@mCooperative For the record, the chatter you're referring to was mostly to let threadbanned people make their opinions known, including people with voluntary threadbans like Aranfan.

Ah. That makes sense, yes.

I apologize for not considering that previously.

Save your passive-aggressive bullshit for someone who cares.

If that was directed at me, I will note that I am a shitty excuse for a human being who can't communicate worth a fuck so if I'm apologizing profusely and speaking like a fuckshithead it's because I can't communicate like a normal fucking person when I did something incorrect. I do not mean to be passive-aggressive, I simply have no clue how the hell actual people even talk, and I'm doing the best I can, because half the time I don't even think I-. Know how to be an actual person. I'm working on it, and I'm sorry if I come across poorly because of that.

@mCooperative If you think that the discord is feeling like a cabal, you can use the handy-dandy log-sharer bot I built specifically for the purpose of putting discord logs where the forum can see them. Go into #bot-abuse and invoke @vebyast-quote-bot /help for more instructions. Instead of, you know, re-starting a months-old flame war and making everyone even angrier than they already were.

I will keep that in mind for the future, and again, I apologize.
 
We know that Riona considers shading someone to be a fate worse than death or witching out, both because this is how she "makes an example" and because magic use costs grief and there must be some reason she takes shades instead of just killing people or witching them out.
I don't think she does.
I don't see how making an example of them implies that it's worse than death.
Regarding her reasons, I'd assume that it is easier for her to do, but more importantly, it gives her access to their powers. Of course she prefers it. (Another possible reason is that she may not consider it to be as bad as death, but I personally consider that less likely to be the primary reason even if it is true.)

Actually, that's probably a valid question to ask her.
 
I'd hardly call it a mistaken belief when we don't know. Fact of the matter is you are making a lot of assumptions about how her power and the involved metaphysics work.

This is true. There are a lot assumptions being made. But the problem is that we aren't the only ones to have made assumptions about this: see Rionna's comments in response to our questions where she blows off our concerns about the state those souls are in.

I guarantee you that if we had her powers, the *first* question we would have asked would have been what would happen to anyone's soul that we 'took.' The fact that she has not even *considered* it...

Thematically, all signs point to this being Bad JuJu -- most especially her utter lack of concern for whether or not it is, in fact, Bad JuJu. She has actively demonstrated a lack of care for the answer to that question. It's-- there is controversy about lethal injection when it results in painful death, yes? This goes beyond saying that you don't care about whether lethal injection causes pain, in here, Rionna has said that she doesn't care if what she's doing is fucking torture or not.

That is not okay.

Because another form of eternally torturing souls is called a grief seed. And our entire purpose is to remove that particular affront to morality from existence.

Once you register that that is what Rionna has said, the questions involved become very different. We move from "is she a socio/psychopath/otherwise an immoral nutjob" to "what do we do, there's a person presenting as an immoral nutjob in front of us."

Does she have things we want? Sure. Is she one of them? As she is, fucking hell no, not given what she has said.

Now, it might vaguely be possible she's just being an idiot, or something. We *do* know she's supposed to be bad at social. Could she just be, like, *really* clueless to the point of never having considered this shit? It's possible, ignorance can be really good at pretending to be Evil.

Everybody here wants to give her at least a single chance -- that is how Sabrina operates. Throw what she's said in her face, show her some of the morality arguments here, see what her response to them is.

But given the way she's been talking, people are (wisely) expecting a very large probability that she won't bite. And if she doesn't bite, if she won't or can't accept that what she is saying is frankly *wrong*, *disgusting*, and potentially *evil* by virtue of *not caring* whether or not she has been torturing souls for however long--

In good conscience, I would not be able to let someone like that walk free without some kind of leash.

We do not *have* a suitable leash.
 
Sabrina finds people who have done horrible things, and redeems them if she can. She doesn't kill people right away, because she thinks she can help them instead. It's our fucking M.O.!

