"Homura, you don't need to be the one to protect Madoka physically. That's something that any powerful magical girl could do, especially with you helping. The thing you need to be the one to do, that you can do that no other person can, is protect Madoka emotionally. She has all these great friends, and she has a loving family, and despite all those she still has crippling self-esteem issues that consistently drive her to martyr herself. She simply doesn't think that she's worth being protected. And you are living proof that she is worth it. You are the only person that can convince her of that."
I mean, we know for a fact from a ton of PMMM materials that Madoka totally has a crush on Homura. We don't need to speculate, we know for a fact it's true.
...

More crazy ideas: Metaknowledge is an excuse for us to bring up almost literally anything. How confident are we that that is the case? Do we think that Madoka consciously realizes that she has a crush? Would it be safe to grab Madoka at some point and just tell her that Homura would be totally interested if she weren't so traumatized?
 
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again, the issue isn't ao much about whether madoka has a crush on homura as it is whether or not madoka is aware of said crush. I know from experience that it can be a while from developing a crush on someone to actually realizing that is what it is
 
I know from experience that it can be a while from developing a crush on someone to actually realizing that is what it is
And LGBT kids in particular can be very good at misinterpreting their feelings, because there's the added leap of accepting that those emotions are something you can experience in the first place.
Put Kirika in charge of asking around the US Servers
We've tried delegating IRC outreach to Kirika before, but she turned it down on the grounds that it would be terrible for Homura's paranoia.
 
We've tried delegating IRC outreach to Kirika before, but she turned it down on the grounds that it would be terrible for Homura's paranoia.

... is the reason she gave to us but we all know she's just a lazy bum who wants to cuddle Oriko and shitpost.

Mmm. I gotta ask, considering she's had a different Wish this time around that didn't play hell with her personality and mental stability, does it mean she avoids her parents because she dislikes them? As opposed to the Oriko Magica "Oriko is the only thing in the world I have my eyes on" Kirika.

Maybe asking Oriko is an option?
Inb4 she tells us to gtfo of her girlfriend's private life.

I just...
Kinda sad. As far as I know, at least, her parents didn't do anything particularly wrong.
Maybe they dissaprove of Kirika's eyepatch?
Or the fact that her Meguca suit on the whole is a genderswapped wedding tuxedo. But, she didn't even talk about that with them? That I know of.
:thonk:
 
You'll probably want to talk to the social clique ( @Kaizuki @AuraTwilight ) to confirm this, but iirc the correct answer is "entirely certain"?

There's a whole thing with the red ribbon of fate that Mami can see binding them in TDS, which represents destined love.

If I was Sabrina in a situation where it actually mattered I'd bet my life on there being something there, even if it's, like, entirely a carryover in the same way as Madoka's dreams... But I know jack shit about the particulars.

My preference ATM is to start a bunch of slippery slope initiatives around Homura and see what floats to the surface after a few days. I'm trying to write a post on that but I'm still working out the details of the arguments I'm going to make for them...

The tldr though is that the current paradigm we've got going around Homura IC isn't useful any longer and we want (certain) people to start looking at her instead of the old "let me handle it and don't ask questions." I figure we have (ourselves, maybe certain others) start poking with sticks, see what issues float to the top, gather information...

But yeah working on that post...
 
But yeah working on that post...
You're having trouble writing it because you're attempting to address every possible counterargument simultaneously. Don't do that. You're wasting all of your time on addressing things that don't matter. And past that, posting walls of text is bad because it means people will have trouble understanding what you've written, which just means you have to spend more time addressing every possible misunderstanding you might have caused with your hugepost.

Just Post. The. Goddamn. Argument.

If you really need to collect two thousand words of supporting evidence, that's an appendix or a followup, not the post or the argument itself.
 
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... Can we just work on getting Homura to spend more time with Madoka? Right now Homura basically views Madoka in something akin to hero worship. That, to me, makes things very pass or fail - no graduation between two extremes. Get Homura to spend time with Madoka and getting to know her NOW.

Get Homura to understand she is important now, not because she's trying to save a girl, not because of what she has done before but because you know she's just a good person and can have friends and people want to be her friend.

Basically take the whole thing with Sayaka, Mami and us being her friends and keep going.

