb.

I'd absolutely like to make the offer as soon as reasonable after the story... but preferably without undermining anything. And that is, I think, an extremely strong motive to include a break quite quickly after Homura's story is told -- especially because whether or not the witchbomb is on the table should have a vast impact on what we would have to say about our part in all of this.

So, here's what I'm going to vote for the moment.

[X] Let Homura tell it her way.
-[X] Give her whatever support she needs to be able to tell it HER way. Support her unreservedly, help her get through the rough bits, deploy whatever hugs are necessary. Being able to share this should help her a lot.
-[X] If Homura chooses to make herself out to be worse than you know she is at points, use subtlety to communicate to Mami that you don't agree with it while not interrupting the story.

[X] When Homura is done: let Mami ask questions, let things sink in, etcetera, then break.
i have to worry about mami and the witchbomb, not just because of, you know. but because it will hurt her, it will break her in ways i cant begin to imagine even if i can sort of think about it. because she was manipulated by the incubators for so long, she convinced other girls to join the system thinking that she and others like her were heroes or at least helping people, to learn that it was for nothing, that they turn to monsters, that her students and friends have turned into suicidal monsters, that she has likely unknowingly killed them? it would destroy her. even if she doesnt shatter like she did in the anime.
wr shouldnt force or presure her into asking for it, because yeah it will come at great cost to herself, and we shouldnt make her hurt herself to help another, it isnt right when madoka does it. it isnt right when sayaka does it, or when homura does it. it wouldnt be right if mami did it
it shouldnt be framed as "even if it hurts you, homura will feel better for it" because i know mami and i know that if it was put that way she would accept it. and she doesnt deserve that.
we should work on disarming that bomb, but this isnt the way, now isnt the time. its still to soon for that
 
i have to worry about mami and the witchbomb, not just because of, you know. but because it will hurt her, it will break her in ways i cant begin to imagine even if i can sort of think about it. because she was manipulated by the incubators for so long, she convinced other girls to join the system thinking that she and others like her were heroes or at least helping people, to learn that it was for nothing, that they turn to monsters, that her students and friends have turned into suicidal monsters, that she has likely unknowingly killed them? it would destroy her. even if she doesnt shatter like she did in the anime.

There's only so many things I can say to this beyond what we'd say to her.

"We're going to fix this. All of it."

It is, after all, the only way we really live with ourselves.

Absent it, you'd be absolutely right.

Absent it, I'd never push for any of this.

Absent it, I'd probably be arguing for a memory alteration field or something.

But Mami's always been astounding in a fight with a clear goal and an obvious villain.
 
...

There are a lot of ways to make it clear to a third party that you don't fully agree with what someone is saying. You can use body language, words, telepathy (not IRL, sadly)... the list goes on. Oftentimes, it's enough to just grimace, shake your head slightly, or meet someone's eyes and pinch your face a little bit.

You don't have to start a fight with someone to do it -- well, unless they're being wrong on the internet :V

I think your dismissal of this is just wrong. Everything I've learned from everyone I've learned from in this thread -- sometimes @AuraTwilight, often any number of others -- indicates to me that Homura absolutely thinks of her actions in the past in vastly more negative terms than they deserve to be thought of. It doesn't have to be a big thing -- rather, it can be an extremely small thing -- but I think we should definitely include something that works towards not allowing Homura to shoot herself in the foot without giving any indication that we disagree with what she's saying.





On the contrary: if Homura doesn't drop the witchbomb here, I will push as hard as I possibly can to offer it to Mami -- and she'll take it. I have literally had a year and a half to think about this. When Mami learns about the loops, it is also time for the witchbomb, because the context added by the loops changes the situation of the witchbomb from "useless, extremely harmful" to "very harmful, extremely useful for things Mami wants."

There are a lot of reasons we get along so well with Mami, but one of the big ones is that we're (on the whole) pretty close to her as far as morality and our attitudes towards our friends. We (that is, Sabrina and Mami) freely give of ourselves on their behalves, because their happiness is our happiness and their pain is our pain.

What you're going to see in the next couple of updates is this horribly hurt girl who Mami will be discovering is... in many ways as important to her or more important to her, once upon a never, than Kyouko. Someone who she befriended and cared for, pushed and fought against. A friend that never really left her and is now standing before her in terrible pain.

I've read TDS. Multiple times. I've seen the look on Mami's face in this fucking panel --



-- where she decides that she's going to try to force Kyouko to stay, because --



-- she can't stand to just stand aside and watch Kyouko go off and resign herself to that.

Tomoe Mami wants three things: friends, their happiness, and a good setting (2).

If you pose her this --

"... This would hurt, a lot, but it would really help someone you care about who is deeply in pain."

-- she'd shoulder that burden almost every time.

And in unison with the loops, that's what the witchbomb is. It hurts, but it's also a key part of understanding Akemi Homura's past, and in being a key part of understanding Homura's past, it is also a key part of helping Homura, because the greatest thing Mami could feasibly do for Homura would be to learn Homura's entire story and then accept her. It would go above and beyond anything we've ever done for the girl, because at the end of the day, we can tell Homura that she didn't do anything wrong, and we can tell her that everything is okay, but we cannot truly absolve her from her guilt, because we are not among those Homura believes she has wronged.

... But Mami? Is.

... Witchbomb's not a pointless harm anymore, and to be frank? Hiding that fact would just be wrong. If Mami were to respond in the negative to that offer -- that factual offer, of a way to massively help Homura at a cost to herself -- then I'd accept that, because it would mean I would be wrong... and there would be no cost to it.

