Veb. I have no words.

I'll just say once more, Haruka is a mom.

A good mom.

Worrying about her daughter is her job.

Her daughter just brought seven magical girls home. Those are her friends. That's her group she belongs to now. That's how she's likely to end up.

Haruka should be informed post-haste that is not the case. Anything else is needlessly cruel.
I really cannot follow your logic in the last two paragraphs here.

If you're that concerned, you can lead in with a jest or comment on the danger of witch barriers. ("You snuck into a witch barrier? I have half a mind to scold you now.")
 
Haruka's mom does not know that being a magical girl is dangerous. If you told her that Hitomi was a Potential she would react with pride and joy because she thinks that they save the world from witches and get sweet superpowers to go with their awesome job. If you tried to reassure her she would be confused and worried.
 
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Haruka's mom does not know that being a magical girl is dangerous. If you told her that Hitomi was a Potential she would react with pride and joy because she thinks that they save the world from witches and get sweet superpowers to go with their awesome job. If you tried to reassure her she would be confused and worried.
She followed her friend at least one hunt, and stayed friends the remainder of the year.

She was young, yes, but I don't fathom Haruka being... ignorant enough to not realize Magical Girls live a dangerous life.

[X] Thank Haruka for sharing this.
[X] Tell her Hitomi is not in danger.
[X] Explain the magical girl system to Haruka.
[X] Explain your plans for fixing the system.
[X] Tell her about your plan to reveal magic to the adults, and the help their daughter and you need from them.

And by the way, Mami's not gonna leave. She belongs here.
 
She followed her friend at least one hunt, and stayed friends the remainder of the year.

She was young, yes, but I don't fathom Haruka being... ignorant enough to not realize Magical Girls live a dangerous life.
Her friend operated solo, apparently without having trouble at school or ever running low on grief seeds. Haruka talks like witches were the sole threat that her friend faced and barely remembers what they were called. Witches. Forgot the name of. I assume you've watched Buffy. Try to imagine Xander forgetting that Buffy slayed vampires. She wasn't even deep enough for her friend to say things like "gonna fight a witch brb" that would have reinforced her memory.

No, Haruka was almost completely insulated from the megucaing. She knows that magical girls exist and that's it. If you reassure her she's going to ask why she needs to be reassured, and then you're damn right she'll be worried, except we wouldn't be able to do anything about it because we'd need to explain why Hitomi might have been in danger before we could explain why she isn't.

If you're so sure that Haruka is so concerned about her daughter, why hasn't she been pitching a fit? Why were the first words out of her mouth not "Is my daughter a potential?" Why is she sitting there laughing at the expressions on our faces? How do you explain that?
 
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@Matou Sutegobana @Jiven @SomeOneElse007 @KInruush I'm about to make some drastic changes here and this notification exists as such. If you're looking to me for something in my vote that was lost in translation, Karnewarrior has something pretty similar set up that's based upon it.

[jk]Suddenly, inexplicably, become Redshirt Army.

[X] Lead in:
-[X] Find out more about Haruka's relationship with magic in the past.
-[X] Ask why she brought this up.

[X] Conversational goals in rough order of priority.
-[X] Leave Haruka well inclined to us.
-[X] Give her cause to realize that Hitomi is safe without overemphasizing it.
-[X] Fill Haruka in on what we're trying to do. (With particular focus on what we asked her for help with today by proxy)
-[X] Acquire Haruka's support as an adult we can count on.

[X]Outro:
-[X] Ask if she minds us filling in our friends on this development.

[X] Vote In Abeyance.

[X] Find out the status of Tsuchiya Ritsuko from Kyuubey, later.
 
[X] Ask how involved she was in the whole thing. Try to understand how much she knows about stuff without actually revealing the existence of the stuff she doesn't know.
-[X] She confronted us for a reason... Does she just want to know more about this kind of stuff?
-[X] Is she just looking to make sure her daughter is safe? Cuz she totally is! Hardly involved at all beyond just being a friend we can unwind with.

