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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Onmur said:
---[] Keeping Oriko contained will see her goodwill dry up and turn her back to her old ways.
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*Dead Homura stare.*
*Pulls out a gun.*
*Safety clicks off.*

"I understand."

Edit: More helpfully, Oriko and Kirika are living at our good graces. Be careful what ideas you reinforce in Homura, because there's precious little we can actually do to stop her from taking drastic action if she thinks she has to.
 
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GiftOfLove said:
*Dead Homura stare.*
*Pulls out a gun.*
*Safety clicks off.*

"I understand."

Edit: More helpfully, Oriko and Kirika are living at our good graces. Be careful what ideas you reinforce in Homura, because there's precious little we can actually do to stop her from taking drastic action if she thinks she has to.
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I know, we obviously need to approach things from a possitive angle, about what good can happen, rather than what can go wrong, I'm just throwing ideas.
 
So, what if we don't bring up freedom just yet?

[] Homura and Sayaka.
-[] Talk about O&K:
--[] About Oriko confessing her crimes. Touch on problems with meguca and the (justice) system and propose Oriko confessing to the Mikis. (After we bring the Shizukis on board).
--[] Oriko was caught, has been helping save lives, but hasn't actually owned up to her own crimes.
--[Q] The house arrest doesn't really count, that's more Oriko having survivor's guilt and everyone else actively blaming her for it so... yeah.
--[] Cut to voting.
 
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blast flame said:
We're talking about multiplying grief? Man the Incubators listening in must be e x c i t e d to see that experiment.
....
Well maybe not excited because of the not feeling emotions thing but whatever their closest equivalent is.
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On which note the whole "blow up the universe idea" makes me consider Banach-Tarski may require infinite computing power. Infinite computing power may require infinite energy.

What I'm wonder is: Can you blow up the universe by thinking too hard?

Vebyast said:
O&K would not have access to cleansing in prison and would witch out within days if not hours. They'd be separated, and I guarantee that Kirika would tolerate that for about two hours before breaking out, finding Oriko, and breaking her out too. Kyubey already covered the entire thing up, so O&K would be unable to claim responsibility in the first place. Even if they could, the police would demand an explanation, which would be either wiped by Kyubey (making it useless) or not wiped by Kyubey (resulting in the collapse of the masquerade).
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I'll point out here that Kyuubey covered up our involvement. Given the fertilizer that was used for bombs at least Oriko and Kirika may well have used entirely mundane means to start the fire, and possibly to break in as well, which wouldn't necessarily need to be covered up if they weren't seen.

Onmur said:
So, what if we don't bring up freedom just yet?

[] Homura and Sayaka.
-[] Talk about O&K:
--[] About Oriko confessing her crimes. Touch on problems with meguca and the system and propose Oriko confessing to the Mikis. (After we bring the Shizukis on board).
--[] Oriko was caught, has been helping save lives, but hasn't actually owned up to her own crimes.
--[Q] The house arrest doesn't really count, that's more Oriko having survivor's guilt and everyone else actively blaming her for it so... yeah.
--[] Cut to voting.
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I think I'd rather go into this with the more open goal based vote style. We should have the space for it.

Beyond that, I'm of the opinion that the proper way about it is to start by asking their own wishes on the matter, and what they'd consider an ideal endpoint.
 
I'm concerned about the idea of reading the Mikis in on this now, given that we have so much in the air and on our plates right now. Have we interacted with them at all, do we have any gauge of their character and persons, beyond how Sayaka turned out, and I suppose the teasing Sayaka about us being her waifu? Like- before we try and rest a negotiation on reading them in on this, maybe evaluate more what the likely outcome of that course of action would be, what the likely responses would be and what we'd be expected to do afterwards. How much we would be willing or unwilling to hand the question of Oriko and Kirika's status over- because they are our allies at this point, Madokami willing, and useful ones, even beyond their status as friends. And, meguca life being what it is, I'm not certain there's actually a justice system on earth able to fairly handle situations like theirs. I suspect the best we can do is try and peice together justice from local practices, fit with a bias toward forgiveness, utility, and prevention, over actual punitive measures. And maybe that's just me, but even so, I feel like we need an evaluation of what we think we'll need to respond to if we bring this to the Mikis, so we're not just flying by the seat of our MOF. Because if that's liable to consume too much time and utility, tabling it until after Walmartnight may be a better idea to suggest? I guess we'll need to get a lot of people in on Walpurgisnacht for evac and prep and such, but...