... The thing is, I do not know when the optimal time to pursue that will be.

I don't want to do it immediately, because we all agree that we should let Homura tell the story in her own way and this would get in the way of that.

I'd absolutely like to interject with the offer if Homura ends up, say, indecisive as to whether or not to include the witchbomb.

I'd absolutely like to make the offer as soon as reasonable after the story... but preferably without undermining anything. And that is, I think, an extremely strong motive to include a break quite quickly after Homura's story is told -- especially because whether or not the witchbomb is on the table should have a vast impact on what we would have to say about our part in all of this.

So, here's what I'm going to vote.

[X] Let Homura tell it her way.
-[X] Give her whatever support she needs to be able to tell it HER way. Support her unreservedly, help her get through the rough bits, deploy whatever hugs are necessary. Being able to share this should help her a lot.
-[X] If Homura chooses to make herself out to be worse than you know she is at points, use subtlety to communicate to Mami that you don't agree with it while not interrupting the story.

[X] When Homura is done: let Mami ask questions, let things sink in, etcetera, then break.

... Hold on a minute. I'm forgetting like half the argument here. Ugh.

@Vebyast, @Godwinson, we came to some conclusions regarding what was likely to happen around the endgame after firn made... Eh...

TDS is canon to PMAS. And, well expecting consistency over optimization from Kyuubey... would not be wise.

Also, I forgot to comment on this:

which is great! Got a chuckle out of me.

That post, right? I'm not crazy when I think we all kind of agreed on that?

... I'm goin to bed tho. Tomorrow.
 
"OK, OK!" you say, raising both hands defensively. "Sheesh, mom."

"I'm too young to be a teenage mother!" Madoka wails.

Sayaka snickers, patting Madoka on the shoulder. "Y'know, I can kind of see it."

"Noooooo," Madoka moans, pouting and squirming away from Sayaka.

lol Madoka's our mom

It takes a minute before Homura stirs again. Her attention flickers from you to Mami, and then back again.

She holds her hand out to you and Mami, palm up.

"Mami," she whispers. "You should know. If you want to."

I- holy fuck.

Holy fuck. Holy fucking shit HolY FUCK!

Praise Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Vishnu, Haruhi, Odin, and Pelor! Praise Madokami in the highest, may She reign eternal! And praise Homura, Sabrina's fucking mom! Oh, the minute I got done reading this I was dancing around the room! Hahahahaha!

Anyway, I'll be voting for

[X] Kaizuki

because the catgirl's arguments look good to me. I'm... wary of offering the witchbomb to Mami (and ain't that the understatement of the millennium) but this vote doesn't actually do that right now.
 
I think your dismissal of this is just wrong. Everything I've learned from everyone I've learned from in this thread -- sometimes @AuraTwilight, often any number of others -- indicates to me that Homura absolutely thinks of her actions in the past in vastly more negative terms than they deserve to be thought of. It doesn't have to be a big thing -- rather, it can be an extremely small thing -- but I think we should definitely include something that works towards not allowing Homura to shoot herself in the foot without giving any indication that we disagree with what she's saying.
Your vote was the wrong way to do it. You were going to start a fight.

I honestly don't think that we're going to run into anything like this at all. We've talked to Homura about this enough that even if she does say something she'll already know what we're going to say before we say it. Mami will be right behind us.

I think that we have already made it clear to Mami that Homura has the best of intentions and is simply hurting badly. I think that she already understands that Homura thinks worse of herself than she should. And we know what Mami's reaction to that is: She sees it from us all the time. Think back to when we took out Rionna, and were worried about things. Everyone, including Mami, told us that we did the right thing and we should stop worrying about it. Mami's not going to hesitate to tell Homura that she's being too harsh on herself.
"... This would hurt, a lot, but it would really help someone you care about who is deeply in pain."

-- she'd shoulder that burden almost every time.

And in unison with the loops, that's what the witchbomb is. It hurts, but it's also a key part of understanding Akemi Homura's past, and in being a key part of understanding Homura's past, it is also a key part of helping Homura, because the greatest thing Mami could feasibly do for Homura would be to learn Homura's entire story and then accept her. It would go above and beyond anything we've ever done for the girl, because at the end of the day, we can tell Homura that she didn't do anything wrong, and we can tell her that everything is okay, but we cannot truly absolve her from her guilt, because we are not among those Homura believes she has wronged.

... But Mami? Is.

... Witchbomb's not a pointless harm anymore, and to be frank? Hiding that fact would just be wrong. If Mami were to respond in the negative to that offer -- that factual offer, of a way to massively help Homura at a cost to herself -- then I'd accept that, because it would mean I would be wrong... and there would be no cost to it.

... The thing is, I do not know when the optimal time to pursue that will be.
Please, please find a way to write that doesn't involve so many fucking ellipses and questions and emotion. Reading your posts is painful. You're just jamming on the EMOTION EMOTION EMOTION EMOTION button all the fucking time and it makes everything so hard to handle. Learn some variation. Use your emotion sparingly, to emphasize the things that really matter, instead of pinning the meter in the opening paragraph and continuing for a thousand words. State your damn thesis instead of vomiting a tornado of hyped-up rhetorical questions and demanding that we figure out what you're trying to say through the clouds of traumatized empathy. You were doing perfectly fine right up to the point where you should have written the single-sentence core of your argument but then you went "hold on, actually, it'd be so much better to present this the form of interpretive dance!" and your post went to shit.

