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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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HeroCycle said:
Negotiation basics - the one asking is the weaker party. Rionna came here asking. Mind the gap.


These are almost, but not quite, what we require to deal with Rionna?
I support we need to keep these top of our list:

### "Trust" is foreign to Rionna.
### The first thing she says, is the most important thing she thinks.
- And Rionna is assuming the same about US.


That's why my concept of truncating her question to "not sure why, but I'm a good person. Doing good things" We have proof.
I think debating our relative humanity is wrong, and a digression. Talk about a wish origin is dangerous. If we must opine regarding our amnesia, stating that "It might be part of my Wish" is more like Kirika, and more normal.


Both are big ticket. Why would we put Grief capacitors up front? Because we need them first! Those will let us collect all the Seeds. AuraTwilight seems to imply to me that we may even have the path to de-witch, just not the power to walk it. Not sure myself.
Let me answer in terms of Rionna. -
In general, first things are most important things for her. (She must have gone through hell in an Irish community with verbal skills like that!)
So we talk about storing Grief with our powers first. It isn't as easy, but she will pay attention - there isn't anything else to take her attention away from it yet.
Then we can move on to de-witching. From the theory angle, things like how to move a soul, how to attach the soul, how to prepare a body, deal with memories, etc.
We can offer to hunt a witch with her, and demo everything we know. Actually, a good SCIENCE practice.
Only after do we go on about the Clear seed.

Because the Clear Seed is her signal to leave. Her bank gets made in one shot. Magic for life, and a good long one at that. Once she can have one, nobody might hear from her again.

Our way out of that is to demonstrate that the lonesome road isn't the only road.

Of course, this depends - who is willing to post the model the have of Rionna as we know her right now?
I just did. She's self-centered, and has reverted a bit in maturity. She is rational, but not wise - there are a lot of things she isn't noticing. She has morality, just not the same as ours.


Our interview practice so far is terrible. We are letting the guest rampage unchecked all over the place. Without gaining more story from her, guessing in the mist is all we will ever do.

Open invite- Explain her to me better?
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I'm not sure about her motivations, HeroCycle. Infinite Cleansing is nice and all, but she's proven she can get by without, even while leaving her city to travel the world in search of someone like us and punishing pretenders.

Maybe her visit has something to do with her sister? Just a hypothesis.

If that's the case, it's clearly a touchy subject Oriko specifically warned us against mentioning, so we'll have to wait for Riona to tell us herself.

Anyway, this is all just wanton speculation, so take it with a grain of salt.
 
[X] Redshirt Army

Yup, that covers everything important, makes it very clear where we stand, and doesn't give away too much. Looks good to me.
 
Raiseth said:
I'm not sure about her motivations, HeroCycle. Infinite Cleansing is nice and all, but she's proven she can get by without, even while leaving her city to travel the world in search of someone like us and punishing pretenders.

Maybe her visit has something to do with her sister? Just a hypothesis.
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I can't prove either case, and it could be both. But certainly, her desiring life is a valid interpretation.

It is what she wants to present to us. She may have -no idea- that a witch could be saved, after debunking and punishing multiple frauds.
Firnagzen said:
"To be sure," she snaps, rolling her eyes. "I've tried, everyone's tried, everyone wants to do what you can do.
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Firnagzen said:
"What... no, well. Why did you come here? What do you want from me?"

"I want what everyone wants," Rionna says, and fixes an unblinking gaze on you. "I see people's Souls. I know what happens. I want what you have."
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You will note that it says "what everyone wants," and thus can't mean resurrection. This line says to me, she wants "life."

I think our perfect win is in handing her "life with friends." If her sister were to have Witched, we will have literally no problems retaining her services. I could only be so lucky? Otherwise we will have to work a pay gradient. Start at something that isn't 'impossible,' then we can take another step.

Anann said:
Hi all! Long time reader, first time poster.

Yikes. There's a difficult decision
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"Always, like this."

