It's important to keep in mind that if we're not able to find a way to make sure she doesn't keep killing people after this meeting, then those deaths will be on Sabrina, because she knew Rionna was going to continue killing people and had the ability to make her stop, but didn't.
 
It's important to keep in mind that if we're not able to find a way to make sure she doesn't keep killing people after this meeting, then those deaths will be on Sabrina, because she knew Rionna was going to continue killing people and had the ability to make her stop, but didn't.
Sure. Just like we'll be responsible for anyone who gets hurt by any of the hostile meguca we've tried to open a dialogue with. Hijiri, Oriko and Kirika, Sendai, Fukushima... they've all hurt people before and could do so again, but we still chose the path of diplomacy wherever possible. We're always going to be responsible for the consequences of that choice, and every choice we make.

The only way we're ever going to convince her to stop doing the thing we don't want her to do is if we can establish some sort of dialogue.
 
It's important to keep in mind that if we're not able to find a way to make sure she doesn't keep killing people after this meeting, then those deaths will be on Sabrina, because she knew Rionna was going to continue killing people and had the ability to make her stop, but didn't.
Posts like these are designed to kick off morality debates. Do you really want to kick off another morality debate? I mean we just had the mods in here.
 
Posts like these are designed to kick off morality debates. Do you really want to kick off another morality debate? I mean we just had the mods in here.
It wasn't designed to kick off a morality debate. It's part of the fundamental dilemma facing Sabrina here, and we should keep that in mind.
Adhoc vote count started by Godwinson on Aug 7, 2018 at 1:50 AM, finished with 78 posts and 21 votes.

  • [X] If at any point she asks what we want from her: dewitching, the shades, not killing people if it could be avoided. Vocalize & explain dewitching first.
    [X] We haven't given up on this conversation yet because she has things we want.
    -[X] We can't help her because the two of us don't trust each other, no?
    --[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her: refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
    [X] At this point, if dewitching hasn't already been brought up:
    -[X] Before you explore anything further, the two of you wouldn't happen to have a mutual interest in turning grief seeds back into soul gems, would you?
    [X] Trust is a hot commodity, but perhaps a substitute could be crafted in some manner?
    [x] One of the first things you said was that I can't exactly give you my magic.
    - [x] What did you want it for? What would you expect to be able to do with it that you assume I can't or won't do for you?
    [x] Mention something about dewitching. Maybe it's what she wants from us, maybe it's not, but it's certainly what we want from her.
    [x] Think out loud.
    [x] Why do you think that Rionna is so sure you can't help? You have two guesses.
    [x] First guess: Rionna has some problem that's even more exotic and difficult than cleansing.
    -[x] She seems to already have cleansing solved for herself, judging by her power's ongoing cost. She knows you can cleanse and isn't interested.
    -[x] You hope it's this because you're currently working on dewitching and were anticipating Rionna's arrival. You're not sure there's much that's harder than that.
    [x] Second guess: Rionna is doing something that puts her on Sabrina's List of Things To Fix.
    -[x] Is the problem with the means to an end or the end itself?
    -[x] You hope it's the means, because your entire purpose in life is to fix everything, and you're damn good at offering people better means.
    -[x] If it's the ends, well, you're always up for therapy. How does she feel about her mother?
    [X] Tell Rionna that we want to make a soul gem. We need her soul vision.
    [X] Tell her we will get to fabricate a body. Grief doesn't form a normal Magical Girl. Others tried it.
    [X] State that saving everybody is our goal.
    [X] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
    [X] Explain we understand perfectly what Magical Girl life leads her to do, even though we are new.
    [X] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time that she gave us the answers we want.
    [X] We can almost communicate with witches.
    [X] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
    [x] I want to help fix things. Does it have to be a fight?
    [x] Whatever it is you're dealing with, it was worth coming out all this way here. At the very least I can hear you out. Rionna, why did you come out here? What's troubling you?
    [x] (If she's still reluctant) Try to encourage her to talk about her problems. You won't be able to help at all if you don't know what the problem is.
    [X] Bring up our dewitching efforts, including the progress we've made. That, with some help, we might be on the verge of a breakthrough.
    [x] "Right. Rionna. I haven't actually told my offer yet, have I?"
    -[x] "Show me a grief seed, and I can make it last for a lifetime. Would that be the help you were looking for?"
    [X]'You're right I don't want a fight with you, but if you ever change your mind about accepting my help, you know how to get in touch.'
    [X]'Before you leave, could you examine this clear seed with your soul sense? I've been really needing a qualified second opinion on these.'
    -[X]Listen to what she says.
    --[X]Explain what you know. 'To my senses, this seed feels.... calm, peaceful. Do you think this could be a step toward reversing the soul gem's metamorphosis?'
    ---[X]Listen to response and break for voting.
    [x] Why do we have to fight? She wants something. So do we. We can work together.
    [x] Show her Aurora. Properly explain the Clear Seed: the sheer amount of Grief removed, the quiescent nature of the witch inside, that you'd been feeding it hope magic.
    -[x] This might be the first step to turning a witch back into a person. We want to do that and we think she can help us.
 