I don't really even know what I'm saying.

The Phoenixian said:
Beyond that, I'm of the opinion that the proper way about it is to start by asking their own wishes on the matter, and what they'd consider an ideal endpoint.
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I agree with this approach. We work best, as I guess I've been trying to figure out how to say, when we have as much information as possible to work out how to tailor our responses to.
 
The house arrest is a status quo that allows all of the involved parties to keep ignoring the problems at hand, ourselves included. For the sake of everyone involved, we need a way to move past it. Not necessarily now, and not necessarily by giving O&K more freedom, but some kind of change that serves to actually address the underlying issues.

Let's just ask Sayaka what would satisfy her, as redress for what Oriko did. She is the primary aggrieved party here, and it should be her initiative that points to a resolution. She might ask for something unreasonable, but it will provide a baseline for further negotiations.

For Homura, there's no solution for reasons already mentioned, and I think we should just confirm with her that she will allow O&K to help against Walpy. Then, we can let O&K know that they need to grit their teeth until the big fight, at which point the status quo will change a lot, and we'll be able to use "They helped!" as an argument to Homura, which I expect to count for a lot with her.

I don't think opening another conversation with the intent of lessening the restrictions on Oriko and Kirika will achieve anything. We're going to appear pushy, trying to force our desired outcome on our friends in spite of their very reasonable objections.
 
mCooperative said:
I'm concerned about the idea of reading the Mikis in on this now, given that we have so much in the air and on our plates right now. Have we interacted with them at all, do we have any gauge of their character and persons, beyond how Sayaka turned out, and I suppose the teasing Sayaka about us being her waifu? Like- before we try and rest a negotiation on reading them in on this, maybe evaluate more what the likely outcome of that course of action would be, what the likely responses would be and what we'd be expected to do afterwards. How much we would be willing or unwilling to hand the question of Oriko and Kirika's status over- because they are our allies at this point, Madokami willing, and useful ones, even beyond their status as friends. And, meguca life being what it is, I'm not certain there's actually a justice system on earth able to fairly handle situations like theirs. I suspect the best we can do is try and peice together justice from local practices, fit with a bias toward forgiveness, utility, and prevention, over actual punitive measures. And maybe that's just me, but even so, I feel like we need an evaluation of what we think we'll need to respond to if we bring this to the Mikis, so we're not just flying by the seat of our MOF. Because if that's liable to consume too much time and utility, tabling it until after Walmartnight may be a better idea to suggest? I guess we'll need to get a lot of people in on Walpurgisnacht for evac and prep and such, but...

I don't really even know what I'm saying.



I agree with this approach. We work best, as I guess I've been trying to figure out how to say, when we have as much information as possible to work out how to tailor our responses to.
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We would not talk with the Mikis about this until we at least had the Shizukis on board, at least.

We have interacted with Sayaka's dad, Miki Kenji, who seemed to be a normal adult (who also teased Sayaka about us being her girlfriend). We didn't interact with Miki Miho because she was unconscious.
 
I kinda want to test out moving grief along higher dimensional axes, even if just to finally figure out what the fuck Firn said I was "getting close to" in thinking about things. That's been bugging me for months.
 
Do we have a FAQ I can consult about grief seed experiments? Can't remember if anyone brought up the thought that we might need a body to continue the reversal process.
 
Godwinson said:
I kinda want to test out moving grief along higher dimensional axes, even if just to finally figure out what the fuck Firn said I was "getting close to" in thinking about things. That's been bugging me for months.
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Yup. Now that Hitomi isn't going to be here and "liquid grief!" tests aren't a thing, I'm half tempted to add some kind of attempt to fold or manipulate grief as a short finisher to cap off the session.

Relatedly, there's also that "4d movement in the barrier" experiment. Might be nice to try that when we hunt tonight.

