Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Seemed to be a possibility, what with Anri not answering at all. Perhaps it's something we should test.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
If Banach-Tarski does work, then the main limitation in PMAV retroactively goes out the window.
If it was likely to violently not work, Kyuubey would probably have said something to keep us from prematurely killing Madoka. On the other hand, maybe the prospect of Grief harvesting being limited by its back's throughput instead of production is exciting enough to balance that out.
If it was likely to violently not work, Kyuubey would probably have said something to keep us from prematurely killing Madoka. On the other hand, maybe the prospect of Grief harvesting being limited by its back's throughput instead of production is exciting enough to balance that out.
If Oriko has a fortune, then financial reparations might be a convincing punishment for Sayaka. House Arrest isn't really a punishment.
Also. How's Ono doing?
Also. How's Ono doing?
- Location
- Texas
So, here's a question for you Banach-Tarski math nerds:
Is the operation reversible? I think it would be, but I'm not certain. It's the same principle that gives you the pea-and-sun operation, where you can chop up a large ball and make a small ball or vice versa.
Which means that if it actually worked to allow creation of arbitrary amounts of grief, it would also allow Sabrina to effectively destroy arbitrary amounts of grief.
In any case it seems unlikely to work at all, because Sabrina perceives grief as having detectable quantities and density when she compresses it into spheres. She can change its volume, but it does actually have volume, and that volume reacts more or less like normal matter to various transformations and manipulations.
Is the operation reversible? I think it would be, but I'm not certain. It's the same principle that gives you the pea-and-sun operation, where you can chop up a large ball and make a small ball or vice versa.
Which means that if it actually worked to allow creation of arbitrary amounts of grief, it would also allow Sabrina to effectively destroy arbitrary amounts of grief.
In any case it seems unlikely to work at all, because Sabrina perceives grief as having detectable quantities and density when she compresses it into spheres. She can change its volume, but it does actually have volume, and that volume reacts more or less like normal matter to various transformations and manipulations.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Odds we can get a Sayaklone to chaperone O&K everywhere?
It would force Sayaka to see O&K as they normally are. Just two teenager girls with problems that make each other better.
EDIT: Sayaklone using super sight powers?
It would force Sayaka to see O&K as they normally are. Just two teenager girls with problems that make each other better.
EDIT: Sayaklone using super sight powers?
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Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Ugh goddamit teenagers
Homura knows where it's at.
It's at Mami's food, obviously.
Point. Point and game.
Homura knows where it's at.
It's at Mami's food, obviously.
Point. Point and game.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Holy Madokami they're adorable.
Missed the "Homura's been checking on them, I think that she uses them as a security blanket" insight, which I think was actually important. I forgot there was a vote happening, FFS. :/
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
@Firnagzen What time is it?
I have a lot of sympathy on Sayaka on this. Try to imagine that someone burned down your house. Really, picture it. All your prized possessions, all your memories going up in smoke. Things that are irreplaceable. Not to mention your sense of safety, that there is a place to retreat to where things will be okay. Up in flames. Now imagine how you would feel about the person responsible.
Would you care about their excuses and reasons? Would you care that they're not 'evil' and they have friends and relationships and reasons?
I'll tell you what would satisfy me if I were Sayaka. Have O&K confess to arson in the regular old Japanese legal system. Give whatever excuse they like, but confess to it. Have to suffer the public shame and penalties that any teenager who has committed arson would suffer. Do that and there's no need for extra-legal magical girl punishment. But if I were Sayaka, letting them off with a week of house arrest would seem like bullshit.
Would you care about their excuses and reasons? Would you care that they're not 'evil' and they have friends and relationships and reasons?
I'll tell you what would satisfy me if I were Sayaka. Have O&K confess to arson in the regular old Japanese legal system. Give whatever excuse they like, but confess to it. Have to suffer the public shame and penalties that any teenager who has committed arson would suffer. Do that and there's no need for extra-legal magical girl punishment. But if I were Sayaka, letting them off with a week of house arrest would seem like bullshit.
mCooperative
meanderingCephalopod
- Location
- Back in Mitakihara after like 1000 years.
Ohmygod the fluff is real, everyone is being adorable, it's wonderful. Everyone is adorable jellybeans.
... So, I guess we need to be super cautious of the minefields next chapter, then? Apocalypse? Feathers make an appearance juggling nuclear warheads?
We are reminded twice about this in one chapter, by Firn's grace, and I am thinking this indicates we very much need a plan to address this.