I don't want to do it immediately, because we all agree that we should let Homura tell the story in her own way and this would get in the way of that.

I'd absolutely like to interject with the offer if Homura ends up, say, indecisive as to whether or not to include the witchbomb.

There are a lot of reasons we get along so well with Mami, but one of the big ones is that we're (on the whole) pretty close to her as far as morality and our attitudes towards our friends. We (that is, Sabrina and Mami) freely give of ourselves on their behalves, because their happiness is our happiness and their pain is our pain.

What you're going to see in the next couple of updates is this horribly hurt girl who Mami will be discovering is... in many ways as important to her or more important to her, once upon a never, than Kyouko. Someone who she befriended and cared for, pushed and fought against. A friend that never really left her and is now standing before her in terrible pain.

I've read TDS. Multiple times. I've seen the look on Mami's face in this fucking panel --



-- where she decides that she's going to try to force Kyouko to stay, because --



-- she can't stand to just stand aside and watch Kyouko go off and resign herself to that.

Tomoe Mami wants three things: friends, their happiness, and a good setting (2).

If you pose her this --

"... This would hurt, a lot, but it would really help someone you care about who is deeply in pain."

-- she'd shoulder that burden almost every time.

And in unison with the loops, that's what the witchbomb is. It hurts, but it's also a key part of understanding Akemi Homura's past, and in being a key part of understanding Homura's past, it is also a key part of helping Homura, because the greatest thing Mami could feasibly do for Homura would be to learn Homura's entire story and then accept her. It would go above and beyond anything we've ever done for the girl, because at the end of the day, we can tell Homura that she didn't do anything wrong, and we can tell her that everything is okay, but we cannot truly absolve her from her guilt, because we are not among those Homura believes she has wronged.

... But Mami? Is.

... Witchbomb's not a pointless harm anymore, and to be frank? Hiding that fact would just be wrong. If Mami were to respond in the negative to that offer -- that factual offer, of a way to massively help Homura at a cost to herself -- then I'd accept that, because it would mean I would be wrong... and there would be no cost to it.

... The thing is, I do not know when the optimal time to pursue that will be.

I don't want to do it immediately, because we all agree that we should let Homura tell the story in her own way and this would get in the way of that.

I'd absolutely like to interject with the offer if Homura ends up, say, indecisive as to whether or not to include the witchbomb.

I'd absolutely like to make the offer as soon as reasonable after the story... but preferably without underminiPlease, please find a way to write that doesn't involve so many fucking ellipses and questions and emotion. Reading your posts is painful. You're just jamming on the EMOTION EMOTION EMOTION EMOTION button all the fucking time and it makes everything so hard to handle. Learn some variation. Use your emotion sparingly, to emphasize the things that really matter, instead of pinning the meter in the opening paragraph and continuing for a thousand words. State your damn thesis instead of vomiting a tornado of hyped-up rhetorical questions and demanding that we figure out what you're trying to say through the clouds of traumatized empathy. You were doing perfectly fine right up to the point where you should have written the single-sentence core of your argument but then you went "hold on, actually, it'd be so much better to present this the form of interpretive dance!" and your post went to shit.ng anything. And that is, I think, an extremely strong motive to include a break quite quickly after Homura's story is told -- especially because whether or not the witchbomb is on the table should have a vast impact on what we would have to say about our part in all of this.

So, here's what I'm going to vote.
So let's get this out of the way first: Even attempting to read this post was painful. You're just jamming on the EMOTION EMOTION EMOTION EMOTION button all the fucking time and it makes everything so hard to handle. Variation is informative and interesting. Varying the tension and narrative intensity of your essay will make it more readable and more informative. Use it sparingly to emphasize only those things that really matter. And, as I have requested repeatedly, state your damn thesis instead of vomiting a raw tornado of charged rhetorical questions at us. You were doing perfectly fine right up to the point where you should have written the single-sentence core of your argument but then you went "hold on, actually, it'd be so much better to present this the form of interpretive trauma!" and your post went to shit. But between the emotional miasma and the stream of broken thoughts and the absence of any large-scale structure or organization I feel like I'm trying to find your argument by sifting a swamp.

So, to make my best guess: I think that you are trying to argue that it would be totally okay if Homura witchbombed Mami in the middle of this conversation. That was literally all I could find. Is that what you are trying to say?

If that is what you're trying to say, why? What do you think Mami will do? What do you think Homura will do? What would we do to help Mami? What possible things could Mami say that we would have a hard time dealing with? Would it be worth disrupting Homura's attempt to share her life story? Why do you think it's worth spending the time to do it now? How long do you think Mami would take to recover? Why is doing it now better than doing it later?

If that's not what you're trying to say, what are you trying to say? Like, I hate to tell you this because I know it's a shit format and inappropriate for real work, but this is exactly where a five-paragraph essay might help you organize and present your thoughts. What is your hook? What is your thesis statement? What are your three pieces of supporting evidence or three stages of developing your idea? How do you restate each piece of support in the conclusion? What is your concluding sentence?

Oh, and use the a tag like [bimg=300px]url[/bimg] to make your images take up less than the entire damn screen four times over. This is what your post looks like to me:

[X] When Homura is done: let Mami ask questions, let things sink in, etcetera, then break.
Literally the only thing we have to do other than help Homura tell the story is explain our part in it. Mami has been hurt badly by our metaknowledge before and this will raise more questions about it. It is such an obvious course of events that the defaults directly prompt us to handle it. Your vote does not handle it. You need to address that.
 
