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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Just spitballing here, and I know most methods are avenues for being either a disaster, upending the status quo, or relatively a bad idea... but considering how Homura finds out about the potential-bomb... what if she were to work it out on her own rather than via someone telling her.

The way telling her would probably play out, regardless if it's us or Kyubey: she takes it to mean its entirely her fault for her fight to save Madoka becoming progressively worse with each loop, her guilt and self-loathing come back in full force as she mulls over it entirely. With telling her, she's being forced to face that truth and the implications it has on her mission. If she were to discover that facet of potential by herself... well, there may be a 50% chance of it not ending terribly for all involved. It's not 100%, but it's not 0 either.

Mind, I am not advocating laying clues out for her to work it out on her own, this was mainly a thought experiment with the aim of forcing us to think laterally about how to defuse the Potential Bomb. I'm personally not satisfied with this concept, but its the first one I could think of that did not involve telling her outright while helping her work out the truth... rough drafts of anything tend to suck.

On a related note, we really should start working out exactly what Firn has been hinting at about Homura and her part in all of this.

Firnagzen said:
Second, because I apparently have to be explicit about it: Yes, it's a warning. Things Will Happen if Homura learns that she is causing Madoka's potential to increase. Doubly so if Kyuubey finds the right time to strike, granted. It will not bad end the Quest, not just yet, but Things Will Happen. I've scattered hints and foreshadowing as to what those things are already, and as far as I can tell, no one's guessed it yet.
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Coupled with the numerous references to Sabrina being more than shocked at how willing Homura is to accept our help and being surprised by how candid she can be... I can't help but feel that's tied in with what Firn has been hinting about, staring us right in the face. Hell, thinking back on it, Homura was right near where we woke up when Madoka, Mami, and Sayaka first found us. Now, granted, it could be a coincidence considering Homura's habit of following Madoka everywhere.... but I keep thinking back to how Firn outright has said that EVERY post contains significant details and information for us...

There's something about Homura Akemi we're not realizing in our joy over her progress in becoming a better person.

I can't help but also think causality shenanigans are going on around here. We keep referencing Madokami even though, ostensibly, Madoka prevented her creation with the wish that created us (then again, Timeline shenangians, see Magi Reco where there's a whole Universe Madokami is confused with.). Our own Witch is a threat on an ontological scale, and we know from Rebellion Homulilly has the same level of danger. Do we even know if Demon Homura is also in play...?

Apologies if this came out as a rambling mess, this was mostly a direct train of thought being transcribed for the benefit of making avenues of investigation... I'm sure there's a hint staring us right in the fracking face @_@.
 
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Godwinson said:
This also completely ignores Firn's follow-up:

Which is that there are ways to avert things falling apart due to potentialbombing, but doing it first isn't one of them.
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Yeah, this is my sentiment too: Defusing things is important, but it's not something we're going to solve by just raising the issue directly and, unlike Mami, Homura is inquisitive enough that warning her will make her ask questions.

Part of why I want Homura, Sayaka, and Madoka to be able to talk to and understand each other is Homura's own line post-bombing: "I'm not even living in the same time that you are," and the conversation that follows it; A lot of why she's so lost after the potentialbomb is because she's drifted away from her friends and Madoka especially.

I think there's more going on in PMAS, and I don't think it will do everything on it's own, but even so if they can reconnect and be friends again, and Homura's desires to meet Madoka again and be her friend again is fulfilled, then perhaps the blow of her desire to protect Madoka backfiring will not be quite so all-consuming.

It's an ingredient for success, if not the whole recipe.
 
Cae Lumis said:
Just spitballing here, and I know most methods are avenues for being either a disaster, upending the status quo, or relatively a bad idea... but considering how Homura finds out about the potential-bomb... what if she were to work it out on her own rather than via someone telling her.

The way telling her would probably play out, regardless if it's us or Kyubey: she takes it to mean its entirely her fault for her fight to save Madoka becoming progressively worse with each loop, her guilt and self-loathing come back in full force as she mulls over it entirely. With telling her, she's being forced to face that truth and the implications it has on her mission. If she were to discover that facet of potential by herself... well, there may be a 50% chance of it not ending terribly for all involved. It's not 100%, but it's not 0 either.

Mind, I am not advocating laying clues out for her to work it out on her own, this was mainly a thought experiment with the aim of forcing us to think laterally about how to defuse the Potential Bomb. I'm personally not satisfied with this concept, but its the first one I could think of that did not involve telling her outright while helping her work out the truth... rough drafts of anything tend to suck.