I kind of really like the theory about Tsuchiyo Ritsuko now going by the name of Akiko... the water-magic girl we beat the brains out of. After all, theres the vaguely similar powers (barring us knowing more), theres the fact that Akiko knew about the LichBomb (see the bit with healing "how are you alive your organs" girl, and hiding it from Rin) and so potentially would've known about stalling the aging process, there is the fact that she not only had the experience to form a large and potent group that could oppress other groups but also had the obsessive-fear of resource management (which, if she's survived decades as a magical girl and likely endured a few drought-times, is reasonable), and of course if she's stayed young (and why not) all this time its not a surprise she'd have changed her name.
The bad part is this really makes me want to ask Kyubey about Ritsuko... just trying to imagine his revealing this to us if its true xD
 
Her friend operated solo, apparently without having trouble at school or ever running low on grief seeds. Haruka talks like witches were the sole threat that her friend faced and barely remembers what they were called. Witches. Forgot the name of. I assume you've watched Buffy. Try to imagine Xander forgetting that Buffy slayed vampires. She wasn't even deep enough for her friend to say things like "gonna fight a witch brb" that would have reinforced her memory.

No, Haruka was almost completely insulated from the megucaing. She knows that magical girls exist and that's it. If you reassure her she's going to ask why she needs to be reassured, and then you're damn right she'll be worried, except we wouldn't be able to do anything about it because we'd need to explain why Hitomi might have been in danger before we could explain why she isn't.

If you're so sure that Haruka is so concerned about her daughter, why hasn't she been pitching a fit? Why were the first words out of her mouth not "Is my daughter a potential?" Why is she sitting there laughing at the expressions on our faces? How do you explain that?

Well, really, I stumbled over her when she was sneaking away to fight a... Witch, I think they were called? It's been a long time.
I do not see where did Haruka forget what Witches were called. It's been a long time, the memories are fuzzy simply due to that, because she and Ritsuko were only friends for less than a year, and Haruka seems to have taken Hitomi's route in being disillusioned about not being one of the chosen ones.

Could she have been insulated from most of the dangers meguca face? Yes. Is it likely? Not nearly to the extent you're affirming.

I am mostly surely Haruka is basically pitching a fit right now. Internally. In a controled, adult manner. She is a high class lady.

The chance she doesn't know about the dangers meguca friends can be exposed to exists.

I also believe you're, again, greatly exaggerating Haruka's reaction once informed her daughter won't be involved in Magical Girl fights, as a bystander, nor by becoming a Magical Girl herself.
 
[X] Ask how involved she was in the whole thing. Try to understand how much she knows about stuff without actually revealing the existence of the stuff she doesn't know.
-[X] She confronted us for a reason... Does she just want to know more about this kind of stuff?
-[X] Is she just looking to make sure her daughter is safe? Cuz she totally is! Hardly involved at all beyond just being a friend we can unwind with.

I kind of really like the theory about Tsuchiyo Ritsuko now going by the name of Akiko... the water-magic girl we beat the brains out of. After all, theres the vaguely similar powers (barring us knowing more), theres the fact that Akiko knew about the LichBomb (see the bit with healing "how are you alive your organs" girl, and hiding it from Rin) and so potentially would've known about stalling the aging process, there is the fact that she not only had the experience to form a large and potent group that could oppress other groups but also had the obsessive-fear of resource management (which, if she's survived decades as a magical girl and likely endured a few drought-times, is reasonable), and of course if she's stayed young (and why not) all this time its not a surprise she'd have changed her name.
The bad part is this really makes me want to ask Kyubey about Ritsuko... just trying to imagine his revealing this to us if its true xD
As a crack theory?

[Q] Given that Tsuchiya's power was to conjure water, I'm afraid to inform you she is likely catatonic following her being assaulted by an overpowered white haired foreigner.