If it were just me voting? We'd probably have a pile of corpses, because of everyone who I thought was neither redeemable nor useful enough to deal with. I'm trigger-happy now, and I was far more so when I first joined this thread. Everyone always pushed to show mercy and redeem them.

Now, when we're faced with someone who could potentially do a tremendous amount of good and is willing to talk, you want to eliminate her instantly. That's not us taking the high road and doing the right thing, that's us being afraid and quickly disposing of a potential threat. I don't find that terribly objectionable, even if I think it might be a waste, but it's not really very Sabrina.

I know, right? I don't normally post in this thread because I find it very hard to adapt my thought process to the idea of things being fixable. I always just default to "Let's be realistic about this", and things consistently go better than I expect.

If it were up to me alone, Oriko would've died the moment she sat next to Sabrina on that bus at the very start. Kirika would be dead too, obviously. Sendai Group? Mostly dead or permanently gemmed. Letting Hijiri go? What is this nonsense? Don't even start with Anri, who gassed a whole building of people for shits and giggles.

So, it feels really strange to advocate against the pessimistic course of action here. The level of sudden bloodthirst in the thread took me off guard, honestly. This girl came to our city as a guest, and has neither threatened nor provoked us in any way, and yet there's a strong will to suddenly attack her without any regard for the consequences and risks. Is this how Sabrina's New Meguca Society is going to be built? Will we go to Tokyo, meet some unpleasant magical girls with skeletons in their closet, and decide to gem them too?

Given how we've dealt with our enemies in the past, I have to believe the reactions are primarily motivated by fear. It's not an unreasonable fear, Riona is very powerful, and one of the few people we've met capable of seriously hurting us and our friends. But that's all the more reason to navigate this conversation with as much care and deliberation as possible. Maybe it'll be necessary to take her down before we're done, it's hard to say at this point. But that decision should be made after obtaining as much information as possible and meticulously weighing all the pros and cons, and not based on an emotional impulse to punish the evildoer.

Remember, her being strong means that, if we fight, she could actually win. There's a realistic chance of her killing us and ending the quest on the spot.
 
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For fucks sake, I go to bed and when I wake up, it's a shitstorm.


You know, under the circumstances, I'd like to point out a name that has not come up in the discussions (untile Roomba ninja'd me just now): Hijiri. Hijiri's wish was basically to commit murder. In PMKM, Hijiri tried to destroy an entire city and was witching out magical girls and normal people. And the last time we saw her, she was completely unwilling to open any sort of dialogue or negotiate in any way.

The thread voted to let her go.

I don't see any reason why we shouldn't be willing to give Riona the same chance at redemption as Hijiri just because there's no manga about her life.

I'm going back to sleep now, because I have work tonight.

[x] Onmur


1, just wanna point out, and I don't want to offend anyone, but if I do offend anyone, I'm really sorry, but the Discord was really reading like a secret Discord cabal for a bit there, and it's sorta vacillating back and forth, and definitely not all of the relevant bits seem to be making it into the thread, so, uh, @Firnagzen , is that... How is that, right now?
I personally appreciate you telling us. Us non-Discord-users have no way of knowing when the Discord is being used in ways that it's not supposed to be that undermine the entire purpose of this thread, and in violation of the rules Firn established.
 
Remember, her being strong means that, if we fight, she could actually win. There's a realistic chance of her killing us and ending the quest on the spot.
Conversely, if she can't be socialed and has to be fought, as has been the case with nearly every single person we've ever attempted to social, this is the best chance we will ever have at taking her.
 
For fucks sake, I go to bed and when I wake up, it's a shitstorm.


You know, under the circumstances, I'd like to point out a name that has not come up in the discussions (untile Roomba ninja'd me just now): Hijiri. Hijiri's wish was basically to commit murder. In PMKM, Hijiri tried to destroy an entire city and was witching out magical girls and normal people. And the last time we saw her, she was completely unwilling to open any sort of dialogue or negotiate in any way.