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So let's get this out of the way first: Even attempting to read this post was painful. You're just jamming on the EMOTION EMOTION EMOTION EMOTION button all the fucking time and it makes everything so hard to handle. Variation is informative and interesting. Varying the tension and narrative intensity of your essay will make it more readable and more informative. Use it sparingly to emphasize only those things that really matter.

I'll be honest, I spent a minute or two trying to decide how to respond to this, writing and deleting lines in the interest of saying what I mean to say without being cruel. And I'm still basically just a fucking lurker, so you're free to take my judgement and tell me to shove it up my ass, but when I see you acting in a way that seems so obviously condescending and vitriolic, it's hard for me not to be cruel in return.

So let me be blunt: you think that the ideas @Kaizuki presented in their post are bad and disruptive and foot-in-mouth nonsense, so it's almost impossible for me to imagine that you actually wanted Kaizuki to demonstrate them more persuasively and legibly to the thread. You are not their teacher or their mentor. Your attempt to educate them in elementary writing concepts is extremely patronizing and very difficult to take constructively when you're telegraphing such total contempt and dismissal.

If you're just fed up with Kaizuki from the ongoing tone and style of their posts, I seriously question what the fuck you think you're doing, tearing their rhetoric apart at every opportunity. I sincerely doubt you actually believe that this time Kaizuki will internalize what you're saying to them, as opposed to every other time you've tried to berate them into shape.

And, as I have requested repeatedly, state your damn thesis instead of vomiting a raw tornado of charged rhetorical questions at us. You were doing perfectly fine right up to the point where you should have written the single-sentence core of your argument but then you went "hold on, actually, it'd be so much better to present this the form of interpretive trauma!" and your post went to shit. But between the emotional miasma and the stream of broken thoughts and the absence of any large-scale structure or organization I feel like I'm trying to find your argument by sifting a swamp.

The thesis of their post was "When Mami learns about the loops, it is also time for the witchbomb, because the context added by the loops changes the situation of the witchbomb from 'useless, extremely harmful' to 'very harmful, extremely useful for things Mami wants.'" After presenting their thesis, they went on to break it down, and explain how Mami might want to know the witchbomb in order to help Homura.

I'm certainly not sure I agree with their arguments -- the witchbomb is a huge thing to drop on Mami, let alone at around the same time as the loopbomb, and in this context it puts her in a position of needing to do an almost unfathomable amount of emotional labor -- but their post was perfectly comprehensible to me.

Like, what the fuck 'charged rhetorical questions' are you talking about? I see two question marks in their post, which don't even do any heavy persuasive lifting, and would read almost exactly the same if they were replaced with a comma or a space. They use evidence from TDS to illustrate and support their argument -- that Mami is able and willing to do extreme labor to support her friends and loved ones, emotional or otherwise -- rather than spinning entirely hypothetical and rhetorical assertions.

So, to make my best guess: I think that you are trying to argue that it would be totally okay if Homura witchbombed Mami in the middle of this conversation. That was literally all I could find. Is that what you are trying to say?

If that is what you're trying to say, why? What do you think Mami will do? What do you think Homura will do? What would we do to help Mami? What possible things could Mami say that we would have a hard time dealing with? Would it be worth disrupting Homura's attempt to share her life story? Why do you think it's worth spending the time to do it now? How long do you think Mami would take to recover? Why is doing it now better than doing it later?

Well, Kaizuki explicitly says "I do not know when the optimal time to pursue [this] will be," and "I don't want to do it immediately, because we all agree that we should let Homura tell the story in her own way and this would get in the way of that," so it's obviously not about making Homura witchbomb Mami, or about disrupting Homura's attempt to share her life story.

They clearly explained why they thought it was worth spending the time to witchbomb Mami at around this point: because they thought it would allow Mami to give Homura a kind of forgiveness and absolution for her actions that she's never had before. They also explained that why doing it now might be better than doing it later: because right now, Mami is getting a window into Homura's life story, and knowing the Witchbomb would allow her to do a lot of immediate (albeit abstract) good in that context, and if we put it off until later, she might in good conscience wish she was able to do it sooner. Mami might in good conscience wish she had known all of the facts sooner, so that she could reach out to Homura sooner.

Again, I don't think I agree with their arguments, but your angle of attack is unconscionable. You have no grounds to be upset with them for asking 'vomiting rhetorical questions' when you go on to ask Kaizuki a veritable gish gallop of questions that serve less to solicit answers and more to express contempt at the idea that they might have any answers to give you. Many of the questions you asked had clear answers in Kaizuki's post. Many of the other questions were your own 'charged rhetorical questions' obviously meant to imply that Kaizuki's ideas would have a traumatic fallout: that Mami and Homura would react badly, that we wouldn't be able to help Mami or deal with her reaction to the witchbomb, and that it would take Mami a long time to recover.

If you don't like rhetorical questions, and you think all of those things are true, then come out and say them openly.

Stop acting like you're correcting a blight or an eyesore upon the thread, because you're really not. You're not just teaching someone how to argue, or asking them to put in the labor to write posts clearly and constructively. You're bullying someone into putting in the labor to write posts in a way that don't offend your rhetorical sensibilities.
 
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I still find Kaizuki's posts perfectly readable and comprehensible, that has yet to change.

While I think we should definitely consider dropping the witchbomb sooner rather than later, especially in light prof what Homura May reveal in the course of giving up the loopbomb, I think that unless there's a pressing needed, we shouldn't do it right now.