GiftOfLove said:
Do we have a FAQ I can consult about grief seed experiments? Can't remember if anyone brought up the thought that we might need a body to continue the reversal process.
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Our list of scientific experiments is in Sabrina's day planner, under the "SCIENCE! planner" tab.
 
Okay, so one of the things we need to bring up (particularly with Homura) is making a Grief lie detector construct. A robust one--one that can detect partial truths, technical truths that hide dishonest intentions, etc. We'd test it out on ourselves to make sure that it works. And then we'd have Homura and Sabrina question Oriko and Kirika with it, to lay to rest once and for all Homura's (rational) worries that Oriko will stab us in the back somehow.

We can work the whole "community service" angle a few different ways. Hell, one of the possibilities is having them work in actual food kitchens (or other simple community service venues that don't require extensive registration or won't look too deeply).

We can also explain to Sayaka that Oriko burned down her house specifically with the intention of saving her life--there might have been a better way, but the intention behind the act matters. Oriko's precognition also allowed her to be certain that neither Sayaka nor her parents would suffer any lasting harm from it--again, not justifying it, but making it a more extreme-but-calculated act rather than something done recklessly.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Okay, so one of the things we need to bring up (particularly with Homura) is making a Grief lie detector construct. A robust one--one that can detect partial truths, technical truths that hide dishonest intentions, etc. We'd test it out on ourselves to make sure that it works. And then we'd have Homura and Sabrina question Oriko and Kirika with it, to lay to rest once and for all Homura's (rational) worries that Oriko will stab us in the back somehow.

We can work the whole "community service" angle a few different ways. Hell, one of the possibilities is having them work in actual food kitchens (or other simple community service venues that don't require extensive registration or won't look too deeply).

We can also explain to Sayaka that Oriko burned down her house specifically with the intention of saving her life--there might have been a better way, but the intention behind the act matters. Oriko's precognition also allowed her to be certain that neither Sayaka nor her parents would suffer any lasting harm from it--again, not justifying it, but making it a more extreme-but-calculated act rather than something done recklessly.
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I hereby name this theoretical grief device a "Grief Verificator", as it confirms how true a statement is.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Okay, so one of the things we need to bring up (particularly with Homura) is making a Grief lie detector construct. A robust one--one that can detect partial truths, technical truths that hide dishonest intentions, etc. We'd test it out on ourselves to make sure that it works. And then we'd have Homura and Sabrina question Oriko and Kirika with it, to lay to rest once and for all Homura's (rational) worries that Oriko will stab us in the back somehow.

We can work the whole "community service" angle a few different ways. Hell, one of the possibilities is having them work in actual food kitchens (or other simple community service venues that don't require extensive registration or won't look too deeply).

We can also explain to Sayaka that Oriko burned down her house specifically with the intention of saving her life--there might have been a better way, but the intention behind the act matters. Oriko's precognition also allowed her to be certain that neither Sayaka nor her parents would suffer any lasting harm from it--again, not justifying it, but making it a more extreme-but-calculated act rather than something done recklessly.
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I would suggest testing it on Mami or somebody instead of ourselves. Since the device operates off our own mind, essentially, it could already 'know' what the hell the truth is, regardless of it's actual functionality.

Using it on someone we don't have full cognitive mindreading of would be a better test, if we use someone we trust totally and absolutely. We literally have more of those than we can count on one hand.
 
AuraTwilight said:
I would suggest testing it on Mami or somebody instead of ourselves. Since the device operates off our own mind, essentially, it could already 'know' what the hell the truth is, regardless of it's actual functionality.

Using it on someone we don't have full cognitive mindreading of would be a better test, if we use someone we trust totally and absolutely. We literally have more of those than we can count on one hand.
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Actually, I would still want to test if we can trick the verificator, because if we can't without it being obvious, then that's a potentially useful tool in general. "I can neither lie, nor be lied to."
 
Note: When talking with Homura and Sayaka about O&K, we could straight up talk about it in the context of something bigger, that is, of Telling Adults About Magic.