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It's important to keep in mind that if we're not able to find a way to make sure she doesn't keep killing people after this meeting, then those deaths will be on Sabrina, because she knew Rionna was going to continue killing people and had the ability to make her stop, but didn't.
Sure. Something I feel that gets brought up less, though, is that if Sabrina resorts to gemming or killing her, she will have failed a person - maybe two people - who needed her help. Not a particularly good person, sure - and I do consider this to be less important than ensuring she doesn't produce more victims - but still, someone in need.

Rionna has some kind of moral code left, or she just would have ripped out Sabrina's soul on arrival. She wouldn't have needed to confirm Sabrina's powers, because she could have tested it with a shade. And we have good textual evidence to suggest she's having trouble psyching herself up for a fight here. Perhaps that's a line she doesn't want to cross - taking the soul of someone she doesn't believe deserved it and who hasn't tried to kill her.

It'd be a massive hit to Sabrina's idealism to fail here - either way it happens.
 
@Muramasa
No. It's a fair thing to be brought up. There's nothing wrong with considering the morality of doing -or not- something like this.
Will do. Let me try to make this a "case comparison" for future reference?

It's important to keep in mind that if we're not able to find a way to make sure she doesn't keep killing people after this meeting, then those deaths will be on Sabrina, because she knew Rionna was going to continue killing people and had the ability to make her stop, but didn't.
Is there a choice here? We have obtained clear proof. I see no choice. Our challenge is to determine what all of our means of action are. Then to differentiate what outcome we could create different from inaction. The ways we could prevent her wrong actions are varied and unequal. Punishment isn't the highest priority.

"Ability" is a word that does not admit the spectrum of outcomes we might want. We are testing those right now, "direct appeal" was not effective.

If we have no method of controlling the outcome, that is one case.
Should we become able to prevent the deaths, that is another.

Seeking the lesser harm, or better, introducing positive justice could be our most concise guide. I want us to understand that we do not know if we have that capability to mitigate this yet. Mitigate refers to solutions that do not require coercion. Anri got beyond that line, by rejecting us with force and harm. Rionna hasn't made that choice ATM.

Do you agree?

Definitely premature. It is - not time - to answer this, until we understand what our power over this is, and what the residual effect are.


We do this by careful interrogation, and follow on with exploratory action.
Do you agree?

Not intending to make Sabrina carry doubts and gnawing unease, so I want you all to make solid choices she doesn't need to regret. Those choices may not always be equal to an ideal, because the world isn't ideal. We should aspire to improve upon any moral paradox we can. Some are not soluble. Each time we act, finishing with our best effort for what we value will leave a clear brow for her. Sabrina isn't an academic philosopher, she's Here to Help (c)Firn.
 