:V
 
If Mami knows that something can happen when your Soul Gem fills up, and it's infohazardous, then... what?
Mami is aware that a gem turning dark is fatal. You're protecting her from information that she already knows.

We won't be discussing the witchbomb with Haruka when we haven't even told most of our friends. And we shouldn't discuss it outside a privacy zone, because we haven't revealed to Kyubey that we know it, yet. There's no reason that Mami would need to leave.

[X] Offer your condolences. Tsuchiya Ritsuko is almost certainly dead, or she would be famous by now for living so long.
This is still an incredibly awkward and uncomfortable way to open. Let's not make any declarations about Ritsuko's status until we have some actual information.

No, Haruka was almost completely insulated from the megucaing. She knows that magical girls exist and that's it. If you reassure her she's going to ask why she needs to be reassured, and then you're damn right she'll be worried, except we wouldn't be able to do anything about it because we'd need to explain why Hitomi might have been in danger before we could explain why she isn't.
If we're bringing Haruka on board as an ally, then we're going to be telling her at least some of the bad things about megucaing. She's going to end up knowing at least as much as Hitomi knows. At which point, she's going to realize that she should have been worrying.
 
Probably has to do with the fact that we don't all actually hate Kyubey, but arguing about it is pointless if we're not interacting with him.
We hate him as much as a sapient bomb in someone elses house, its the fact that the bomb is very willing to run over and blow up to further its goals whether we want to or not that worry us.
  • Mami: Safe, happy.
  • Haruka: Informed. Recruited.
  • Hitomi: Not pissed off.
  • Kyubey: Insulted.
...Yeah, that looks like a pretty good vote. Go for it. :D
[x] Mami: Safe, happy.
[x] Haruka: Informed. Recruited.
[x] Hitomi: Not pissed off.
[x] Kyubey: Insulted.
[x] Look into Hitommy's friend. Probably dead yo, or we'd have heard about her.

:V

Unfortunately, Hitomi's mother cannot summon muskets from under her skirt. If she could, this conversation would be a lot more interesting.
Turns out she lost an arm and now has a transforming hand cannon. Plot twist!
 
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We tell her the magical girl dies. In a sense, the witch transformation kind of is a death; the only way we know of thus far to Dewitch somebody isn't resurrection but reincarnation, which reflects real life death pretty closely.

Anyway, the prophesied rewrite here.

[X] Tsuchiya sounds like she was good friend.
[X] Ask if she has any other reason for bring this up.
[X] Ask her if we can bring Hitomi in on the conversation

[X] Answer any questions she has honestly and in detail.
[X] Thank Mrs. Shizuki for sharing this with you. You actually wanted to talk with her, and other adults about this. Particularly girls' parents, once we run it by the girls themselves.
[X] Explain some of the problems Magical Girls face. Don't sugarcoat it, but don't get too grim about it either. Point out that it's a life that can be brutal, but we're here and we have the ability to start bringing them civilization.
[X] Explain our goals. Give her the gist of most of it, but focus on aiding other magical girls.
- [X] Magical girls are often forced to be solitary and when combined with the fact that actual grief creates grief in the gem, it means support networks are more important than ever.
--[X] We're trying to ensure Hitomi stays involved with her friends for that reason. She can't become a magical girl, but she can be there for her friends.

[x] Vote in abeyance.

[X] When you have a moment to yourself, contact Kyuubey and ask about Tsuchiya. If she's still alive, see if he'll tell her Haruka is still alive.
One point: Kyubey telling Tsuchiya that Haruka is still alive means nothing. Asking him to convey that she still remembers Tsuchiya fondly and would love to get back in touch with her would actually mean something.
 
The less we rely on Kyuubey, the better.
This is dumb. It's not relying on Kyubey, it's utilizing him. If he refuses to answer, that's fine. Then we ask Nadia. But asking Kyubey is both more reliable and faster.