Tl:dr - Homura you have friends, hangout with them and figure out you have friends
 
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In other news: Homura. I don't know if anyone has come up with any hypotheses better than "the potentialbomb means she's not helping and she won't have any reason to continue because we're here."
I think this is a pretty compelling reason. Combined with the fact that the timelines continue after she's gone, this is absolutely crushing. Not only did Homura cause one timeline's Madoka to become the most powerful witch ever (and presumably the most suffering one too, and either way an objectively worse fate than just dying like in the original timeline), but she did it to hundreds of Madokas. Because of her, hundreds of Madokas will suffer endlessly for the rest of however long a witch can live. Could be eternity, for all she knows. She absolutely loathed Oriko for the atrocity of killing Madoka once. And now she finds out that she herself did so much worse as to be incomparable to merely killing Madoka once? This means that Oriko was a thousand times more innocent than Homura could ever be after the 3rd loop, and actually helped Madoka by killing her instead of letting her witch. This makes Oriko a hero (more or less), and Homura some kind of Hitler type person (albeit unwilling, but I doubt Homura will care about that). There are many people who would gladly kill Hitler if they could meet him, and Homura has a personal connection to the person she's making suffer (plus already hates herself). The only thing she could possibly do would be to either kill herself or let her witch out.
Add to this that the timelines continuing means she can never save Madoka, only save one version of Madoka, and her wish is well and truly impossible to achieve. That alone is witchout material, even without the fact that it's all Homura's fault(from her perspective).


Of course, this assumes that Kyubey tells her about the timelines continuing after she jumps, and that they actually do. That was my impression from reading this thread, but even if they don't it's still pretty horrible even if Homura destroys the old timeline when she loops.
 
Umm
Understanding yourself is important, yeah, but didn't you mean something else?
Otherwise, I don't know what you mean? The previous paragraph doesn't connect with the next to me.
A good portion of Homura understanding herself would be vastly improved self-esteem, so I actually do think Homura understanding the Homura about covers it.
 
Not only did Homura cause one timeline's Madoka to become the most powerful witch ever (and presumably the most suffering one too,
I'll note - this is something that I suspect falls under "Everything" that is fixable.


So, summary sounds like: Madoka certainly has a crush but might not realize it consciously. Is it safe to hit her over the head with it? We almost certainly can't safely nudge Homura at Madoka, since Homura can't pursue it without feeling guilty about it, but nudging Madoka at Homura might be safe? Since it directly resolves some of Homura's underlying issues that obstruct the relationship from that side, and Homura wouldn't get to feel guilty about her own feelings if she's not taking any actions.
 
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So, summary sounds like: Madoka certainly has a crush but might not realize it consciously. Is it safe to hit her over the head with it? We almost certainly can't safely nudge Homura at Madoka, since Homura can't pursue it without feeling guilty about it, but nudging Madoka at Homura might be safe? Since it kind of inherently deals with some of the issues that obstruct the relationship from the other side.

Dunno. I'm currently living up to my username, and shadowrunning all sorts of nightmare scenarios; say, Madoka works up the courage to ask Homura out, Mom rejects her under the logic of "if she gets close to me she'll just get hurt", Madoka is sad because she was rejected, Homura is sad because she hurt Madoka, everything explodes.

Now, I realize that I am shadowrunning, and that such a scenario would be fairly out there; it's far more likely that Homura would just timestop and freak out, preferably at Sabrina.

Hmm. If we bring Sayaka in on the loop (heh) about Homura, we would have another head to bounce ideas off of. Blueberry is Madoka's friend, knows her better than we do.
 
Madoka works up the courage to ask Homura out, Mom rejects her under the logic of "if she gets close to me she'll just get hurt", Madoka is sad because she was rejected, Homura is sad because she hurt Madoka, everything explodes.
That's an argument for talking about this with Madoka directly, I think. It probably wouldn't be a problem to tell Madoka that Homura has serious hero-worship and self-worth issues and that step one would be convincing Homura that she's allowed to have anything nice.

edit: Having Madoka actively working to convince Homura that she's allowed to have nice things is useful enough all by itself that I'm now actually looking at this from a perspective of "Why shouldn't we do this?".
Hmm. If we bring Sayaka in on the loop (heh) about Homura, we would have another head to bounce ideas off of. Blueberry is Madoka's friend, knows her better than we do.
I fully expect Sayaka to put two and two together and get four, yes. Given "Homura has done this like a hundred times" and "Homura cares very deeply about Madoka", it's probably more likely than not that Sayaka comes to a mostly-correct conclusion.

edit:
Do tell? Because I really hate how the many timelines thing seems to make it so that no matter how well we do in this timeline there's still many many universes that will continue suffering with no hope of being fixed.
We know that interacting with all universes simultaneously is possible when you have enough power. Madokami canonically and explicitly has enough power and we're riding her Wish that "Everything can be fixed". So the question is the precise mechanism. Possibly something to do dewitching being a thing that requires interaction with the manifold universal Soul and you can only heal a witch by healing all of that girl's witches?
 
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In other news: Homura. I don't know if anyone has come up with any hypotheses better than "the potentialbomb means she's not helping and she won't have any reason to continue because we're here." Does that sound like a reasonable thing to work off of? I don't care that people think it's irrational, she isn't you and she doesn't have access to your wealth of intellect and years of free time with which to philosophize. If that is a reasonable theory to work from, what can we do with it? Like with Madoka, find things that only she can do to correct the "she won't have any reason to continue" part?