Welcome! Make sure to vote!
:ninja:
Redshirt Army said:
I have a sneaking suspicion her sister witched out, and that her "punishment" of fake soul cleansers has as much to do with them giving her false hope as it does them causing girls to witch out.
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Depending upon how old religion and grimdark Firn wants to go, she knows where to find an orchard...
 
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[X] Redshirt Army
Adhoc vote count started by LendvaV on Jul 27, 2018 at 8:00 PM, finished with 141659 posts and 16 votes.
  • [X] Clarify: You can help.
    [X] But first, ask Riona to explain 'Soul Stealing' and 'Making examples'.
    -[X] Get details. You can't fault her actions past, but you'd like to make a world where it's possible to do better. Would she be willing to try?
    [X] Talk about Clear Seeds. Explain that you're distributing them to groups you trust, as a stopgap measure. Show Hildegarde and Aurora.
    -[X] Share your observations, explain your procedures. Ask Riona for her professional opinion.
    --[X] Explain the need for a more moral solution, and your hopes for, eventually, after much study, de-Witching. Ask for her help.
    [X] If she brings it up again: Share your theory of being created by magic: The unusual state of your soul, and having personal amnesia... but significant knowledge of the magical girl system, enough to know to make your wish.
    -[X] Ask what Riona's powers see in you.
    [X] Ongoing: Keep in contact with Mami via Grief
    [x] Regarding soul stealing:
    -[x] Ask for details. What conditions do the souls experience? Better than a Grief Seed? Can she put the souls back in their body?
    -[x] If yes, you're tentatively in favor of it as a last-ditch medical or protective measure. Might be better than something like the Freezer.
    [x] Show her a clear seed.
    -[x] Your roadblocks right now are communication and figuring out how to actually fix what is broken.
    -[x] Would her "soul stealing" power help you relocate a soul to a more therapeutic environment?
    [x] Regarding grief spreaders and "making an example":
    -[x] You're not going to ask for details. Is it better or worse than witching out?
    -[x] If worse: break to voting.
    -[x] You can tolerate it as a least bad decision... which it may have been before you came along.
    -[x] If she finds any more grief spreaders, she calls you and you will help her put a stop to it in a more productive fashion. You should even be able to save her the cost of plane tickets.
    -[x] Acceptable?
    [x] I'd love to be able to give people my powers, but the best I've got so far is clear seeds, and since I'm also working on de-witching, that's a stopgap at best.
    [X] Topic is artificial Grief seeds. Explain why.
    -[X] We want her help.
    [X] She gave us a generic answer before. Not enough. We need to know her.
    -[X] Ask Rionna to list her goals. How old is Rionna? Personal history?
    -[X] Don't follow up about sister
    -[X] insist on talking about her self interest.
    -[X] understand she might not be philanthropic, and still be good.
    -[X] Observe if she is actually different than above, interview in that subject more.
    [X] Talk about what she has to trade - how her powers work. What she does in her city.
    [X] Rionna is speaking like she hasn't trusted anyone in a long time.
    -[X] Explain our real magic is about working together. We will show her.
    [X] Other points: we are the good person we want to be. Describe our soul. Meet our friends, and find out. How does her telepathy work?
    [X] De-witching might come up now.
    [X] Go over points of agreement again.
    [X] Show off Aurora. Happy details. Ask for visual summary.
    -[X] We should hunt together, make another, she can watch.
    [x] Army of shirts colored Red
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I personally wouldn't be surprised if the whole seeing the soul thing can work as a pseudo lie detector by giving her clues as to how other people are feeling. At least, that's why I think that she's acting as she does right now. Maybe she just wants people to get straight to the point.
 
nanashi said:
I personally wouldn't be surprised if the whole seeing the soul thing can work as a pseudo lie detector by giving her clues
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I am glad to see you also like this.
nanashi said:
that's why I think that she's acting as she does right now.
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To my mind, her style of action needs an explanation, and this is parsimonious.