We could start talking about how future talk with the Shizukis and hopeful including of every meguca's and every Potential's parent into the 'know'. Unless they're shit. Don't ever even bring up Oriko's previous family when it might become relevant. She's a Kure now.

Basically, we're bringing the adults into the magical world because many things about it pertain to them, as it affects their daughters. And maybe, just maybe (follow us on this one, Homura) the adults should have decision power on how a crime commited by a magical girl should be addressed.

How do you mean?

Sayaka and Kirika have parents who deserve to be informed of the dangerous events in which their daughters get involved, and specifically should know who commited arson against the Mikis. And a lot of other things, like what the Magical Girl life is like, Oriko's particular situation, the (lack of) relation between large human systems and Magical Girls, etc..

But why?

Because, you know, they have taken care of them for their whole lives and, oh, excuse me...

?

Many things will work better this way. Promise. Once the adults are well and thoroughly informed and are given time to digest all the new facts they need to introduce into their lives, and which they need to better fulfill their roles and the new and exciting(ly dangerous) parts of them.

So for what pertains Sayaka, Homura, Oriko and Kirika, perhaps we can offload some of the responsibility of deciding how to 'punish' or deal with Oriko('s crime) to the relevant adults.

But they don't know.

They shall be made to know.
 
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I have noticed that the subject of checking on Nagisa came up in the last update :)

Also, has anyone checked for any invistext or invisilinks in the recent updates?
 
E1ChristO said:
I have noticed that the subject of checking on Nagisa came up in the last update :)

Also, has anyone checked for any invistext or invisilinks in the recent updates?
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There hasn't been invisitext of any sort in the past 40 updates or so.

There was one bit of invisitext pointed out a th eend of the previous update, though. (Or was it the previous one to that?)
 
Ya' know, that might just work!
Onmur said:
Note: When talking with Homura and Sayaka about O&K, we could straight up talk about it in the context of something bigger, that is, of Telling Adults About Magic.

We could start talking about how future talk with the Shizukis and hopeful including of every meguca's and every Potential's parent into the 'know'. Unless they're shit. Don't ever even bring up Oriko's previous family when it might become relevant. She's a Kure now.

Basically, we're bringing the adults into the magical world because many things about it pertain to them, as it affects their daughters. And maybe, just maybe (follow us on this one, Homura) the adults should have decision power on how a crime commited by a magical girl should be addressed.

How do you mean?

Sayaka and Kirika have parents who deserve to be informed of the dangerous events in which their daughters get involved, and specifically should know who commited arson against the Mikis. And a lot of other things, like what the Magical Girl life is like, Oriko's particular situation, the (lack of) relation between large human systems and Magical Girls, etc..

But why?

Because, you know, they have taken care of them for their whole lives and, oh, excuse me...

?

Many things will work better this way. Promise. Once the adults are well and thoroughly informed and are given time to digest all the new facts they need to introduce into their lives, and which they need to better fulfill their roles and the new and exciting(ly dangerous) parts of them.

So for what pertains Sayaka, Homura, Oriko and Kirika, perhaps we can offload some of the responsibility of deciding how to 'punish' or deal with Oriko('s crime) to the relevant adults.

But they don't know.