So, um.

I--

Listen, I don't know if I've gone crazy or not, but...

Okay, even more than that, I don't want to construe myself as supporting this AT ALL, but, well...

Why don't we just investigate Edinburgh?

I mean, we have access to a time stop.

It's completely insane...

But it is in fact within the realm of possibility...

We could send Homura to Edinburgh.

There are *downsides* to this. Primarily, we can't really go ourselves because feathers. And if there's some kind of trap there that could be activated from timestop, that would be bad.

But the moment I realized this, I knew I had to put it on the table because of two simple facts:

One, Rionna is not expecting to be visited by a time-stopper.

Two, it could tell us absolutely everything we need to know.


I don't know how much I support this notion. I'm entirely certain Homura is capable of it -- it would take a lot less time than her setting up for Walpurgisnacht usually does, at a guess, and she has a clear seed. Furthermore, based on our inability to receive telepathy in a privacy sphere, Rionna shouldn't receive any alarms that might be triggered (if they are triggered -- time stop is a *powerful* thing).

I'm just not sure it's a good idea, even with all of that. It's... It's *insane.* Its probably in rather bad faith. It could totally alienate her.

It could also work. To hell with this business of knowing nothing and being unable to trust each other -- if we know *exactly* what is going on here, well, we've come this far with nothing.

It just happens to be completely insane. And involves Homura leaving Mitakihara, which I'm sure she has done before but still.
 
We could send Homura to Edinburgh.

There are *downsides* to this. Primarily, we can't really go ourselves because feathers. And if there's some kind of trap there that could be activated from timestop, that would be bad.

But the moment I realized this, I knew I had to put it on the table because of two simple facts:

One, Rionna is not expecting to be visited by a time-stopper.

Two, it could tell us absolutely everything we need to know.
So who do we send with Homura? Not healthy to ask Homura to do that all by herself and without our fast-travel. Sayaka would probably nuke Edinburgh the instant she figured out what the problem was. Heh, Homura holding Sayaka back, imagine how hard Homura would WTF. Can't send Mami since she's sitting right there and Riona is probably pretty sharp. Prooooobably can't send Kyouko and Yuma. Niko would be ideal; she's probably srs bsns enough to get along with Homura, she's a science type so she can do the analysis we'd probably need, she's already witchbombed since it's invariably going to have something to do with that, she can probably do something about the noise or just ignore it, and she's focused enough to stay on mission and report back with findings. Would Homura let Niko into time stop? Sending those two off on a science mission would be excellent.
 
@Kaizuki
My concerns with that plan would be that while Rionna might not have prepared for Time Stop, some of her preparations might be broad enough that they catch Homura anyways, and it sees Homura having to fight Rionna's defenses on her own, a world away from everyone. Furthermore, travel times. Homura can't catch a plane and we wouldn't be there to help her go faster, so it'll take a lot of time in timestop for her to travel to the other side of the world, significant times away from Mitakihara, from her friends and her mission, all for an end that is very tenuously connected to the thing that's kept her going.

Basically, I'm concerned that this idea would be very bad for Homura's wellbeing on more than one front.
 
Hmm. Yeah, definitely can't send Homura alone, she needs someone that can fast-travel and keep her sane. Sayaka, and hope that Homura can keep her from blowing up when they figure out what's going on?

Recursing into Homura and Sayaka's Excellent Adventure would be... a thing. Yeah.
 
So, um.

I--

Listen, I don't know if I've gone crazy or not, but...

Okay, even more than that, I don't want to construe myself as supporting this AT ALL, but, well...

Why don't we just investigate Edinburgh?

I mean, we have access to a time stop.

It's completely insane...

But it is in fact within the realm of possibility...

We could send Homura to Edinburgh.

There are *downsides* to this. Primarily, we can't really go ourselves because feathers. And if there's some kind of trap there that could be activated from timestop, that would be bad.