On a related note, we really should start working out exactly what Firn has been hinting at about Homura and her part in all of this.



Coupled with the numerous references to Sabrina being more than shocked at how willing Homura is to accept our help and being surprised by how candid she can be... I can't help but feel that's tied in with what Firn has been hinting about, staring us right in the face. Hell, thinking back on it, Homura was right near where we woke up when Madoka, Mami, and Sayaka first found us. Now, granted, it could be a coincidence considering Homura's habit of following Madoka everywhere.... but I keep thinking back to how Firn outright has said that EVERY post contains significant details and information for us...

There's something about Homura Akemi we're not realizing in our joy over her progress in becoming a better person.

I can't help but also think causality shenanigans are going on around here. We keep referencing Madokami even though, ostensibly, Madoka prevented her creation with the wish that created us (then again, Timeline shenangians, see Magi Reco where there's a whole Universe Madokami is confused with.). Our own Witch is a threat on an ontological scale, and we know from Rebellion Homulilly has the same level of danger. Do we even know if Demon Homura is also in play...?

Apologies if this came out as a rambling mess, this was mostly a direct train of thought being transcribed for the benefit of making avenues of investigation... I'm sure there's a hint staring us right in the fracking face @_@.
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One of the leading theories is that the divergence point last timeline was Homura being potentialbombed, WITCHING OUT, and Madoka using her wish to dewitch Homura and set the stage for PMAS.

As in, the divergence point was Madoka being a minute late.
 
Could be anything, really. Not liking our chances of ever knowing.

Actually, it's a little ironic, if the theory's right. In canon, Madoka's wish was thought out ahead of time, motivated by selflessness and hope. Last loop, it would've been impulsive, desperate. Madoka had just seen her only friend left succumb to the ultimate hell. "Destroying all witches" might help with that, sure, but our mother would be shocked in despair. Thus, she wished that everything could fixed. A desperate hope, rather than a planned one.

"If a hope is born that can rewrite the universe, then at the same time, it is born from the mud of despair." The mud was deeper, then. The hope is brighter, now. Somehow, in her grief-filled desperation, Madoka made perhaps the only wish that is better than her canon one. We have a chance at healing Homura, reversing witchdom, saving all the meguca, uplifting humanity, breaking the system and the universe over our knee, all without Madoka having to sacrifice herself, all because of that hope born from despair.

EDIT: Although, if this is true, I don't like what it implies for Homura. She will have only succeeded because she failed, and all that.
 
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Shadowhisker said:
Could be anything, really. Not liking our chances of ever knowing.

Actually, it's a little ironic, if the theory's right. In canon, Madoka's wish was thought out ahead of time, motivated by selflessness and hope. Last loop, it would've been impulsive, desperate. Madoka had just seen her only friend left succumb to the ultimate hell. "Destroying all witches" might help with that, sure, but our mother would be shocked in despair. Thus, she wished that everything could fixed. A desperate hope, rather than a planned one.

"If a hope is born that can rewrite the universe, then at the same time, it is born from the mud of despair." The mud was deeper, then. The hope is brighter, now. Somehow, in her grief-filled desperation, Madoka made perhaps the only wish that is better than her canon one. We have a chance at healing Homura, reversing witchdom, saving all the meguca, uplifting humanity, breaking the system and the universe over our knee, all without Madoka having to sacrifice herself, all because of that hope born from despair.

EDIT: Although, if this is true, I don't like what it implies for Homura. She will have only succeeded because she failed, and all that.
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Adding onto this, and thinking a bit more on how Madoka tends to phrase her wish... I'm only somewhat skeptical that it would be something as simple as Homura witching out during Walpurgisnacht. Her canonical wish on the final loop was worded pretty damn specific, In Homura's Revenge, her wish was to specifically Help Homura. When Sayaka witched out in Different Story, Madoka wished bluntly to resurrect Sayaka. She tends to be more direct and on point with her wishes... it's probably why they never backfire in the traditional way and instead, she has the issue of burning through her magic too quickly (coupled with generally being pretty good about what to wish for, thank you Junko for making her business savvy).

If it was something as simple as Homura Witching Out, she could have simply wished, "Bring Homura back!" What was Madoka's wish instead? Something as awfully vague as "I wish for the means to fix everything!"