The important part of the conversation for us is to get more detail out of her, IMHO. Rionna is trying to "win on momentum."
 
Vebyast said:
If her actions are sufficiently reprehensible that we can't work with her, I'm not sure I'd be willing to let her walk away either.
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I'm honestly not certain where that line is. We're working with Homura, so clearly a few more-or-less justified murders is below our limit. And while Corbeau from PMTM was probably an extreme example, it's easy to see how grief controllers willing to forcibly put grief into other people's soul gems could easily become massive issues.

I'd be willing to excuse a lot when it comes to treatment of grief gucas of Corbeau's stripe. Less so when it comes to collateral damage of bystanders or more innocent grief controllers in the course of exercising her "judgments".
 
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Redshirt Army said:
I'm honestly not certain where that line is. We're working with Homura, so clearly a few more-or-less justified murders is below our limit. And while Corbeau from PMTM was probably an extreme example, it's easy to see how grief controllers willing to forcibly put grief into other people's soul gems could easily become massive issues.

I'd be willing to excuse a lot when it comes to treatment of grief gucas of Corbeau's stripe. Less so when it comes to collateral damage of bystanders or more innocent grief controllers in the course of exercising her "judgments".
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We don't reject Kyouko for letting people get eaten by familiars either. I suspect the line is drawn mostly on the basis of how easily we can make them stop. Homura and Oriko won't kill people as long as we can stop the timeline from going to shit (and if we can't, a lot of people die of other causes regardless), Kyouko will let the witch population in Kasamino be hunted if we give her other sources of cleansing, the Fukushima group are willing to drop their other activities for an alliance with us etc. The Sendai group, on the other hand, only stopped after we decisively beat their asses, so we had to do that first.
 
By the way, the comment of taking Souls pretty much solidifies the idea that Riona is Sayaka's and Oriko's killer.

At least, Sayaka's death was supposed to leave no marks, while the potential Orikiller matches Riona's description.

Now, why would Riona kill... Sayaka? Why would anybody, really? Specially civillian Sayaka. There's a possibility she takes Sayaka's soul, and Oriko didn't bother to look farther than that; perhaps Riona would later on return Sayaka's soul. Maybe Oriko only sees the worst paths.

But... how does Feathers play into this? And why would Riona kill civillian Sayaka? Is Sayaka actually an angel, to call attention to herself like that?

As for Riona killing Oriko, that's probably easier to explain. Oriko could still easily go on a murder spree, and Riona would probably deSoul her as soon as they cross paths.
 
And our salvation work just keeps piling up. Now that one of us can speak with animals, are we responsible for cleansing them in some circumstances? Headline was: "Orca mother keeps her dead calf afloat in extraordinary display of grief ."

As of right now our focus should be on doing each of the things we can do correctly.

That requires us to understand the other people around us.

It is more than listening.

We are still having trouble understanding sometimes.

Everybody work on that?
 
Redshirt Army said:
I'm honestly not certain where that line is. We're working with Homura, so clearly a few more-or-less justified murders is below our limit. And while Corbeau from PMTM was probably an extreme example, it's easy to see how grief controllers willing to forcibly put grief into other people's soul gems could easily become massive issues.

I'd be willing to excuse a lot when it comes to treatment of grief gucas of Corbeau's stripe. Less so when it comes to collateral damage of bystanders or more innocent grief controllers in the course of exercising her "judgments".
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[x] Do you consider her trustworthy enough to proceed with the explanations?
-[x] Not yet. The details matter.

[x] Ask for details about "soul stealing" and "making examples of".

[x] Does she understand that such things stop now?
-[x] She doesn't need to be trustworthy to be told that you can, intend to, and will make those extremes unnecessary.
--[x] And if it's unnecessary, it becomes just another cruelty you intend to stamp out.
 
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Vebyast said:
[x] Do you consider her trustworthy enough to proceed with the explanations?
-[x] Not yet. The details matter.