But the moment I realized this, I knew I had to put it on the table because of two simple facts:

One, Rionna is not expecting to be visited by a time-stopper.

Two, it could tell us absolutely everything we need to know.


I don't know how much I support this notion. I'm entirely certain Homura is capable of it -- it would take a lot less time than her setting up for Walpurgisnacht usually does, at a guess, and she has a clear seed. Furthermore, based on our inability to receive telepathy in a privacy sphere, Rionna shouldn't receive any alarms that might be triggered (if they are triggered -- time stop is a *powerful* thing).

I'm just not sure it's a good idea, even with all of that. It's... It's *insane.* Its probably in rather bad faith. It could totally alienate her.

It could also work. To hell with this business of knowing nothing and being unable to trust each other -- if we know *exactly* what is going on here, well, we've come this far with nothing.

It just happens to be completely insane. And involves Homura leaving Mitakihara, which I'm sure she has done before but still.
You ARE SANE. And a CATGIRL. This is a FUN notion. Despite those positives, I must decline.

I have had some other thoughts about how to short-circuit this. We totally could tip her over in a few spectacularly hacker capers. In addition, Japanese feudal history likes what you have to say, there are a couple of stunning examples of wars that concluded with this move.

But I want to explore the moral tension, and I want to leave the possibility of full success on our plate. The reason I say it that way, is that I think any way we short-circuit her plan leads to us having to defeat her solidly.

My goal of changing her is so much easier if we do it gradually?

My crazy option was :
Become her partner in enforcement. Change her death sentences by doing her work for her.
 
Hmm. Yeah, definitely can't send Homura alone, she needs someone that can fast-travel and keep her sane. Sayaka, and hope that Homura can keep her from blowing up when they figure out what's going on?

Recursing into Homura and Sayaka's Excellent Adventure would be... a thing. Yeah.
Honestly, even her going at all would be a tall ask. It means being thousands of miles away from Mitakihara, from Madoka, and if anything goes wrong with her timestop (which has been shown to be possible, with Kirika's antimagic!) she'll be too far away in case she needs to be there to protect her.

Psychologically, it's a lot less simple than people are imagining. And then there's the question of how even asking would impact Homura's view of Sabrina.

@Kaizuki
It's an interesting idea, but I think the downsides outweigh the upsides by quite a bit.
 
That or she isn't sufficiently certain about being able to take us, and doesn't evaluate the benefit as being strong enough, that she's willing to risk it.
Or it's over concerns of how others would react. Oh, and before I forget again.
Okay, I know both of these points have been brought up before, but you're basically arguing that Rionna could be a completely immoral monster capable of faking everything we've seen out of her so far. That's not really something that can be disproven, though I can give some evidence against it.

Suppose that Rionna is concerned about the reactions of others. Whose reactions would Rionna be concerned about? Let's assume that Kyubey or some other actor can show Rionna just deciding to gank Sabrina to literally anyone, casting her as someone just willing to kill anyone. Who might she be concerned about?

1. Her neighbours - with a very broad definition of neighbours including a lot of Western Europe. Edinburgh is prime territory that's hard to hold, and her neighbours are already terrified of her. This might push them into attacking her.
2. Her long term allies: she has to get information about grief manipulators somehow, and that information dries up if they're afraid of her.
3. Her targets: Who may become harder to hit because of this, somehow.
4. Kyubey: Maybe if she sticks to certain rules he won't screw her over.
5. Her enemies - there's nothing like 'she killed my friend too!' to really get together and wreck her day.

So Rionna goes to talk with Sabrina instead, and immediately starts provoking her in the middle of a bubble she has good reason to think prevents communication outside. This means that either a) she doesn't believe Sabrina / Sabrina isn't correct about the bubble; b) the bubble doesn't matter, because she can employ a magical girl who can read history or detect lies, etc.; or c) it's not actually because she's concerned about reaction to the deed. The first seems unlikely, because the bubble has been pretty consistent on blocking everything. The second is possibly true, but I find it hard to believe any of those possible options would be favourable to Rionna, because any kind of digging would indicate that Rionna had every intention of a fight breaking out there, and it also casts her power in the worst possible light. She would know this, too.