Give it a day or two at least. Maybe more.
 
[X] Immediately upon timestop, ask Homura to let you pre-amble. Establish some setting - facts about Souls, and why our metaknowledge lets us call Homura and Madoka our moms. It is meant to regulate Mami's rumination.
[X] Let Homura tell it her way
-[X] Support, using non-verbal cues when possible. Teach Mami the "listen - listen more - autocomplete - ask" formula if needed. Improve her Homurese, using our bond.
-[X] If needed, keep Homura's momentum with her in the rough moments.
-[X] Mami has tons of empathy, and Homura has tons of backstory. Moderate the reaction, so Homura can get all the way through it.
-[X] When Homura is done: let Mami ask questions, let things sink in, etcetera.
-[X] If, at the end it hasn't come up, mention how much influence Mami has over her heroic kouhai.
[X] Tell more about yourself when she's finished. Then break.
[X] Vote in abeyance
 
...

There are a lot of ways to make it clear to a third party that you don't fully agree with what someone is saying. You can use body language, words, telepathy (not IRL, sadly)... the list goes on. Oftentimes, it's enough to just grimace, shake your head slightly, or meet someone's eyes and pinch your face a little bit.

You don't have to start a fight with someone to do it -- well, unless they're being wrong on the internet :V

I think your dismissal of this is just wrong. Everything I've learned from everyone I've learned from in this thread -- sometimes @AuraTwilight, often any number of others -- indicates to me that Homura absolutely thinks of her actions in the past in vastly more negative terms than they deserve to be thought of. It doesn't have to be a big thing -- rather, it can be an extremely small thing -- but I think we should definitely include something that works towards not allowing Homura to shoot herself in the foot without giving any indication that we disagree with what she's saying.





On the contrary: if Homura doesn't drop the witchbomb here, I will push as hard as I possibly can to offer it to Mami -- and she'll take it. I have literally had a year and a half to think about this. When Mami learns about the loops, it is also time for the witchbomb, because the context added by the loops changes the situation of the witchbomb from "useless, extremely harmful" to "very harmful, extremely useful for things Mami wants."

There are a lot of reasons we get along so well with Mami, but one of the big ones is that we're (on the whole) pretty close to her as far as morality and our attitudes towards our friends. We (that is, Sabrina and Mami) freely give of ourselves on their behalves, because their happiness is our happiness and their pain is our pain.

What you're going to see in the next couple of updates is this horribly hurt girl who Mami will be discovering is... in many ways as important to her or more important to her, once upon a never, than Kyouko. Someone who she befriended and cared for, pushed and fought against. A friend that never really left her and is now standing before her in terrible pain.

I've read TDS. Multiple times. I've seen the look on Mami's face in this fucking panel --



-- where she decides that she's going to try to force Kyouko to stay, because --



-- she can't stand to just stand aside and watch Kyouko go off and resign herself to that.

Tomoe Mami wants three things: friends, their happiness, and a good setting (2).

If you pose her this --

"... This would hurt, a lot, but it would really help someone you care about who is deeply in pain."

-- she'd shoulder that burden almost every time.

And in unison with the loops, that's what the witchbomb is. It hurts, but it's also a key part of understanding Akemi Homura's past, and in being a key part of understanding Homura's past, it is also a key part of helping Homura, because the greatest thing Mami could feasibly do for Homura would be to learn Homura's entire story and then accept her. It would go above and beyond anything we've ever done for the girl, because at the end of the day, we can tell Homura that she didn't do anything wrong, and we can tell her that everything is okay, but we cannot truly absolve her from her guilt, because we are not among those Homura believes she has wronged.

... But Mami? Is.

... Witchbomb's not a pointless harm anymore, and to be frank? Hiding that fact would just be wrong. If Mami were to respond in the negative to that offer -- that factual offer, of a way to massively help Homura at a cost to herself -- then I'd accept that, because it would mean I would be wrong... and there would be no cost to it.

... The thing is, I do not know when the optimal time to pursue that will be.

I don't want to do it immediately, because we all agree that we should let Homura tell the story in her own way and this would get in the way of that.

I'd absolutely like to interject with the offer if Homura ends up, say, indecisive as to whether or not to include the witchbomb.

I'd absolutely like to make the offer as soon as reasonable after the story... but preferably without undermining anything. And that is, I think, an extremely strong motive to include a break quite quickly after Homura's story is told -- especially because whether or not the witchbomb is on the table should have a vast impact on what we would have to say about our part in all of this.

So, here's what I'm going to vote.

[X] Let Homura tell it her way.
-[X] Give her whatever support she needs to be able to tell it HER way. Support her unreservedly, help her get through the rough bits, deploy whatever hugs are necessary. Being able to share this should help her a lot.
-[X] If Homura chooses to make herself out to be worse than you know she is at points, use subtlety to communicate to Mami that you don't agree with it while not interrupting the story.

[X] When Homura is done: let Mami ask questions, let things sink in, etcetera, then break.

I'm 100% in agreement with this entire analysis, and want to add on that if Homura is coming THIS far to share THIS much with Mami, that's a very, very clear signal that HOMURA is hoping Mami is ready for things.

And without the Witchbomb, Mami isn't going to properly understand the Loops in a way that will allow her to properly help and understand Homura. And Mami has made it clear several times that at this point, at THIS POINT, she has ABSOLUTE FAITH in us. We're not going to get a repeat of the Lichbomb where she freaked out and doubted us as a trustworthy actor; she KNOWS we're hiding this for her sake and she deliberately chose to hold off on this secret.