That's not how Madoka tends to word her wishes... development gag aside... the fact that it became her wish out of everything has to mean something. There's also how her wish was interpreted: She wished to possess the power to fix everything... and instead, we were created. Her wish could've turned her into a Goddess right then and there and she would most certainly have the power to fix everything by virtue of being a reality warper. Bonus points, she wouldn't even have the restrictions she would normally have by being the Law of Cycles and pull some the of stunts Demon Homura could do, i.e. giving everyone their ideal lives, WITHOUT being destructive about it (potentially, given we don't know anything about post-Rebellion).

Also, a thought occurred to me... what if the Madoka of the last cycle was MUCH more aware of the events that were going to happen... even perhaps knowing about Rebellion... and made that specific wish in the hopes that such a power could untangle the mess every Magical Girl found themselves in while respecting Homura's personal mission at the same time. Compromising what she wants to achieve with Homura's personal dream. Again, long shot and probably extremely unlikely, but... food for thought and another attempt to think outside the normal theories.

Either way, understanding more clearly what happened the last loop I think will be the key to working out exactly how to defuse the Potential Bomb... coupled with somehow finding out which clue has been staring us in the freaking face about Homura that Firn has kept trying to hint at.
 
Redshirt Army said:
No, she didn't. She wished "everything could be fixed", but didn't specify personal agency.
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The way that's worded, methinks, would not bestow power on Madoka, but instead make some sort of lasting, institutional change. Strike directly at Karmic Destiny, similar to the canon wish. Shift things so that the impossible becomes possible. Don't know how Sabrina fits into that equation- doesn't specify creating an avatar- but we have been doing good.

Oh. A thought. Why did we show up when we did? Why not at the beginning of the loop? What's so important about the twenty-eighth of March, that Sabrina showed up then, rather than the 25th (First Episode equivalent) or the 16th (Homura wakes up at the hospital)?
 
Redshirt Army said:
Maybe we didn't? Sabrina might have shown up earlier, and only gotten us in her head after suffering from traumatic brain damage.
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So, what did Brina do during that time? Why didn't she contract immediately? Why didn't she start with us?

Oh, I'm actually hoping Sayaka gets witch and loopbombed, and that she handles it. She's got Umika's power copied, so she can do that book thing to look into our past. (No offense to Umika, but Sayaka's the closer friend.)
 
Shadowhisker said:
The way that's worded, methinks, would not bestow power on Madoka, but instead make some sort of lasting, institutional change. Strike directly at Karmic Destiny, similar to the canon wish. Shift things so that the impossible becomes possible. Don't know how Sabrina fits into that equation- doesn't specify creating an avatar- but we have been doing good.

Oh. A thought. Why did we show up when we did? Why not at the beginning of the loop? What's so important about the twenty-eighth of March, that Sabrina showed up then, rather than the 25th (First Episode equivalent) or the 16th (Homura wakes up at the hospital)?
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Well, according to the anime timeline, the only thing noteworthy that occurs that day is successfully hunting Gertrud.

Perhaps it's when Walpurgisnacht starts haunting the city. :V
 
Shadowhisker said:
Oh. A thought. Why did we show up when we did? Why not at the beginning of the loop? What's so important about the twenty-eighth of March, that Sabrina showed up then, rather than the 25th (First Episode equivalent) or the 16th (Homura wakes up at the hospital)?
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Oriko made a contract that day, iirc. At least, in thereabouts.

( and she kinda was going to be an arc villain before Homu rolled good and put a lid on that )
 
Raiseth said:
Oriko made a contract that day, iirc. At least, in thereabouts.

( and she kinda was going to be an arc villain before Homu rolled good and put a lid on that )
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Yeah... There was an invistext countdown and everything.

Wait, were we meant to stop Oriko from contracting, or otherwise interfere in it? Firn did spell out that she was going to be an antagonist in the OP, and that he hated the saying "villains act, heroes react".

Oh, well. If that was true, much too late to do anything about it now.
 
Raiseth said:
Oriko made a contract that day, iirc. At least, in thereabouts.

( and she kinda was going to be an arc villain before Homu rolled good and put a lid on that )
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That's another thing to even consider. Oriko contracted. Not only did she contract (which Symmetry Diamond and Last Agate show she does in fact contract more times than Homura keeps track of... or I suppose we can use leeway and say that since during those times Oriko is not actively hunting Madoka, Homura focuses solely on her mission since she wasn't being an active threat. Heck, both Symmetry Diamond and Last Agate show that both Oriko and Kirika go on to fight Walpurgisnacht... which makes for a good question if Homura ever noticed them fighting the Witch during those timelines now thinking about it...), She didn't see her usual subjects for her precognizance (Walpurgisnacht or Kreimheld Gretchen), and instead foresaw the things that she would need to do in her own self-destructive way to bring us all together and help us win... along with Feathers. That's a dramatic departure.
 