We probably can't go the Oriko route, get her together with Madoka and let her conclude that her life's purpose is to accept Madosnuggles. Too strongly against her wish, right?


Is there anything that Homura can protect Madoka from that we can't? ...Yeah, loneliness and self-esteem issues. We should proooobably mention that at some point, but I'm not sure how Homura would take it.

Hmm. There's no chance that Madoka leaning over Homura like that indicates interest from Madoka's side, right? Say that Sayaka had been sitting in the middle there; would Madoka have leaned over her like that?
I'll be honest, I don't like that hypothesis.

I think feelings of inferiority may be a contributing factor, they do after all change the context of things from "no one else can do this" to "someone else can do this, and better than I ever could." and they are something we need to help with, but I also think those feelings are recent and secondary. We knew how hard the bomb would hit Homura long before we made any real headway.

As far as how recent Homura's feelings are, looking at the cards on her witch from Rebellion it's pretty clear they she feels inferior, yes, but it's also clear that those feelings exist in the context of someone who feels they cannot match up to who they used to be.

The Nutcracker Witch. Its nature is self-sufficiency. Its gallant form, which once split many nuts, is now useless. Without any other purpose, this witch's last wish is her own execution. However, a mere decapitation will not clear away the witch's sins. This foolish witch will forever remain in this realm, repeating the procession to her execution.

----------------------

The Nutcracker Witch. Her nature is self-sufficiency. Her teeth are showing, her skull is melted, and her eyeballs have fallen out. A promise is the only thing that pitifully planted in that head which can no longer crack any nuts, but within the husk of the awakened witch is the distinct form of a magical girl. Her servants shamefully refer to that thing as a good-for-nothing.

I'm highlight bits because I think they show clearly the context of those feelings. That Homulilly feels like someone who used to have purpose and strength, and then lost it. Like she's been torn from her purpose because she failed, and fallen and she can't match up to her past accomplishments. As opposed to someone who was always weak.

Yes, Homura also shows those kinds of feelings before she contracts, but she also moves past them during the first few loops and I think Rebellion shows her opinion of her early-self there too. (Even during the braids phase, she's become someone competent, who's good at solving problems. How she introduces herself to her friends by showing her ring, for instance.)

The idea that Homura feels guilty on the other hand is something that's readily apparent when reading PMAS and I think it's important that it can be seen from reading just PMAS. It shows up again and again and while we address it at length in the "Madoka dreams about you" conversation we also don't solve it and it goes incredibly deep in her pysche.

I think it's an idea with a strong internal logic and something who's feelings are massively exacerbated by the potentialbomb. If the parallel universes thing hits her then it's because the hurts she's caused have not been being erased. If then even her mere fighting on is hurting Madoka, and putting her in ever-more danger. And if Feathers has any relation to Madoka then there's the living embodiment of the pain she's caused too.

(And yes, I'm contesting the "irrationality" of it, and people can be irrational, but even irrational feelings often make a strong internal sense, even if the logic hasn't been followed through yet.)

(I'm not sure how well it translates to others, but my own experience is that irrationality occurs as strong, sweeping feelings that override sense, rather than lacking it entirely. You hear the real answer, or at least the various faults in your logic, you're just too overwhelmed by the rest of your mind to listen to them. But you do still need some connection for the thoughts to follow, even if later or more complete logic cancels it out and your brain just doesn't do those bits.)

I think feelings of inferiority, on the other hand, changes the conclusion, turning it from "but I must fight on anyways" to "so I should just give up and let my betters take over" but they exacerbate guilt and fault, rather than replace it.



So yeah, I really do think it's Homura's feelings of guilt that's going to be at the core of everything.

------------------------------------

Unrelated, currently on readthrough and...

"How would you have fought, if you had to win at all costs?" Yuki asks, eyes flickering open again. "If you didn't have to care about collateral?"

"Wouldn't happen," you say firmly. "There's no circumstance where I wouldn't care about collateral."

"Humor me," Yuki says.

You shrug. "Vaporize the building, probably," you say. "Or uproot it in sections and toss it into orbit. And since we're asking questions, I have two, if you don't mind?"
I'm inordinately amused by how well this fits with "Sabrina as Walpurgisnacht" (Who pulls buildings into the sky in chunks, in her orbit, and then vaporizes them with witchfire.)

The fact that this also came out of the threadtalk at the time at the time only means we're doing it too.
 