Okay, so what about power? How would it come about that Rionna wouldn't be sure about winning a fight with Sabrina et al., and how would she react? Well, either Rionna knew that from the beginning, possibly because of the number of grief manipulators she's encountered or because of prior research; or she didn't, and drew that conclusion sometime after arriving in Mitakihara. If it's the former, she came anyway, believing it worth the risk. If it's the latter, she may still be intent on her original goal, or she may be considering backing off. Any way she's putting on a very confident impression of being able to take Sabrina in a fight.

-If Rionna still intends to take Sabrina's power, her actions are probably designed to provoke Sabrina, and possibly cause Sabrina to underestimate her (because Rionna is 'arrogant'). What does she do if her provocation fails? Either the power is worth enough to her that she attacks Sabrina anyway, or she backs off to maintain her image (if she's concerned about that). If it's the latter those various hints we have about Rionna's need for this power must all be false, or not as strong as we believed. Or maybe she's playing an even deeper game to make Sabrina lower her guard, which implies she has an almost perfect social mask.

But the thing is - the best opportunity to gank Sabrina was still at the first meeting. None of the actions Rionna has taken have in any way caused Sabrina to lower her guard or put her in a worse position, unless she's lying about being unable to use her shades. The 'I am a damaged meguca' impression makes a person more wary, not less - and she could also just go along with Sabrina's plans, then gank her later. It would make Sabrina much less suspicious, and work better. We also have no reason to think that Rionna's lying about the shades, because the bubble shuts out everything we're aware of.

-If Rionna no longer intends to take Sabrina's power, she's backpedalling. In that case there's no reason for her to provoke Sabrina, unless that's a mistake. And that means that her composure can be broken by stress - her mask isn't perfect. Alternatively, she's playing the poor damaged meguca role. In that case, again, why wouldn't she accept Sabrina's help, lie, and go her merry way? She may be concerned about image, but that doesn't compare to a good chance of getting killed.

In any case, the reasoning behind Rionna's actions becomes really convoluted if either or both of those are her motivations with zero moral code behind them.
 
We could send Homura to Edinburgh.

One, Rionna is not expecting to be visited by a time-stopper.

Two, it could tell us absolutely everything we need to know.
Would be funny if Homura consider her as kindred soul when she finds out what's going on then again fighting magical Shades would alert Rionna.
Still we should never send Sayaka on those morally grey journey since she would lose her mind.

[x] Kaizuki
 
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My concerns with that plan would be that while Rionna might not have prepared for Time Stop, some of her preparations might be broad enough that they catch Homura anyways, and it sees Homura having to fight Rionna's defenses on her own, a world away from everyone. Furthermore, travel times. Homura can't catch a plane and we wouldn't be there to help her go faster, so it'll take a lot of time in timestop for her to travel to the other side of the world, significant times away from Mitakihara, from her friends and her mission, all for an end that is very tenuously connected to the thing that's kept her going.

Basically, I'm concerned that this idea would be very bad for Homura's wellbeing on more than one front.
About travel times, doesn't Sayaka had copied the Mobile Operation Fortress from Sabrina via Kazumi's power?
 
@Muramasa
No. It's a fair thing to be brought up. There's nothing wrong with considering the morality of doing -or not- something like this.
If your goal is to not have the thread be a dumpster fire locked down by mods, posts like this are not helping your goal.

Muramasa was being very generous in calling @Godwinson 's post 'a morality debate'.

Letting Rionna claim any more Meguca as Shades, is not acceptable to the majority of the thread. Nor is it the goal of any of the major votes.

There is one voter who has professed they are okay with that, which is less than the number who have voted to 'splode her gem'.
 
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