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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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jacobplm said:
This is UNETHICAL SCIENCE, the worst kind of SCIENCE, and you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting this course of SCIENCE, you poor excuse for a SCIENTIST.
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Not a SCIENTIST. Witch, remember?

More importantly, I wasn't advocating that we perform uncontrolled evil experiments, but that we make sure we actually make sure that Grief Weapons won't make them Witch Out before we start using them regularly in fights against Magi.

Ethics are debateable, but it's better than just shoving a Grief Blade into someone and hoping it doesn't Witch them on contact.

Besides, would you prefer we test Grief on ourselves or an ally? At least these girls are actively trying to kill us.
 
...They haven't tried to kill us yet, and even if they were, we're trying to save them all. Grief tests are an indulgence, not a necessity, and even if they weren't, that's not an excuse to use it to kill people off...let alone with Mami along for the ride.
 
Loops said:
The only ones who have actively tried to kill us are the precog back home and our sunny yandere bro on the carpet. The girls here aside from the Sendai ones don't know we exist yet.
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Didn't mean the Sendai group. I meant hypothetical Magi who will eventually try to kill us. You know, later, likely from another faction.

Not advocating we experiment on allies, potential allies, neutral parties, or non-violent opponents.

Ugolino said:
...They haven't tried to kill us yet, and even if they were, we're trying to save them all. Grief tests are an indulgence, not a necessity, and even if they weren't, that's not an excuse to use it to kill people off...let alone with Mami along for the ride.
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Again, trying to PREVENT deaths through careful examination of side effects of a low-scale grief attack (meaning that we keep an eye out in case Cleansing is needed), rather than throwing around Grief Blades later, without making sure they're not going to corrupt everyone they touch.
 
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Higure said:
Didn't mean the Sendai group. I meant hypothetical Magi who will eventually try to kill us. You know, later, likely from another faction.

Not advocating we experiment on allies, potential allies, neutral parties, or non-violent opponents
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Except...that we're still going to try and get them to see reason. Pretty much everyone is a potential ally.

It'd take a very specific set of actions to make wanting to kill someone a good idea in this quest, and even then doing science on them "because they're an enemy" is extremely dubious.
 
Ugolino said:
Except...that we're still going to try and get them to see reason. Pretty much everyone is a potential ally.

It'd take a very specific set of actions to make wanting to kill someone a good idea in this quest, and even then doing science on them "because they're an enemy" is extremely dubious.
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...again, trying to avoid accidentally massacring Magi if it becomes a fight. Hopefully that won't happen, and no science will be performed.

It'd be nice to get the data, but it's not something we can just do for the hell of it, because, as you say, ethics. If we're going to have to hurt them anyway, however...might as well avoid casualties and expand our knowledge at the same time. Unless you'd like to try to beat multiple Magi with nothing but a warhammer?
 
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Higure said:
...again, trying to avoid accidentally hurting massacring Magi if it becomes a fight. Hopefully that won't happen, and no science will be perrformed.

It'd be nice to get the data, but it's not something we can just do for the hell of it, because, as you say, ethics. If we're going to have to hurt them anyway, however...might as well avoid casualties and expand our knowledge at the same time. Unless you'd like to try to beat multiple Magi with nothing but a warhammer?
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...Yes? We know how the hammer works, we can more easily avoid doing something we'd regret with the hammer, and we can use our existing abilities quite well without needing to experiment in combat with something that might fail, not be useful, or backfire horribly. If we need to hurt people, we do it in ways we know will work as we expect it to.

The data's completely unimportant by comparison with the potential risks of SCIENCE going wrong. Grief is not a toy.

It is a musical instrument, but that's different. :p
 
Guys, if we go barreling in we lose the diplomatic option right out of the gate. Our flashy entrance with the Sendai group won us no favors with them and they were not in the middle of a meguca war zone at the time. Not to mention that if we don't at least try stealth, it becomes guaranteed that someone from Ishinomaki is going to be following us.

I thought the point of our intervention was to stop the fighting, not drag it to our doorstep.
 
Ugolino said:
...Yes? We know how the hammer works, we can more easily avoid doing something we'd regret with the hammer, and we can use our existing abilities quite well without needing to experiment in combat with something that might fail, not be useful, or backfire horribly. If we need to hurt people, we do it in ways we know will work as we expect it to.

The data's completely unimportant by comparison with the potential risks of SCIENCE going wrong. Grief is not a toy.