But now?

NOW? With what Homura is laying here? Kaizuki is right. There's two canon cases where Mami can handle the Witchbomb. Oriko Magica, and Magia Record.

Those cases are:
1) Mami is Witchbombed, Yuma peptalks her into holding off on internalizing self destruction because innocent people need her help RIGHT NOW, and

2) Mami devotes her heart and soul entirely to the point of cult mania to a cause that has legitimate promise of ending Witching Out forever, and the downsides of that mania were induced by Actual Literal Brainwashing and thus aren't on the table as a concern for us.

Mami can survive the Witchbomb if we explain how we intend to fix it, and if she knows that the bomb has been tormenting Homura for over a decade. If there's any downside I'm worried about, right now, it's that Mami might limpet on us again and become more workaholic on Dewitching-related subjects.

"Hey Mami what do you want to do today? We could go see a movie--"
"Dewitching research."
"That's... Yea okay but we haven't done anything else in like a week."

[x] Kaizuki
 
... Hold on a minute. I'm forgetting like half the argument here. Ugh.

@Vebyast, @Godwinson, we came to some conclusions regarding what was likely to happen around the endgame after firn made... Eh...



That post, right? I'm not crazy when I think we all kind of agreed on that?

... I'm goin to bed tho. Tomorrow.

So!

Now, I have to apologize for not having included this off the bat. My memory isn't perfect (and has been godawful the last few years due to illness) and one of the things I do to compensate is that I focus on remembering conclusions instead of what lead me to them. That makes it a lot easier to remember what I'm supposed to argue for, but not so much the how or the why.

So I have to thank @soulsguardian here, because their posting got me thinking about the holes in what I'd posted -- yeah, if we make the offer to Mami she'll accept it, and yeah, if she accepts it it will help Homura a ton, and yeah, Mami is much more stable than she's ever been, and yeah, she's got a lot of fight in her and at this point I genuinely believe she can handle this, but why the fuck are we doing it now instead of, as they suggested,

we should work on disarming that bomb, but this isnt the way, now isnt the time. its still to soon for that

and why on Earth am I voting to do something that will hurt Mami? Even if she'd want it? Why have I decided that here and now is the best opportunity we will get for this?

There are two reasons.

The first one is that as much as I damn well wish we could "work on disarming that bomb," the truth of the matter is that there is no way to do so. The potentialbomb can be worked around by trying to get Homura in a better mindset. But with Mami and the witchbomb, what can we do?

The only option we have as far as softening the blow for Mami would be to look after her various former students, whatever their current status -- and the thing is, I see little to no difference between doing that beforehand and doing it afterwards. What difference is there between telling her that we already did it, and telling her that we're gonna do it? The end results, whatever they may be, will not change -- only the method, because in the latter case she can be personally included in making sure they're alright. Absolution works better that way, honestly, and as I've said, Mami does well in clear-cut fights, physical, magical or otherwise.





... The second, vastly more important reason is that we are on a deadline.

To be totally honest, I would love nothing more than to just take question of Mami and the witchbomb and shove it out of the quest.

We really can't.

This following post was, if you will all please recall, in response to my pointing out that Kyouko's dad was never mindwiped by Kyubey after he developed a conveniently negative mindset towards his daughter:

TDS is canon to PMAS. And, well expecting consistency over optimization from Kyuubey... would not be wise.

Also, I forgot to comment on this:

which is great! Got a chuckle out of me.

If you follow the link through on that all the relevant stuff is within a page or two so I won't quote it all, but I'll drop a reminder TL;DR that Kyubey basically chose to break what we consider his own "rules" because it gave him a convenient way to screw Kyouko, and he wanted to screw Kyouko just because he wanted her to witch.

And then Firn posted that.

...

Please consider several items. Firnagzen's repeated mention of the difficulty of the quest. Firn's warning that expecting quote consistency over optimization close quote from Kyubey is a bad idea. Oriko's warning that Kyubey will move on the potentialbomb a few days before Walpurgisnacht. Kyubey's undoubtedly rabid desire to see us broken and defeated.

Discard any notions you may be holding about what will or will not happen due to mercy. Kyubey will not withhold bombs out of mercy. It will not shy from playing useful cards, whatever they may be. This is essentially word of god.

The Iowa Group has already been noted to use the witchbomb as a weapon.

Kyubey will not withhold bombs out of mercy.

Kyubey is demonstrably willing to go after people to drop bombs, as shown by Oriko's warning regarding the potentialbomb.

Mami is exceptionally vulnerable to the witchbomb.

... We thought a lot of possible things were impossible and impossible things possible, once upon a never. We thought Mami would never be happy. We thought Homura would never understand our keeping Oriko alive. We thought, I will tell you now, that the witchbomb could be kept from Mami.

It really can't be.

That, is the other half of this argument. That this is not simply a good time to drop something we don't need to drop, but that this is the best chance we will get to drop a bomb which will be dropped for us at the worst possible moment if we do not deal with it.

Will it hurt?

Yes.

But better it have a purpose, better it be salved by that purpose, than literally any other alternative.

Regarding the vote. Vebyast is right about the fact that I need to rework my last line slightly. Here's the result.