[x] Ask for details about "soul stealing" and "making examples of".

[x] Does she understand that such things stop now?
-[x] She doesn't need to be trustworthy to be told that you can, intend to, and will make those extremes unnecessary.
--[x] And if it's unnecessary, it becomes just another cruelty you intend to stamp out.
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A big hero line of reasoning to be sure!
IMHO, in character for us, but not quite ready for it yet. A few things have to happen first.

Skipping those other steps would limit us in the future, if we have a future with Rionna.
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HeroCycle said:
- who is willing to post the model they have of Rionna as we know her right now?
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I invite you to make your explanation of your vote complete - display the theory behind it. Why will it work?

Running the interview is our current task. Distraction isn't going to help our ability to do what is right. Information is what will help.

If you wish to focus upon her criminality, be more like an investigator. When the perp starts telling the real story of the crime, the investigator becomes a nearly ideal conversation partner. It isn't antagonistic at all.

This vote seems to be about getting her to conform. Right?

What steps come before joining our world view? -------------------------------------------------------in b4 hugtehbrina, let's see a cooler move.
 
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Vebyast said:
[x] Does she understand that such things stop now?
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Phrasing this as a demand makes us come across as antagonistic. That's bad in both scenarios.

If her actions are ultimately acceptable enough that we don't take immediate action, then this phrasing makes securing her cooperation - including on this topic - more difficult. Given the state of the magical girl condition, it's difficult for Riona to trust our ability to truly change things. If we convince her of our chances of success, it'll likely have to be over time.

And if her actions are unacceptable to the point where we need to take action, then demanding she cease gives her forewarning that she may need to incapacitate us - and someone like Riona is someone we really don't want making a pre-emptive strike. Sabrina's reflexes are slow by meguca standards, and Mami is outside our info bubble and can't see what's happening.

Hypothetically there might be a middle ground, where Rionna is unacceptable enough to not work with, but not so far beyond the pale that we need to act immediately.

But... it's a very narrow middle ground. I'm not going to advocate for refusing to work with Rionna as a matter of principle, if the practical effect of that is that without Rionna's expertise, saving magical girls becomes significantly more difficult.
 
You know, I've finally found how we can be the absolutely worst at Social. Soulguca will bow down before our inferior Social skillz!

[Q] Start shipping Riona with Ono Megane mid-conversation.
-[Q] If Riona asks, describe her in meticulous detail.

I'm sorry I couldn't resist.
I REGRET NOTHING
 
I think we should ask Riona what she sees when we feed happy magic to the clear seed. At the very least, I think it might give some credibility to the dewitching idea or get us soke brownie points for trying. I want to see if she sees us reversing the meguca to witch transformation. I was wondering if all we need for dewitching is to add more happy magic.
 
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Raiseth said:
You know, I've finally found how we can be the absolutely worst at Social. Soulguca will bow down before our inferior Social skillz!

[Q] Start shipping Riona with Ono Megane mid-conversation.
-[Q] If Riona asks, describe her in meticulous detail.

I'm sorry I couldn't resist.
I REGRET NOTHING
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How do we know this would hit the intended note with Rionna? Bad at Social means not knowing, after all...
Rionna might be all "I admire her , for her purity." lol

nanashi said:
I think we should ask Riona what she sees when we feed happy magic to the clear seed. At the very least, I think it might give some credibility to the dewitching idea or get us soke brownie points for trying. I want to see if she sees us reversing the meguca to witch transformation. I was wondering if all we need for dewitching is to add more happy magic.
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Capital notion. Please keep us reminded, even though it is my thought that we must get her thinking about the Clear Seed after we have gone through a bunch of other concerns.

Comedy!
Oriko is in an impossible version of Mitakihara. Is it weighing upon her, having every strong Magical Girl that possibly kills her on the same team?

Can this become fanart? Perhaps based off of this?
 
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