Also, can we not explicitly use the words "security blanket" to refer to how Homura is monitoring O&K? I'm not necessarily comfortable even explaining it explicitly, though yes it may be necessary depending on how much we want to be explaining to any given person, but using those precise words really feels to me like it's trivializing the thoughts and experiences behind Homura's reactions to O&K. Even aside from how I don't think Homura would respond well if that phrasing got back around to her, giving anyone else the impression that we think some of Homura's reasoning is in any way trivial makes them more likely to be weighted against her judgement when it relates to some of the various things-she-can't-or-won't-explain. With the number of secrets we have floating around, I think that may actually be dangerous, and also, it does add more of the social pressuring to any efforts to convince Homura of anything, or to any efforts Homura makes to convince the group of anything.
Following that up:
Serious proposal. Oriko and Kirika make a solemn promise that they will go to the police and confess to having set the fire that destroyed Sayaka's house after Walpurgisnacht is dealt with. I think if they did that and meant it and Sayaka believed they meant it, Sayaka would be satisfied. And honestly, it would be no less than justice. They really did hurt people.
Not sure about the Homura side.
Serious proposal. Oriko and Kirika make a solemn promise that they will go to the police and confess to having set the fire that destroyed Sayaka's house after Walpurgisnacht is dealt with. I think if they did that and meant it and Sayaka believed they meant it, Sayaka would be satisfied. And honestly, it would be no less than justice. They really did hurt people.
Not sure about the Homura side.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Since it sounds like you're asking in good faith, I'll answer in good faith.
My thought process looks something like this: Are they going to do it again? Are they going to do anything like it again? What course of action will minimize the chance that they do it again? What course of action will minimize the chance of someone else doing something like it based on their precedent? What course of action leads to the best future? Or more generally, what course of action leads to the greatest expected value over possible future universes following from that action? Punishment, and by extension retribution and "justice", is a heuristic which allows our brain (which is architected as an adaptation-executor rather than an expectation-maximizer) to approximate a particular set of solutions to the underlying game-theoretic problem. I reject the use of such heuristics when I believe that my conscious handling of the situation would be better. In this case I believe this to be the case, and strongly - the modern American concept of "justice" that I have no doubt you're operating on is wildly broken by the mismatch between the ancestral evolutionary environment and the titanic populations that drive modern politics, illustrating vividly why "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" holds so true.
Now, obviously, asking me what I'd do in Sayaka's place is useless, because my thought processes are completely different than hers. I can't even claim that I can make a particularly convincing argument that I can approximate her thought processes for the purposes of analysis. But I also don't see an argument for your side.
This discussion has been had before. This proposal has been considered and thoroughly rejected for many good reasons. I suggest you go back through the thread to find it, but if you don't want to deal with that, I will enumerate some of the immediate and obvious problems with it.
O&K would not have access to cleansing in prison and would witch out within days if not hours. They'd be separated, and I guarantee that Kirika would tolerate that for about two hours before breaking out, finding Oriko, and breaking her out too. Kyubey already covered the entire thing up, so O&K would be unable to claim responsibility in the first place. Even if they could, the police would demand an explanation, which would be either wiped by Kyubey (making it useless) or not wiped by Kyubey (resulting in the collapse of the masquerade).
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The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Given how things turned out, I don't think it would have changed much of Mami's argument. Homura being able to check in on a tracking device intermittently doesn't change that she can't be there at all hours. Depending on the situation there's still the fear to deal with that Oriko could arrange means to meet up with people and negotiate in between Homura's checkups or in a way that wouldn't be immediately noticeable through a snippet of conversation or still image. This is especially the case if she fears Oriko's powers returning.
Which doesn't mean a tracking device isn't a good partial solution to Homura's worries, but it's still only part of things.
But that's fine, there's a simple solution that should greatly help!
[] Hire Asako Komaki to chaperone Kure Oriko.
(I'm only partially joking there)
blast flame
How far will we go if it means lighting the way?
- Location
- Perth, Australia
- Pronouns
- They/Them
We're talking about multiplying grief? Man the Incubators listening in must be e x c i t e d to see that experiment.
....
Well maybe not excited because of the not feeling emotions thing but whatever their closest equivalent is.
....
Well maybe not excited because of the not feeling emotions thing but whatever their closest equivalent is.
- Location
- USA
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
On the Sayaka side of things, I would not have O&K confess to the police.
To the Mikis, however... I would consider that. But we'd need to make everyone fully aware of the circumstances. Because if anyone wants Oriko punished for her actions? Punished how? Blamed, shunned, attacked, making her want to kill herself? Well, that's already happened!
Not an excuse to do bad deeds, but definitely should be a point in the favour of not wanting to just punish the troubled orphaned teenager just to make us feel better.