They shall be made to know.
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This further extends the way I was thinking in a past statement, and it is a fine way forward. Please carry through with it. My determination will be upon this, as well.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Mar 25, 2018 at 8:54 AM, finished with 209 posts and 17 votes.
  • [X] How does Mami personally feel about Oriko and Kirika? Listen.
    [X] Telepathy Masami & Hiroko re: Ono, Kuroki.
    [X] Science session: vote in abeyance.
    -[X] Toy with simple 4D grief shapes.
    -[X] Deploy Cardcaptor Sayaka jokes.
    [X] Discuss O&K with Sayaka and Homura:
    -[X] Respect their feelings; err on the side of caution. Stay positive.
    -[X] Ask what they want.
    -[X] Discuss long term viability of house arrest:
    --[X] Restitution: Financial reimbursement? Continued community service? Oriko enjoyed doing good today.
    --[X] Complications: Ongoing psychological harm from confinement; Mikuni mansion; Kirika's family.
    --[X] Alternatives: Relocation, surveillance, restricted freedom with chaperones/tracking devices? Sayaklones?
    ---[x] If Sayaklones, can Sayaka handle it? You'd worry about them keeping their cool around each other.
    --[X] Justice?: Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. Should that change? How? When? You don't like making decrees.
    -[X] Tentatively propose involving more adults with the Shizukis' help. Legal experts, therapists, the Mikis...
    - [X] Hugs
    [X] Telepathy Masami, Hiroko: re: Ono, progress finding Kuroki.
    [X] Practice session.
    -[x] Homura: Suggest protective magic development.
    --[x] "Her shield might indicate an affinity for it."
    -[X] Assist Sayaka with power testing
    -[x] Confer with Mami on enchantment curriculum
    --[x] Practice analyzing/copying enchantments?
    --[x] Non-witchy clone, and components thereof, (sight, coloration, etc.)
    --[x] Default: Try replicating basic elements of your power.
    [x] Hug Mumi
    -[x] Be unhappy that you forgot to ask Yuki if you could hug her.
    [X]Try to learn more about enchantment w/ Mami, we still want to extend our range/powers if possible.
    -[X]Have Homura join, it could help her too.
    [X] Mami's advice about Kures? Listen to her.
    [X] Telepathy Masami & Hiroko about Ono and Kuroki.
    [X] Science session: vote in abeyance. "willpower training item."
    -[X] Rotate, translate Grief though higher dimensional axis.
    [X] Speak with Mami, Homura about hiring therapists. Need to start now. Hitomi is still awake, at home. Relay to her
    [X] Discuss Justice with Sayaka and Homura:
    -[X] Magical girls can't use mundane courts and enforcement. Judges are never teens IRL. You don't want to unilaterally make decrees. But we are gaining criminals.
    --[X] We need proper justice system. Sayaka should make a study.
    -[X] Propose involving the adults, First the Shizuki's, next Miki's. Discuss onboarding.
    -[X] How do they feel about using O&K so far? Is using Oriko to help others a form of restitution?
    --[X] How to minimize risks while being good people? Is monitoring tech useful?
    [X] How does Mami personally feel about Oriko and Kirika? Listen to her.
    [X] Telepathy Masami & Hiroko about Ono and Kuroki.
    [X] Science session: vote in abeyance.
    -[X] Try moving Grief though a higher dimensional axis.
    -[X] Deploy Cardcaptor Sayaka jokes.
    [X] Discuss O&K with Sayaka and Homura:
    -[X] Respect their feelings; err on the side of caution. Stay positive.
    -[X] Ask what they think should happen with O&K.
    -[X] Bring up the long term viability of the house arrest:
    --[X] Restitution: Financial reinbursement? Continuing to use Oriko to help others?
    --[X] Complications: Mental effects of confinement; Kirika's family.
    --[X] Alternatives: Relocation, surveillance, restricted freedom with chaperones/tracking devices?
    --[X] Justice?: Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. If your alliance grows... should that change? How? You don't want to unilaterally make decrees.
    -[X] Suggest Kawaii Kuribo be their chaperone, as his Oblivious Phantasm conceptually counters all manipulation
    [X] How does Mami personally feel about Oriko and Kirika? Listen to her.
    [X] Telepathy Masami & Hiroko about Ono and Kuroki.
    [X] Science session: vote in abeyance.
    -[X] Try making a grief-tesseract and toying with it.
    -[X] Deploy Cardcaptor Sayaka jokes.
    [X] Discuss O&K with Sayaka and Homura:
    -[X] Respect their feelings; err on the side of caution. Stay positive.
    -[X] Ask what they think should happen with O&K.
    -[X] Bring up the long term viability of the house arrest:
    --[X] Restitution: Financial reinbursement? Continuing to use Oriko to help others?
    --[X] Complications: Mental effects of confinement; Kirika's family.
    --[X] Alternatives: Relocation, surveillance, restricted freedom with chaperones/tracking devices?
    --[X] Justice?: Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. If your alliance grows... should that change? How? You don't want to unilaterally make decrees.
    [X] Hug Mami
    -[X] Praise Madokami
    --[X] Gush over Homu
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