Cae Lumis said:
Adding onto this, and thinking a bit more on how Madoka tends to phrase her wish... I'm only somewhat skeptical that it would be something as simple as Homura witching out during Walpurgisnacht. Her canonical wish on the final loop was worded pretty damn specific, In Homura's Revenge, her wish was to specifically Help Homura. When Sayaka witched out in Different Story, Madoka wished bluntly to resurrect Sayaka. She tends to be more direct and on point with her wishes... it's probably why they never backfire in the traditional way and instead, she has the issue of burning through her magic too quickly (coupled with generally being pretty good about what to wish for, thank you Junko for making her business savvy).

If it was something as simple as Homura Witching Out, she could have simply wished, "Bring Homura back!" What was Madoka's wish instead? Something as awfully vague as "I wish for the means to fix everything!"

That's not how Madoka tends to word her wishes... development gag aside... the fact that it became her wish out of everything has to mean something. There's also how her wish was interpreted: She wished to possess the power to fix everything... and instead, we were created. Her wish could've turned her into a Goddess right then and there and she would most certainly have the power to fix everything by virtue of being a reality warper. Bonus points, she wouldn't even have the restrictions she would normally have by being the Law of Cycles and pull some the of stunts Demon Homura could do, i.e. giving everyone their ideal lives, WITHOUT being destructive about it (potentially, given we don't know anything about post-Rebellion).

Also, a thought occurred to me... what if the Madoka of the last cycle was MUCH more aware of the events that were going to happen... even perhaps knowing about Rebellion... and made that specific wish in the hopes that such a power could untangle the mess every Magical Girl found themselves in while respecting Homura's personal mission at the same time. Compromising what she wants to achieve with Homura's personal dream. Again, long shot and probably extremely unlikely, but... food for thought and another attempt to think outside the normal theories.

Either way, understanding more clearly what happened the last loop I think will be the key to working out exactly how to defuse the Potential Bomb... coupled with somehow finding out which clue has been staring us in the freaking face about Homura that Firn has kept trying to hint at.
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You know, another theory that was popular in the old Discord days was that one of the divergence points was that Madoka was Potentialbombed...
 
AuraTwilight said:
You know, another theory that was popular in the old Discord days was that one of the divergence points was that Madoka was Potentialbombed...
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I'll admit, it's not my own favored theory, but looking at this in light of today's events I kind of wish we knew what moving parts led to Madoka figuring things out herself in Oriko's visions, and how likely those were to occur in a timeline where we weren't here to drop hints about how potential actually worked.

Because if our actions in this timeline are not an influence then I wonder if Oriko's visions of Madoka potentialbombing Homura after figuring it out on her own would hold true of the last timeline.

EDIT: You know, why is "Homura witched" theory is paired with UKG theory anyways? Wouldn't it be more likely that if Madoka dewitched Homura she'd have then used the same power on Walpurgis? (And maybe Sayaka too, depending on how it all unfolded.)
 
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I'm cooking on something. Does anyone care to nail down what the actual utility of Karmic Destiny / Potential is mapped to on the normal reality sans Magic shenanigans? What are the consequences of the variable?

Shadowhisker said:
The way that's worded, methinks, would not bestow power on Madoka, but instead make some sort of lasting, institutional change. Strike directly at Karmic Destiny, similar to the canon wish. Shift things so that the impossible becomes possible. Don't know how Sabrina fits into that equation- doesn't specify creating an avatar- but we have been doing good.

Oh. A thought. Why did we show up when we did? Why not at the beginning of the loop? What's so important about the twenty-eighth of March, that Sabrina showed up then, rather than the 25th (First Episode equivalent) or the 16th (Homura wakes up at the hospital)?
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I might think in messy terms - as it would make sense to me that if a big open wording like that produced Sabrina and changed Wishes for some girls, it might reasonably result in a normal curve distribution of similar helpers worldwide, of which we are the farthest fringe on the 'power' standard deviations. It would be more fun?