Also, I would actually consider asking for Sayaka to chaperone O&K. Obviously, Sayaka might feel... reluctant to the idea, and you usually wouldn't want someone's watcher to have a strong, (negative) connection to whoever's being watched, I think, but... Well, Sayaka's got a strong sense of Justice (and we can tell her that and mean it as a compliment), so she might conduct herself fairly even in that position, and perhaps we can talk her into it.
What would be the positive points of appointing Sayaka as O&K's chaperone?
- Sayaka has Clone powers, Super Sight powers, and Invisibility powers. And Teleportation powers. If anybody is well equipped for this, she is.
- Homura and Sayaka are in the same anti O&K camp, and Homura knows about Sayaka's Sayakaness. Somewhat ironically, Homura would probably trust this version of Sayaka with watching over Oriko.
- Sayaka would have to see O&K out in the streets, see how they are mostly normal girls, and see how the people treat them for a crime they didn't commit. Not saying she's gonna fall over with sympathy, but this might help humanize O&K in Sayaka's eyes.
- We can make an argument that O&K want to help, can help, and have in fact helped. As much as Sayaka might hate the notion, allowing O&K some freedoms has literally saved lives up to this point, and she herself was witness to O&K helping make things better in ways we wouldn't have been able to achieve on our own. None of that would've happened had we punished O&K more just for the sake of punishing them.
- We can make the case that the house arrest, having worked so far based entirely on Oriko's (misguided) guilt (about her father's dead), is not going to work forever, as Oriko, after having suffered being shunned and insulted by literally everyone around her, will slowly go crazy if she's not allowed some freedom.
-- And just keeping her contained and telling her to deal with it wouldn't be Just. That would only lead to Oriko going back to doing bad things, or Oriko being killed (probably by Homura). If, however, we, as the bigger meguca, give Oriko a chance and the space she needs, she can become a Force of Good.
-- Sayaka's feelings are entirely warranted, but not allowing Oriko the chance to do Good when she desperately needs to in order to not go evil does not fit in any useful, moral justice system.
To the Mikis, however... I would consider that. But we'd need to make everyone fully aware of the circumstances. Because if anyone wants Oriko punished for her actions? Punished how? Blamed, shunned, attacked, making her want to kill herself? Well, that's already happened!
Not an excuse to do bad deeds, but definitely should be a point in the favour of not wanting to just punish the troubled orphaned teenager just to make us feel better.
Also, I would actually consider asking for Sayaka to chaperone O&K. Obviously, Sayaka might feel... reluctant to the idea, and you usually wouldn't want someone's watcher to have a strong, (negative) connection to whoever's being watched, I think, but... Well, Sayaka's got a strong sense of Justice (and we can tell her that and mean it as a compliment), so she might conduct herself fairly even in that position, and perhaps we can talk her into it.
What would be the positive points of appointing Sayaka as O&K's chaperone?
- Sayaka has Clone powers, Super Sight powers, and Invisibility powers. And Teleportation powers. If anybody is well equipped for this, she is.
- Homura and Sayaka are in the same anti O&K camp, and Homura knows about Sayaka's Sayakaness. Somewhat ironically, Homura would probably trust this version of Sayaka with watching over Oriko.
- Sayaka would have to see O&K out in the streets, see how they are mostly normal girls, and see how the people treat them for a crime they didn't commit. Not saying she's gonna fall over with sympathy, but this might help humanize O&K in Sayaka's eyes.
- We can make an argument that O&K want to help, can help, and have in fact helped. As much as Sayaka might hate the notion, allowing O&K some freedoms has literally saved lives up to this point, and she herself was witness to O&K helping make things better in ways we wouldn't have been able to achieve on our own. None of that would've happened had we punished O&K more just for the sake of punishing them.
- We can make the case that the house arrest, having worked so far based entirely on Oriko's (misguided) guilt (about her father's dead), is not going to work forever, as Oriko, after having suffered being shunned and insulted by literally everyone around her, will slowly go crazy if she's not allowed some freedom.
-- And just keeping her contained and telling her to deal with it wouldn't be Just. That would only lead to Oriko going back to doing bad things, or Oriko being killed (probably by Homura). If, however, we, as the bigger meguca, give Oriko a chance and the space she needs, she can become a Force of Good.
-- Sayaka's feelings are entirely warranted, but not allowing Oriko the chance to do Good when she desperately needs to in order to not go evil does not fit in any useful, moral justice system.
blast flame
How far will we go if it means lighting the way?
- Location
- Perth, Australia
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Sayaka is our multitool though. Can we afford to have her waste her time of chaperoning?
Plus I don't see her particularly enjoying it regardless of whether she warms to the Kirika and sidekick.
Plus I don't see her particularly enjoying it regardless of whether she warms to the Kirika and sidekick.
StellarMonarch
Myrmidon
- Location
- Québec
.