Like, you don't need to rely on someone to get use out of him.

Besides the fact KB would likely take it as an invitation to traumatize Mami some more... whenever we actually interact with Kyuubey, there's a surge of... Kyuubey apologism in the thread, that really worries me.
I think you're making the mistake of thinking that Kyubey is sadistic or intentionally cruel. At worst, Kyubey is uncaring.

Don't get me wrong, I have many problems with the Incubators. But treating them as hostile is not only a mistake in terms of lost opportunities, it's also stupid. We currently have no means whatsoever of actually fighting them. We can't even yet offer an alternative to dealing with Witches, compared to contracting new MGs on a global scale. Maintaining a relatively cordial and business-like relationship with Kyubey is a good thing, because, for the time being, we're stuck with him, and he could make our lives extremely difficult if he wanted to.

If, on the other hand, we can show some potential for being useful for Kyubey's goals (not counting his goal of getting Madoka to contract and Witch out), he's likely to be a lot more helpful going forward, and that is very useful, even if we plan on stabbing him in the back at some point down the line.

I'd rather ask Nadia. If she doesn't know, she doesn't know. If Haruka asks, we can ask Kyuubey on her behalf.
That makes no sense and is all kinds of backwards. Asking Kyubey (via telepathy) is faster and easier, and much more likely to give us a definitive answer. If he doesn't give us a definitive answer, then we can ask Nadia.

The only time Kyubey has shown himself to Mami since we revealed the truth to her is when we were meeting with Nadia as a group, and he was specifically there to definitively confirm Sabrina's abilities to Nadia.
 
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Quick, minor edit since I suggested it and, If Onmur's right, it should reassure Haruka a fair bit at the start without much risk of compromising anything.

[jk]Suddenly, inexplicably, become Invisitext.

[X] Lead in:
-[X] Jokingly: You should scold Haruka now. Going into a witch's barrier is dangerous. But seriously, you hope the two of them didn't do that more than once.

[X]Points to clear up early on.
-[X] Find out more about Haruka's relationship with magic in the past.
-[X] Ask why she brought this up.

[X] Conversational goals in rough order of priority.
-[X] Leave Haruka well inclined to us.
-[X] Give her cause to realize that Hitomi is safe without overemphasizing it.
-[X] Fill Haruka in on what we're trying to do. (With particular focus on what we asked her for help with today by proxy)
-[X] Acquire Haruka's support as an adult we can count on.

[X]Outro:
-[X] Ask if she minds us filling in our friends on this development.

[X] Vote In Abeyance.

[X] Find out the status of Tsuchiya Ritsuko from Kyuubey, later.
 
Mami is aware that a gem turning dark is fatal. You're protecting her from information that she already knows.

Well, yeah.

But if -- as Conjured Blade suggested -- Haruka asked us about what happens when a gem turns dark, and we wanted to tell Haruka the complete truth, then we would have to get Mami out of the room.

And then, barring some plausible excuse, Mami would have the context to realize that she was wrong about what happens when a gem turns dark, and she would know the truth was some horrible infohazardous secret...

Alternatively, warn Mami that this conversation may go into the secret we offered to tell her but she declined and ask if she wants to leave the room, having established the existence of things hazardous for Magical Girls to learn after contracting beforehand for Haruka.

This is not a plausible excuse. This is all but telling Mami to her face that she's wrong about what happens when a gem turns dark, and it's telling Mami that we're worried about her own mental health if she were to learn the truth. Those are context clues she might use to arrive at the Witchbomb on her own.

Mami is not stupid.

We won't be discussing the witchbomb with Haruka when we haven't even told most of our friends

So authoritative!

I'm not sure we should tell her the Witchbomb either -- or at least, I certainly don't want to tell her right now, not if we don't have to. But I don't see why I shouldn't at least engage with the idea, and I don't think there's any reason in principle to continue being secretive with her just because we've been secretive with our friends. We concealed things from our friends because of our circumstances and their circumstances, and Haruka is in different circumstances, which (if nothing else) opens the door to a reconsideration of our policy.