It is a musical instrument, but that's different. :p
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...okay. If you really intend to not use any Grief during potential fights at all, then I suppose it doesn't matter. Just kinda assumed we'd need to, considering the kind of shit the other Magi have at their disposal...

Just don't blame me if we're forced to Grief Spear someone in order to save Mami or something, and they immediately become a Witch.
 
Hmmm. Switching vote to this:

[x] Go for stealth. Keep your grief presence as suppressed as possible, for as long as possible when you extract the Sendai girls.
[x] Look for Akiko. Get her to a point Sakura can teleport to even if it means going back to Mitakihara.
-[x] If Akiko is under attack, decompress grief as a distraction. Or grief signature feels like a witch let's use that to our advantage. Keep in touch with Akiko. If the Ishinomaki meguca break contact, then recompress grief.
-[x] If they do not break contact, go loud. Make them know the storm is coming for them. Grief, pyrotechnics, and rainbow colors if nothing else, it will make them pause or draw their attention. Worst comes to worst, drop the hammer. Addendum: Do this at close range to avoid enemy intervention.
-[x] Watch for other meguca, do not engage if possible.
-[x] Use your grief to create mobile cover for your group. Fire grief marbles but keep the speed low, aim for injury not the kill. If possible have Mami subdue them with ribbons. Have Kirika provide indirect fire or destroy their cover. Do not have her use her anti-magic under any circumstances.
 
@Higure
In that unlikely event, you probably won't get the blame? We've seen how Grief interacts with magical girls in Witch fights after all.

@Alfa290 The current cannon vote isn't too bad on that front, it just makes it obvious that we're getting the Sendai group out. Diplomacy should still be possible after that as we're not actively burning bridges and there are probably going to be plenty of chances for damage control in the following vote.
 
Higure said:
...okay. If you really intend to not use any Grief during potential fights at all, then I suppose it doesn't matter. Just kinda assumed we'd need to, considering the kind of shit the other Magi have at their disposal...

Just don't blame me if we're forced to Grief Spear someone in order to save Mami or something, and they immediately become a Witch.
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Higure, is fine to use weaponized grief against another meguca AS LONG AS WE DON'T TARGET THE SG. I mean, we used grief made bullets against Kirika IIRC and went fine.

Using grief for that purpose is something we can do, but this whole mess started because, and excuse me for the rudeness, you started wifh the idea of performing SCIENCE on a meguca.

Which is... Huh...
 
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Ugolino said:
@Higure
In that unlikely event, you probably won't get the blame? We've seen how Grief interacts with magical girls in Witch fights after all.
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...true enough. Probably fine then anyway, just paranoid.

EtchedSteel said:
Higure, is fine to use weaponized grief against another meguca AS LONG AS WE DON'T TARGET THE SG. I mean, we used grief made bullets against Kirika IIRC and went fine.

Using grief for that purpose is something we can do, but this whole mess started because, and excuse the rudeness, you started wifh the idea of performing SCIENCE on a meguca.

Which is... Huh...
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Actually, I was just proposing a methodology. The actual need for small scale testing was put forth by PhantomFractions, a couple posts before my first one. I just was pointing out a way to do it that didn't involve stabbing ourselves or our friends, and had a low casualty rate.
 
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[] Go for stealth. Keep your grief presence as suppressed as possible, for as long as possible when you extract the Sendai girls.
[] Look for Akiko. Get her to a point Sakura can teleport to even if it means going back to Mitakihara.
-[] If Akiko is under attack, decompress grief as a distraction. Or grief signature feels like a witch let's use that to our advantage. Keep in touch with Akiko. If the Ishinomaki meguca break contact, then recompress grief.
-[] If they do not break contact, go loud. Make them know the storm is coming for them. Grief, pyrotechnics, and rainbow colors if nothing else, it will make them pause or draw their attention. Worst comes to worst, drop the hammer. Addendum: Do this at close range to avoid enemy intervention.
-[] Watch for other meguca, do not engage if possible.
-[] Use your grief to create mobile cover for your group. Fire grief marbles but keep the speed low, aim for injury not the kill. If possible have Mami subdue them with ribbons. Have Kirika provide indirect fire or destroy their cover. Do not have her use her anti-magic under any circumstances.