The thread voted to let her go.

I don't see any reason why we shouldn't be willing to give Riona the same chance at redemption as Hijiri just because there's no manga about her life.

I'm going back to sleep now, because I have work tonight.

[x] Onmur



I personally appreciate you telling us. Us non-Discord-users have no way of knowing when the Discord is being used in ways that it's not supposed to be that undermine the entire purpose of this thread, and in violation of the rules Firn established.
the reason why half the thread wants to just gank her right here and now is cause they want to get their white knight boners bloody my friend.
 
For fucks sake, I go to bed and when I wake up, it's a shitstorm.


You know, under the circumstances, I'd like to point out a name that has not come up in the discussions (untile Roomba ninja'd me just now): Hijiri. Hijiri's wish was basically to commit murder. In PMKM, Hijiri tried to destroy an entire city and was witching out magical girls and normal people. And the last time we saw her, she was completely unwilling to open any sort of dialogue or negotiate in any way.

The thread voted to let her go.

I don't see any reason why we shouldn't be willing to give Riona the same chance at redemption as Hijiri just because there's no manga about her life.

I'm going back to sleep now, because I have work tonight.

[x] Onmur

We let Hijiri go because we caught her before she commited any of her canonical crimes and we had reason to believe that she was sufficiently divergent from that timeline. Our only reason for considering stopping her by force was because of Meta-knowledge, but we already made a moral point about not punishing Oriko for what her alternate self did. We might have been wrong to let Hijiri go, but we were being consistent with our established principles.

Riona is doing abominable shit RIGHT NOW and isn't showing any signs that she gives a shit. It's not even SLIGHTLY the same as the Hijiri incident.

I personally appreciate you telling us. Us non-Discord-users have no way of knowing when the Discord is being used in ways that it's not supposed to be that undermine the entire purpose of this thread, and in violation of the rules Firn established.

Exceptions are made for people who can't participate in the thread; they just don't get a votecrafting rights or anything.
 
I know, right! I don't normally post in this thread because I find it very hard to adapt my thought process to the idea of things being fixable. I always just default to "Let's be realistic about this", and things consistently go better than I expect.

If it were up to me alone, Oriko would've died the moment she sat next to Sabrina on that bus at the very start. Kirika would be dead too, obviously. Sendai Group? Mostly dead or permanently gemmed. Letting Hijiri go? What is this nonsense? Don't even start with Anri, who gassed a whole building of people for shits and giggles.

So, it feels really strange to advocate against the pessimistic course of action here. The level of sudden bloodthirst in the thread took me off guard, honestly. This girl came to our city as a guest, and has neither threatened nor provoked us in any way, and yet there's a strong will to suddenly attack her without any regard for the consequences and risks. Is this how Sabrina's New Meguca Society is going to be built? Will we go to Tokyo, meet some unpleasant magical girls with skeletons in their closet, and decide to gem them too?

Given how we've dealt with our enemies in the past, I have to believe the reactions are primarily motivated by fear. It's not an unreasonable fear, Riona is very powerful, and one of the few people we've met capable of seriously hurting us and our friends. But that's all the more reason to navigate this conversation with as much care and deliberation as possible. Maybe it'll be necessary to take her down before we're done, it's hard to say at this point. But that decision should be made after obtaining as much information as possible and meticulously weighing all the pros and cons, and not based on an emotional impulse to punish the evildoer.

Remember, her being strong means that, if we fight, she could actually win. There's a realistic chance of her killing us and ending the quest on the spot.
This reminds me of a though I had and forgot earlier.

In the year 2011, Sabrina Tomoe neé Vee reached across the world to bring a new era of peace and hope to all Magical Girls, and later on would move on to help every single human being she could.

Her first act was to find and exterminate every Magical Girl who could potentially pose a threat to her.