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GiftOfLove
From the Heart
I hate to say it, but I doubt you guys are ever going to find an argument good enough to convince Homura that Oriko and Kirika are trustworthy. Because she's watched them murder Madoka before.
Not in a fit of hysteria and breakdown like Mami in that one timeline, but cold, premediated murder. In the middle of a school. She'd probably sooner believe that Madoka eats kittens than believe that O&K can be trusted in anyway.
Not in a fit of hysteria and breakdown like Mami in that one timeline, but cold, premediated murder. In the middle of a school. She'd probably sooner believe that Madoka eats kittens than believe that O&K can be trusted in anyway.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
"Do I really have to eat a cute little kitten?"
"It's for the Greater Good."
"The Greater Good."
*Sniffs*
"If I have to..."
"It's for the Grea-
"Sabrina no."
GiftOfLove
From the Heart
I kind of forgot an important part of my post. Whoops.
Continued:
You guys are just stressing her out by insisting that O&K be released from their (totally deserved) house arrest. She's already accumulating a ton of grief in her off time just stalking at them. Every time Sabrina brings up that they should have loosened restrictions it probably makes Homura wonder if Sabrina is being subverted. Which might just be one of the reasons she's stalking Sabrina so much, too.
Just the fact that they tried to burn down Sayaka's house tells Homura that this is a timeline in which O&K will try to murder Madoka. I'm honestly impressed that Homura hasn't discretely tried to murder them in a fit of PTSD.
If you guys want to get Homura to accept letting them go, I think you'll have to find an enchantment that works more like a curse or geass. A contract we can put them under that makes it impossible for them to work against Madoka.
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Shadows
Sacred Priestess of the Benevolent Dice Gods
- Location
- USS Civilian, DDG-214
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Have to ask. PMAV?
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Crossover - Puella Magi Adfligo Vermis (PMAS/Worm)
Godwinson's fic about Sabrina crossovering over to Worm.
- Location
- Potato land
It definitely won't happen before Walpurgisnacht is beaten. Afterwards, though... I don't think any of us quite appreciate just how much success there will affect Homura. She's endured years of failure, of trying her hardest to save the one person she cared about, and coming up short every time. Her trauma is almost completely a result of this futile struggle, of the logic the loops have forced her to adopt.
So, on one hand we should expect her to become more obsessive and paranoid as success becomes more likely, subconsciously waiting for the other shoe to drop and have this timeline end in failure just like all the others.
On the other, after we indeed beat Walpy, with Madoka alive and uncontracted, and Homura gets over the shock, I think she will be open to reevaluating a lot of her entrenched beliefs. Including about Oriko, especially if she takes part in the fight.
It is indeed trivially reversible, it's all just rotations and translations in 3D space, and can be done without the pieces passing through each other as well. One of the many reasons it should fail.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Masively wordy vote idea thrown.
[] Mami
-[] How does she feel about Oriko and Kirika?
-[] Don't take Mami for granted.
[] Telepathy Masami & Hiroko: Ono, Kuroki.
[] Science session per vote in abeyance.
[] Homura and Sayaka.
-[] O&K:
--[] State and accept Homura's and Sayaka's views and feelings. They are valid.
--[] You can't keep the house arrest as it is.
---[] It's working due to Oriko's (massive, misdirected) guilt over her father's death, not because of her crime towards the Mikis, since she believes she saved Sayaka's life with her actions.
---[] Oriko desperately feels the need to do good.
---[] If we are the bigger meguca, and give her a chance, she can become a force of good, as she's been under our direction.
---[] Keeping Oriko contained will see her goodwill dry up and turn her back to her old ways. And we don't want that, or her getting killed for it.
--[] Propose a chaperone for O&K, and that O&K confess their crime to the Mikis.
[] Mami
-[] How does she feel about Oriko and Kirika?
-[] Don't take Mami for granted.
[] Telepathy Masami & Hiroko: Ono, Kuroki.
[] Science session per vote in abeyance.
[] Homura and Sayaka.
-[] O&K:
--[] State and accept Homura's and Sayaka's views and feelings. They are valid.
--[] You can't keep the house arrest as it is.
---[] It's working due to Oriko's (massive, misdirected) guilt over her father's death, not because of her crime towards the Mikis, since she believes she saved Sayaka's life with her actions.
---[] Oriko desperately feels the need to do good.
---[] If we are the bigger meguca, and give her a chance, she can become a force of good, as she's been under our direction.
---[] Keeping Oriko contained will see her goodwill dry up and turn her back to her old ways. And we don't want that, or her getting killed for it.
--[] Propose a chaperone for O&K, and that O&K confess their crime to the Mikis.
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