I'm rather conflicted, but I'll throw in with the stealth side. (And I think that ties things up quite nicely, if I'm tallying right).
Opening up diplomatic discussions via scaring the bejeezus out of everyone didn't help us so much when we met the Sendai girls the first time, and I think it's more likely to escalate the fight than anything else. On the other hand, I don't love the "no antimagic no matter what" bit, since we brought Kirika to be a trump card and it's better to specify under what conditions we want her to step in unless we think the updates are going to be sized to single rounds of combat. I also feel like the stealth route, if the other side figures out there's megucas around but doesn't talk us directly now, could just convince them that we're Sendai reinforcements, making dialog harder later.

Hmm, tradeoffs galore.

Edit: Ties are boring.
[] Go loud. Grief wings, barrier of mist, the works.
[] Look for Akiko. Rin and Sakura are hard to corner with Sakura's abilities, and Akiko is likely to know more about the situation anyway.
-[] If we find Akiko under fire, use our grief shields to protect her while bailing her out. Try and see if we can talk the Ishino girls down, but don't push it if they are obviously unwilling to listen.
[] Keep an eye out for other megucas while on the way, but try not to engage them.
[] Regroup with Rin and Sakura afterwards, then retreat to some place safe.
-[] Once they are no longer in any direct danger, get them to fill you in on what is going on. Don't back down on this, if it feels like they are hiding something or being less than truthful, keep pressing.
[] If combat erupts at any point:
-[] Be intimidating and flashy, but focus on the defence. Intercept attacks with grief shields and subdue them either using grief binds or Mami's ribbons, but don't seriously harm anyone if you can help it. We're here to stop the war, not kill everyone involved.
-[] Keep Kirika away from the fighting. She doesn't have a reliable way of subduing hostile megucas without resorting to her antimagic, and we want to keep that ability a secret until it becomes necessary to bust it out.

Edit part 2, the Revenditing: [x] Crasian01
 
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Ugolino said:
Don't we usually have marbles around us and ready to use anyway?
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Actually? We only ever did that once during the timestop hunt for Oriko. And that was only because Sabrina didn't have her sling bag at the time.

Most of the time we usually use the witches own grief against her (including the most recent witch 'Ann'), or extract grief from others soul gems.

In fact, it's extremely rare for us to use marbles that have been in our bag for longer than a few hours. Yeah we use our wings from time to time but that was grief that came from hildegarde.


So yeah, the wording of the stealth vote bothers me a bit.

edit: correction. We did it twice. Once with the timestop hunt and another, we were floating about a hundred basketball sized grief orbs during are first flying attempt with wings.
 
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Muramasa said:
Actually? We only ever did that once during the timestop hunt for Oriko. And that was only because Sabrina didn't have her sling bag at the time.

Most of the time we usually use the witches own grief against her (including the most recent witch 'Ann'), or extract grief from others soul gems.

In fact, it's extremely rare for us to use marbles that have been in our bag for longer than a few hours. Yeah we use our wings from time to time but that was grief that came from hildegarde.


So yeah, the wording of the stealth vote bothers me a bit.
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Frankenvote Ahoy, with Marbles Attached!

[x] Go for stealth. Keep your grief presence as suppressed as possible, for as long as possible when you extract the Sendai girls.
[x] Watch for other meguca, do not engage if possible.
[x] Have marbles on orbit, ready for combat.
[x] Akiko, we're coming for you first. Where are you? Any landmarks? Rin, where can you and Sakura meet up with us?
-[x] If Akiko is under attack, decompress grief as a distraction. Or grief signature feels like a witch let's use that to our advantage. Keep in touch with Akiko. If the Ishinomaki meguca break contact, then recompress grief.
-[x] If they do not break contact, go loud. Make them know the storm is coming for them. Grief, pyrotechnics, and rainbow colors if nothing else, it will make them pause or draw their attention. Worst comes to worst, drop the hammer. Do this at close range to avoid enemy intervention.
-[x] Be intimidating and flashy, but focus on the defense. Intercept attacks with grief shields and subdue them either using grief binds or Mami's ribbons, but don't seriously harm anyone if you can help it. We're here to stop the war, not kill everyone involved.
-[x] Keep Kirika away from the fighting. She doesn't have a reliable way of subduing hostile megucas without resorting to her antimagic, and we want to keep that ability a secret until it becomes necessary to bust it out.
[x] Pick up Akiko and magic carpet to rendezvous point.
[x] First priority is to get out of the city and into the suburbs - less likely for Meguca to find us there. Once out of the danger zone we can decide what our next move is with the group.
 
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