I'm really noticing a lack of defined and focused end goal for some of this enchantment session. I'll offer that trying to prescribe interlocking action for everyone is a valuable way to think. Try re-composing the vote to make those concepts point towards a result now? Is there a goal we need in the sort term at all? Asking, as mine is fairly concrete, please contrast with your owns goals?
 
The Phoenixian said:
I'll admit, it's not my own favored theory, but looking at this in light of today's events I kind of wish we knew what moving parts led to Madoka figuring things out herself in Oriko's visions, and how likely those were to occur in a timeline where we weren't here to drop hints about how potential actually worked.
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HeroCycle said:
I'm cooking on something. Does anyone care to nail down what the actual utility of Karmic Destiny / Potential is mapped to on the normal reality sans Magic shenanigans? What are the consequences of the variable?

I might think in messy terms - as it would make sense to me that if a big open wording like that produced Sabrina and changed Wishes for some girls, it might reasonably result in a normal curve distribution of similar helpers worldwide, of which we are the farthest fringe on the 'power' standard deviations. It would be more fun?

I'm really noticing a lack of defined and focused end goal for some of this enchantment session. I'll offer that trying to prescribe interlocking action for everyone is a valuable way to think. Try re-composing the vote to make those concepts point towards a result now? Is there a goal we need in the sort term at all? Asking, as mine is fairly concrete, please contrast with your owns goals?
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Grain of Salt time:

The way I always understood it was partially by looking into what the Japanese Term they used for "Karmic Potential" was. Specifically, they use 因果 (Rom: Inga), meaning Causality. As in, the same thing that binds every character in Berserk. In other words, the Incubators look into the potential cause and effect someone will have over the course of their life (something Kyubey implies they can do in Rebellion when he mentions to Homura how Madoka was someone who never existed nor had the future possibility to ever exist) in order to determine how powerful their magic will be and consequently how powerful their Witch would be. This was why Madoka became so appealing of a target during the later loops: despite being an ordinary high schooler with what should have been an average level of causality, she bore the causality of having the fate of the world on her shoulders... because Homura would rather let the world burn than be without Madoka Kaname (figuratively and literally).

An easier way to understand my explanation would be to compare the Incubators to the Shinigami from Death Note. In Death Note, the Shinigami rob a human of their potential lifespan and add it onto their own. In Madoka, the Incubators use the potential effects their future actions cause to fuel their wish...

This, incidentally, was also why the Magius in Magi Reco (Ui, Nemu, and Touka) had such low causality... they were originally fated to die around that month, the potential effect their actions would cause was already up.

On a semi-related note, it may be a coincidence... but I think I discovered the reason Homura's soul gem is shaped like a diamond, and constantly bears a diamond motif.


Bonus Points, take a gander at her Magical Seal (seen in both the end of the anime and Wraith Arc)
 
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Cae Lumis said:
Grain of Salt time:

The way I always understood it was partially by looking into what the Japanese Term they used for "Karmic Potential" was. Specifically, they use 因果 (Rom: Inga), meaning Causality. As in, the same thing that binds every character in Berserk. In other words, the Incubators look into the potential cause and effect someone will have over the course of their life (something Kyubey implies they can do in Rebellion when he mentions to Homura how Madoka was someone who never existed nor had the future possibility to ever exist) in order to determine how powerful their magic will be and consequently how powerful their Witch would be. This was why Madoka became so appealing of a target during the later loops: despite being an ordinary high schooler with what should have been an average level of causality, she bore the causality of having the fate of the world on her shoulders... because Homura would rather let the world burn than be without Madoka Kaname (figuratively and literally).

An easier way to understand my explanation would be to compare the Incubators to the Shinigami from Death Note. In Death Note, the Shinigami rob a human of their potential lifespan and add it onto their own. In Madoka, the Incubators use the potential effects their future actions cause to fuel their wish...

This, incidentally, was also why the Magius in Magi Reco (Ui, Nemu, and Touka) had such low causality... they were originally fated to die around that month, the potential effect their actions would cause was already up.

On a semi-related note, it may be a coincidence... but I think I discovered the reason Homura's soul gem is shaped like a diamond, and constantly bears a diamond motif.


Bonus Points, take a gander at her Magical Seal (seen in both the end of the anime and Wraith Arc)
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Oh, neat. I was always thinking it was an 'almost reference' to the Vajra. But this is a much closer match.

If there are other sources, Please chime in!

I can move to the further discrimination - is Causality a unary measure unto itself, or is it always bound to the events of history it will result in specifically? This is very important!
 
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