[X] Let Homura tell it her way.
-[X] Give her whatever support she needs to be able to tell it HER way. Support her unreservedly, help her get through the rough bits, deploy whatever hugs are necessary. Being able to share this should help her a lot.
-[X] If Homura chooses to make herself out to be worse than you know she is at points, use subtlety to communicate to Mami that you don't agree with it while not interrupting the story.

[X] When Homura is done: pause slightly to let Mami ask questions / think before it's your turn to relate things, then break.
 
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Two points:
  1. We have previously told Mami that we would only witchbomb her if she wanted us to do so. Insisting on doing so despite this? Not a good thing.
  2. We don't know as of yet how much detail Homura is planning to go into in her explanation to Mami, so sparking a witchbomb shitstorm is premature at best.
Adhoc vote count started by Godwinson on May 27, 2019 at 10:58 PM, finished with 153270 posts and 34 votes.

  • [x] Let Homura tell it her way
    -[X] Give her whatever support she needs to be able to tell it HER way. Support her unreservedly, help her get through the rough bits, deploy whatever hugs are necessary. Being able to share this should help her a lot.
    -[X] If Homura chooses to make herself out to be worse than you know she is at points, use subtlety to communicate to Mami that you don't agree with it while not interrupting the story.
    [X] When Homura is done: pause slightly to let Mami ask questions / think / comment / react before it's your turn to relate things, then break.
    [x] Let Homura tell it her way
    -[X] Give her whatever support she needs to be able to tell it HER way. Support her unreservedly, help her get through the rough bits, deploy whatever hugs are necessary. Being able to share this should help her a lot.
    [X] Tell more about yourself when she's finished:
    -[X] This is why you talked about maybe not having a past: You're reasonably sure you were created as a result of Homura and Madoka, much less so the specifics. You have... several different ideas of how someone like you could be made, some nice, some harrowing. It's something you need to look into.
    -[X] You have far far more than that keeping you here now, (hold Mami's hand for emphasis).
    [x] Let Homura tell it her way
    [x] Let Homura tell it her way
    [x] Let Homura tell it her way
    -[X] Don't interrupt unless she asks you to provide details.
    -[X] If When she gets overwhelmed, Hug the Homu.
    [X] When she's finished
    -[X] Explain that you knew her story, same as you do Madoka's, Mami's and Sayaka's. Because it's their story, and now it's yours, too. You are here to help.
    [x] Let Homura tell it her way
    - [X] "So yeah we're maybe sort of the result of a wish. But we don't know much of the details or implications beyond that. It is how we knew everyone though."
    [x] Let Homura tell it her way
    -[X] Don't interrupt unless she asks you to provide details.
    -[X] If/ When she gets overwhelmed, Hug Homura.
    [X] Immediately upon timestop, ask Homura to let you pre-amble. Establish some setting - facts about Souls, and why our metaknowledge lets us call Homura and Madoka our moms. It is meant to regulate Mami's rumination.
    [x] Let Homura tell it her way
    -[X] Support, using non-verbal cues when possible. Teach Mami the "listen - listen more - autocomplete - ask" formula if needed. Improve her Homurese, using our bond.
    -[X] If needed, keep Homura's momentum with her in the rough moments.
    -[X] Mami has tons of empathy, and Homura has tons of backstory. Moderate the reaction, so Homura can get all the way through it.
    -[X] When Homura is done: let Mami ask questions, let things sink in, etcetera.
    -[X] If, at the end it hasn't come up, mention how much influence Mami has over her heroic kouhai.
    [X] Tell more about yourself when she's finished. Then break.
    [X] Vote in abeyance.
    [x] null
 
So, a quick clarification - you guys have got the scope of the vote more or less right. If you want to let Homura tell her story, then yeah, you can try to support her. Maybe come back to specific points if you want to. Giving her time to think and all that is automatic.

The Witchbomb... look, Homura knows better than to just drop it on Mami right out of the blue, and she can avoid the topic with relative ease, and she knows to look to you on something like this.. Don't forget that promise you made to Mami, too, about not telling her the Witchbomb if she agreed to it. You can ask, yes, and if you want to bring it up, then you know it's going to be a difficult slog. Even in the best of times, it's not an easy pill to swallow, especially for Mami. If you don't, if you want to find a better time, then just... don't. There will be opportunities to come.
 
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Two points:
  1. We have previously told Mami that we would only witchbomb her if she wanted us to do so. Insisting on doing so despite this? Not a good thing.
  2. We don't know as of yet how much detail Homura is planning to go into in her explanation to Mami, so sparking a witchbomb shitstorm is premature at best.

Insisting is wrong. We are not going to insist.

We are going to offer. The offer will be factual and will make note of the fact that it will help Homura immensely. It will also make note of the fact that it will hurt deeply to learn if she chooses to learn it.

I believe she will take the offer. I can believe that and still make the offer in genuinely good faith as an offer and not as a directive. I will believe that and still make the offer in genuinely good faith as an offer and not as a directive. If she declines I will accept her decision.

Please consider this post to take precedence over whatever else anyone may believe they have inferred from my writings, because this constitutes a basic moral prerogative and is overriding both for me and -- I should certainly hope -- for all of you.

Edit: thinking on it, I can see why someone might think that I was not fully intending to adhere to this based on my earlier posting. At this point I have come to consider this as something so completely axiomatic as to not need reiteration. Please understand that everything I post assumes this. We do not deny choice.
 
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Insisting is wrong. We are not going to insist.

We are going to offer. The offer will be factual and will make note of the fact that it will help Homura immensely. It will also make note of the fact that it will hurt deeply to learn if she chooses to learn it.