This is not how we want to be remembered. :V
 
We let Hijiri go because we caught her before she commited any of her canonical crimes and we had reason to believe that she was sufficiently divergent from that timeline. Our only reason for considering stopping her by force was because of Meta-knowledge, but we already made a moral point about not punishing Oriko for what her alternate self did. We might have been wrong to let Hijiri go, but we were being consistent with our established principles.

Riona is doing abominable shit RIGHT NOW and isn't showing any signs that she gives a shit. It's not even SLIGHTLY the same as the Hijiri incident.



Exceptions are made for people who can't participate in the thread; they just don't get a votecrafting rights or anything.



Knock this the fuck off.
i dont see why i should, half the people here heard about soul taking and decided she needed to die with no point for redemption.
even though redemption seems to be the main thing everyone has being going for with pretty much everyone so far. but ok.
 
I seriously need you to explain yourself here. How in the fuck is it the most responsible use physically possible? She doesn't HAVE to make examples out of people by stealing their souls and enslaving them forever. That doesn't mean anything to muggles, they can't affirm the example she fucking made.
you know, I really don't think there's an answer I could give you that you would accept
 
This reminds me of a though I had and forgot earlier.

In the year 2011, Sabrina Tomoe neé Vee reached across the world to bring a new era of peace and hope to all Magical Girls, and later on would move on to help every single human being she could.

Her first act was to find and exterminate every Magical Girl who could potentially pose a threat to her.


Why stop there? There's a confirmed afterlife that Rionna's keeping souls from, after all, so why not just send everyone there right away and avoid this whole "witching" and "magical girl" issue. :V

Don't bring afterlives into morality talk, it never ends well.
 
In the whole 'worse than death discussion' please consider how somebody might end up with a wish that lets them claim souls. More specifically, how a young Irish (catholic?) girl might have made a wish like that.

When she mentioned that her powers worked on normals, she probably figured that out by wishing explicitly to save a loved one's soul from eternal damnation. Catholic hell is not a fun place, and pretty much everybody qualifies!

Riona probably sees claiming souls forever as a mercy. Because hell is the ultimate fate worse than death.
 
Why stop there? There's a confirmed afterlife that Rionna's keeping souls from, after all, so why not just send everyone there right away and avoid this whole "witching" and "magical girl" issue. :V
Genius-
Don't bring afterlives into morality talk, it never ends well.
Wait but, you just did. :V

If Rionna's power has few-to-none direct combat applications, especially at low levels of mastery, I could see her being forced to make use of deceased magical girl wraiths to survive.

Imagine landing in Worm with Glastig Ulaine's power.
Didn't Nadia say Riona's power makes her very strong against meguca and Witches?
 
Didn't Nadia say Riona's power makes her very strong against meguca and Witches?

At current mastery levels. We don't know what her situation was like, starting out. And at the very beginning, with no wraiths to start with, she'd have had... limited self defense options.

That doesn't make necessarily it moral, of course, but it's easy to see how she might have started down her current path.
 
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In the whole 'worse than death discussion' please consider how somebody might end up with a wish that lets them claim souls. More specifically, how a young Irish (catholic?) girl might have made a wish like that.

When she mentioned that her powers worked on normals, she probably figured that out by wishing explicitly to save a loved one's soul from eternal damnation. Catholic hell is not a fun place, and pretty much everybody qualifies!

Riona probably sees claiming souls forever as a mercy. Because hell is the ultimate fate worse than death.

I can sympathize with that, if we can confirm that she can't see post-mortem souls she didn't bind.

Except she's done it to at least some people who were on some level not fuckasses, so I still want explanations.
 
If Rionna's power has few-to-none direct combat applications, especially at low levels of mastery, I could see her being forced to make use of deceased magical girl wraiths to survive.

Imagine landing in Worm with Glastig Ulaine's power.
did you happen to forget that she can rip peoples fucking soul out of their body?
yeah "few-to-none direct combat applications" she only needs the fucking one.
 
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