Even if we reconsider and decide on balance that we shouldn't tell her.

And we shouldn't discuss it outside a privacy zone, because we haven't revealed to Kyubey that we know it, yet. There's no reason that Mami would need to leave.

I would be extremely surprised if Kyubey doesn't already believe we know the Witchbomb, but there's no reason not to take measures for privacy, just on principle.
 
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Well, yeah.

But if -- as Conjured Blade suggested -- Haruka asked us about what happens when a gem turns dark, and we wanted to tell Haruka the complete truth, then we would have to get Mami out of the room.

And then, barring some plausible excuse, Mami would have the context to realize that she was wrong about what happens when a gem turns dark, and she would know the truth was some horrible infohazardous secret...



This is not a plausible excuse. This is all but telling Mami to her face that she's wrong about what happens when a gem turns dark, and it's telling Mami that we're worried about her own mental health if she were to learn the truth. Those are context clues she might use to arrive at the Witchbomb on her own.

Mami is not stupid.



So authoritative!

I'm not sure we should tell her the Witchbomb either -- or at least, I certainly don't want to tell her right now, not if we don't have to. But I don't see why I shouldn't at least engage with the idea, and I don't think there's any reason in principle to continue being secretive with her just because we've been secretive with our friends. We concealed things from our friends because of our circumstances and their circumstances, and Haruka is in different circumstances, which (if nothing else) opens the door to a reconsideration of our policy.

Even if we reconsider and decide on balance that we shouldn't tell her.



I would be extremely surprised if Kyubey doesn't already believe we know the Witchbomb, but there's no reason not to take measures for privacy, just on principle.
I don't mean once the question comes up. I mean warning Mami that the conversation may enter infohazard territory before the question comes up.
 
We tell her the magical girl dies. In a sense, the witch transformation kind of is a death; the only way we know of thus far to Dewitch somebody isn't resurrection but reincarnation, which reflects real life death pretty closely.
"Our soul gems are, in a very real sense, our souls. If they were to run out of magic, we would lose the will to live, and cease to exist."

"Oh, that's horrible!"

"And it's definitely not a setup for a terrible wordplay that only even makes sense in Japanese, because what the hell Kyuubey." (In case you forgot: shoujo = Girl, majo = Witch, thus "girl that becomes a witch" = "mahou shoujo")

The bunnycat stepped out from behind a couch, tail swishing in what you knew for a fact could not be amusement.

"I'm sure I have no idea what you're talking about. Humor is an illogical pastime that us Kyuubeys have no time for."

"Oh don't you even start-"
 