I believe she will take the offer. I can believe that and still make the offer in genuinely good faith as an offer and not as a directive. I will believe that and still make the offer in genuinely good faith as an offer and not as a directive. If she declines I will accept her decision.

Please consider this post to take precedence over whatever else anyone may believe they have inferred from my writings, because this constitutes a basic moral prerogative and is overriding both for me and -- I should certainly hope -- for all of you.

Edit: thinking on it, I can see why someone might think that I was not fully intending to adhere to this based on my earlier posting. At this point I have come to consider this as something so completely axiomatic as to not need reiteration. Please understand that everything I post assumes this. We do not deny choice.
*nods and headpats the catgirl*

Alright, I was just wanting to make sure, especially because people who haven't been reading the discussions here for the past few years might not be aware of that.

I might not agree with the timing of even looking to witchbomb Mami right now, because I'm pretty sure that Mami is going to have a rather emotional response to finding out yet another person knew of her before they even met her, and thus not be in a good place emotionally for a devastating blow to be added onto it.
Adhoc vote count started by Godwinson on May 27, 2019 at 3:44 PM, finished with 153249 posts and 34 votes.

  • [x] Let Homura tell it her way
    -[X] Give her whatever support she needs to be able to tell it HER way. Support her unreservedly, help her get through the rough bits, deploy whatever hugs are necessary. Being able to share this should help her a lot.
    -[X] If Homura chooses to make herself out to be worse than you know she is at points, use subtlety to communicate to Mami that you don't agree with it while not interrupting the story.
    [X] When Homura is done: pause slightly to let Mami ask questions / think before it's your turn to relate things, then break.
    [x] Let Homura tell it her way
    -[X] Give her whatever support she needs to be able to tell it HER way. Support her unreservedly, help her get through the rough bits, deploy whatever hugs are necessary. Being able to share this should help her a lot.
    [X] Tell more about yourself when she's finished:
    -[X] This is why you talked about maybe not having a past: You're reasonably sure you were created as a result of Homura and Madoka, much less so the specifics. You have... several different ideas of how someone like you could be made, some nice, some harrowing. It's something you need to look into.
    -[X] You have far far more than that keeping you here now, (hold Mami's hand for emphasis).
    [x] Let Homura tell it her way
    [x] Let Homura tell it her way
    -[X] Give her whatever support she needs to be able to tell it HER way. Support her unreservedly, help her get through the rough bits, deploy whatever hugs are necessary. Being able to share this should help her a lot.
    -[X] Tell more about yourself to when she's finished:
    --[X] This is why you talked about maybe not having a past: You're reasonably sure you were created as a result of Homura and Madoka, much less so the specifics. You have... several different ideas of how someone like you could be made, some nice, some harrowing. It's something you need to look into.
    --[x] You'd like to talk to Mami more if and when she's comfortable with that, and its mostly more context to what you said about having a purpose last night, but the second most important thing is the same as you said then: That while these things are part of you, they aren't what complete you. (Hold Mami's hand for emphasis.)
    --[x] The single most important thing is that you can now ask Mami if she wants to do a "permission to date your daughter skit" whenever it is that we finally come clean to Mado-kaa-san.
    [X] Addition to vote in abeyance:
    -[X] Ask Mami what her homework situation is like tonight while you work.
    [x] Let Homura tell it her way
    [x] Let Homura tell it her way
    -[X] Don't interrupt unless she asks you to provide details.
    -[X] If When she gets overwhelmed, Hug the Homu.
    [X] When she's finished
    -[X] Explain that you knew her story, same as you do Madoka's, Mami's and Sayaka's. Because it's their story, and now it's yours, too. You are here to help.
    [x] Let Homura tell it her way
    - [X] "So yeah we're maybe sort of the result of a wish. But we don't know much of the details or implications beyond that. It is how we knew everyone though."
    [x] Let Homura tell it her way
    -[X] Don't interrupt unless she asks you to provide details.
    -[X] If/ When she gets overwhelmed, Hug Homura.
    [X] Immediately upon timestop, ask Homura to let you pre-amble. Establish some setting - facts about Souls, and why our metaknowledge lets us call Homura and Madoka our moms. It is meant to regulate Mami's rumination.
    [x] Let Homura tell it her way
    -[X] Support, using non-verbal cues when possible. Teach Mami the "listen - listen more - autocomplete - ask" formula if needed. Improve her Homurese, using our bond.
    -[X] If needed, keep Homura's momentum with her in the rough moments.
    -[X] Mami has tons of empathy, and Homura has tons of backstory. Moderate the reaction, so Homura can get all the way through it.
    -[X] When Homura is done: let Mami ask questions, let things sink in, etcetera.
    -[X] If, at the end it hasn't come up, mention how much influence Mami has over her heroic kouhai.
    [X] Tell more about yourself when she's finished. Then break.
    [X] Vote in abeyance.
 
"Hey Mami what do you want to do today? We could go see a movie--"
"Dewitching research."
"That's... Yea okay but we haven't done anything else in like a week."
the idea of mami becoming an even bigger SCIENCE! freak than us is, terrifying to say the least
Kyubey will not withhold bombs out of mercy.
correction, kyuubi doesn't know mercy. its mind is alien to us and doesnt have a concept like good faith or mercy
If you don't, if you want to find a better time, then just... don't. There will be opportunities to come.
this is as good a reason as any, we dont need to do this, we have time and shouldnt run headlong into this or derail this conversation
 
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