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That's an argument for talking about this with Madoka directly, I think. It probably wouldn't be a problem to tell Madoka that Homura has serious hero-worship and self-worth issues and that step one would be convincing Homura that she's allowed to have anything nice.

edit: Having Madoka actively working to convince Homura that she's allowed to have nice things is useful enough all by itself that I'm now actually looking at this from a perspective of "Why shouldn't we do this?".

Yeah, we do need to talk to Madoka more, in general, really. Sabrina has interacted with her how much since the quest started? Madoka is at the center of all of this.

Then again, we don't want to slam on Homura's buttons about "don't bring her into this hell". Granted, the kind of talking we want to do (warning/teasing about her crush) probably won't be too bad.
 
I'm pretty sure @AuraTwilight has a degree in psychology.

Can confirm, I'm licensed specifically in abuse recovery therapy for kids and young adults, which in the context of voting on PMAS sometimes is sort of darkly hilarious and also part of the reason why I don't post or vote very much because oftentimes this quest reminds me of work in a bad way and I need to nope out.
 
On Iowa: Was it ever mentioned where in Japan they were heading? Remember that they know how to pick their targets, which means they have some means of intelligence gathering: They're not going to hit up Tokyo, Kyoto, or Osaka because they're fortresses, and once they learn that Mitakihara is building a Kanto/Tohoku coalition, they're not going to fuck with anything within our sphere of influence because they'll know by then that Mitakihara has absolutely bananas power projection and the will to use it-- the feeling that I'm getting is that they'd much rather bully and extort resources from people than expend resources getting into a fair fight. How do we factor that strategically? They're not going to be a threat to us and ours directly, but they're still going to try to do things we'd very much rather them not do within distance of us being able to prevent them from doing so-- which means they're essentially a pawn for Kyuubey to use to distract us at the worst possible moment.

Make a Grief replica of their living space and have it float above us while we're doing stuff.
YES FINALLY
 
"In the most concrete sense, sources tell me that the Iowa group was last sighted in India, barely a month ago. If they should make their way here..." Yuki sketches a diagonal line through the air, as if drawing a path between India and Japan. "We are in the line of fire. They would be merely the first."

"How about the Iowa group?" you ask as the torrent of Grief from the Grief Seed slows to a trickle. "I don't actually know much about them."

"Ah," Yuki says. "An excellent question. They are raiders, from America, as you might guess. They move into areas and demand Grief Seeds from the locals by dint of their powers. The locals typically do not have the firepower to fight back - the Iowa group knows to pick their targets. They stay for weeks to months before moving on."

There isn't that much information we currently have on Iowa, but if we take Yuki's information at face value:
• The Iowa group is cautious enough to pick their battles.
• The Iowa group is powerful enough that they would willingly pick a fight with Fukushima (who presumably have a pretty massive grief seed stockpile given their rates), instead of sticking to easier targets.

If I was part of the Iowa Group? Especially if I was being fed information about the situation in Japan by either Kyubey or a power in my group?

I'd look for a "weak point", a loosely aligned group that Sabrina gave a Clear Seed to without staying in particularly close contact. Ideally, it'd be a group far away from Mitakihara, too, to increase the response time.

And then I'd hit that group as fast and as hard as possible, try to stop them from getting a distress call out, and then get the hell out of dodge with our new Clear Seed.
 
does anyone remember if antimagic cuts us off from our grief? cause if it makes us lose control and causes it to evaporate then we would be a sitting duck if Iowa has someone with some form of antithis
 
does anyone remember if antimagic cuts us off from our grief? cause if it makes us lose control and causes it to evaporate then we would be a sitting duck if Iowa has someone with some form of antithis
I remember the last time Kirika hit us with it, we basically became non-functional. I dunno if that made our grief evaporate, but since we demonstrated we can basically clone grief (and being in combat, feeling like a witch is a non-issue), that wouldn't be as big as a problem of the whole "twitching mess" thing.
 
Wait wait wait I didn't catch this part. They're heading to Japan?

Redshirt, my buddy, my friend, leeeeeets talk about gemming...

I'm all for it, in their case? Even in the best case scenario where some of them can be redeemed, talking to them one-by-one is waaaaay more likely to succeed than letting them fuel each others worst impulses.

The real concern there is more on the practical end - there's a lot of conceptual powers that could screw with an attempted gem snatch from timestop, so I'd really rather be forewarned about their abilities before trying it.
 
I'm all for it, in their case? Even in the best case scenario where some of them can be redeemed, talking to them one-by-one is waaaaay more likely to succeed than letting them fuel each others worst impulses.

The real concern there is more on the practical end - there's a lot of conceptual powers that could screw with an attempted gem snatch from timestop, so I'd really rather be forewarned about their abilities before trying it.

Oh I was talking more like "let's vaporize their bodies."

I'm not really up for kid gloves when it comes to Iowa. Too much blatant intended evil backed by blatant intended power.
 
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