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We won't be discussing the witchbomb with Haruka when we haven't even told most of our friends.
I'm not so sure about this. We can't tell Madoka because it's wish bait. We can't tell Hitomi because she'd tell Madoka. We can't tell any of the meguca obviously. Homu already knows. Haruka? I think that she'd be able to handle it about as well as we could. And the upsides are significant: It means that she's not liable to accidentally discover it in uncontrolled circumstances where someone else might figure it out with her, and if someone does get witchbombed accidentally she'd be much more prepared to render assistance.
If we're bringing Haruka on board as an ally, then we're going to be telling her at least some of the bad things about megucaing. She's going to end up knowing at least as much as Hitomi knows. At which point, she's going to realize that she should have been worrying.
I think that the context there may've been a bit hard to figure out; I am arguing entirely for "just explain it up front". In this case, our explanation will be easier and Haruka will spend less time worried and be less worried overall (and therefore be a more effective learner) if we jump straight into the explanation instead of inappropriately reassuring her before we start. Compare the following two sequences of events:
  • Reassure before explain:
    • Haruka does not know that meguacing is dangerous.
    • We assure her that Hitomi isn't in danger.
    • Haruka gets worried. We've converted some of Haruka's unknown unknowns into known unknowns, her worries are driven by the new knowledge that she has unknowns, and we're not going to be able to address those known unknowns without making them known knowns in some fashion so that she can get a handle on them. Human psychology.
    • We try to reassure her again. This is an attempt to convert the known unknowns of "What is threatening Hitomi" into a known known of "Whatever it is, Sabrina can handle it". The problem is that we already used this gambit once and it was what kicked the entire problem off in the first place. This attempt might work on a perfectly rational actor. Haruka is not a perfectly rational actor. Since at this point we haven't engaged with her enough to build a new image, she also thinks that we're a dumb irresponsible teenager. Updating on new evidence is difficult and not automatic and the anchoring effect will be in full swing. This attempt will fail completely, possibly catastrophically.
    • We explain the entire magical girl system. This converts the known unknowns into totally reified known knowns: Haruka now understand what the threats could be.
    • We explain why Hitomi is safe. Haruka now understand why the threats are not threats. Mission accomplished.
  • Explain then reassure:
    • Haruka does not know that meguacing is dangerous.
    • We explain to Haruka that megucaing is dangerous. She now has known knowns about threats to Hitomi.
    • Haruka gets worried. Possibly. It should be relatively obvious to her that Hitomi is not directly in danger, and more than that, she should have enough knowledge to directly engage in problem-solving to address her fears, so the situation is not entirely out of her control.
    • We reassure her. It works because we have a base of known knowns to work on. Everything is good!
I advocate the second option, "Explain then reassure". I completely agree that we will need to bring her in fully, that we will need to do up front and as clearly and completely as possible modulo infohazards, and that we should do it as quickly as possible preferably in the upcoming update. I've been saying that since the mini-update was posted.
 
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I'm sorry, but why in the world would we want to tell her about the witchbomb? All it does is put an extremely dangerous infohazard further out there where it might accidentally be revealed to people who shouldn't know it. For one thing, Haruka is an adult dealing with a group of children - putting such a major piece of information in her hands, she's going to consider what happens to the information her responsibility. I don't mean to imply that Haruka is going to step all over and ignore our plans and intentions, but as has been mentioned she is a mom. Giving the information to her is essentially ceding control of what we do with it to her own judgement. And clearly, she doesn't have the most accurate view of what meguca life is like, so there's the risk that she's just distant enough from the issue to not see it as quite as big a deal as it really should be. Honestly, I think she'll probably be fine to keep the secret, but the risk is enough that there better be pretty tangible benefits to bringing her in.

The problem is there really isn't any good reason to do so. Even on the principle that it's bad to keep something this big a secret (which, yeah, it is), that still doesn't really outweigh the risk that Haruka will decide that she knows better than us what we should be doing with the information because, again, she's a parent and we are a bunch of children. I'm all for having an actual discussion about whether we should reveal bombs to people, but there needs to be an actual reason before we start considering it. We haven't even decided Mami, Hitomi, Sayaka, or Madoka need to know it yet - why does Haruka?

Also, how does voting multiple times work? I'm really new to actually participating in quests instead of reading them as a lurker without an account. Will my vote change if I switch to a different plan? And if the plan I voted for changes down the line, does my vote still count? Cause after the changes that have been made,

[X] The Phoenixian
 
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So I just got internet back and haven't read the discussion that happened since I signed off, but here's two points:

[ ] Telepathically ask Hitomi to excuse herself and come here. It, uh, turns out her mom already knows something about magical girls from her (misspent?) youth.

We need to keep Hitomi in the loop here. If her mom was in full panic mode, it'd be different, but with the situation currently de-escalated, going over her head may cause resentment.

[ ] Ask Haruka if her husband knows about magic.
-[ ] Sub-point: Ask if, since you're going to be explaining the system in detail, she'd prefer to wait until her husband can be here so you don't repeat yourself.

Let's not poke at leaving the person she, uh, married, out of the loop.
 
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