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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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To-do list. Long ways off on the to-do list.
Granted, it's technically more of a shadow government sort of thing, but...

Anyhow, it's past Walpurgisnacht and Feathers. So we're likely only going to be able to set the foundations for it, to be seen in epilogues.
 
cmwatford said:
I feel that the whole Madokami and Rebellion thing might change her mental calculus. Learning that she almost got it right in an alt timeline could just egg her on. What then? It's her choice to make.
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"Hey Homura, in an alternate universe, Madoka ascends to godhood and everyone but you forgets she exists. This is only rectified when you become the Devil and alienate yourself from Madoka forever and break the universe in half, and Madoka is always at risk of remembering she's God and going back to heaven. Oh, did I mention you used force and mindrape?"

Yea, no.
 
AuraTwilight said:
"Hey Homura, in an alternate universe, Madoka ascends to godhood and everyone but you forgets she exists. This is only rectified when you become the Devil and alienate yourself from Madoka forever and break the universe in half, and Madoka is always at risk of remembering she's God and going back to heaven. Oh, did I mention you used force and mindrape?"

Yea, no.
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From the way it was phrased, I assumed that he meant that we would be telling Madoka about Rebellion.
 
AuraTwilight said:
"Hey Homura, in an alternate universe, Madoka ascends to godhood and everyone but you forgets she exists. This is only rectified when you become the Devil and alienate yourself from Madoka forever and break the universe in half, and Madoka is always at risk of remembering she's God and going back to heaven. Oh, did I mention you used force and mindrape?"

Yea, no.
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I was talking about telling Madoka. The only thing she did wrong as madokami was not taking homu with her when she ascended.
 
Speaking of getting Madoka to fully understand everything that Homura's gone/is going through, we're now friends with a memory mage. Directly copying those memories from one mind to another could allow Madoka to absorb them in their entirety, with no room for interpretation and misunderstanding. It's not omniscience, but it's probably the next best thing.
 
The Narrator said:
Anyway, I'm not a huge fan of the Law of Cycles/Madokami as a "solution" in the first place. It doesn't really save anyone, it just lets them die more peacefully. It prevents witches, but the girls still disappear. They still suffer and despair. The ones that die in battle still die. Kyubey still exploits human children. The system is diminished somewhat, but it is not broken.

I'd prefer to seek a more effective solution.
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Except it does. Their bodies are lost, yes, but we know explicitly that they go to an afterlife, instead of being trapped in Grief Seeds for all eternity. That's a pretty thorough saving, I'd say.

As for suffering, despairing, and dying: Nothing will change that. Take away Kyubey and Magic, and those girls will still suffer, despair, and die. All of those things are part of being human. Magical Girls just live shorter, more tumultuous lives than normal people...except that they have the mercy of Madokami to spare them despair when they reach their breaking point.

Honestly, the Meguca contract, without Witches, is a really bloody good deal. The chance to realize what you want most immediately, for the "price" of spending your remaining life protecting humanity. Normally, a person has to spend their life manually to accomplish something great, but a Meguca can change the world without decades of toil and struggle, in additiom to getting the chance to make a difference for others in a very real, very important way. Not to mention the whole "magic" bit, the "freedom from pain" bit, or the "potential immortality" bit.

As for Kyubey exploiting children...that's true, but it's also true that the Incubators played a huge role in he development of human civilization. Speaking strictly of the two species as a whole (not individual members), Humanity and the Imcubators have been in a heavily beneficial, mutualistic relationship for millenia. That's why Madoka doesn't try to get rid of them; they're monstrous, but they are needed.

I mean, fuck, without the Incubators, in the post-Madokami universe, there would be no one to stop the Wraiths. The little guy's a bastard, but he's too useful to get rid of.
 
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AnonymousRabbit said:
[X] Redshirt Army

Hey guys correct me if I'm wrong but have we ever considered to make a country or is that already on the to-do list?
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We have. I personally believe that something of fhe sort needs to be done, in order to provide a haven for Meguca. Some disagree.

Always Happening said:
Reminder to those currently arguing: Perception of truth is often more important than literal truth itself. If humans were logical and rational, we wouldn't have half the problems we do.
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We'd have a completely different set of problems, instead. Being logical and rational means abandoning many of our morals and sacrificing many of our greatest qualities.

An irrational human will stand by someone he loves or something he believes in, even if it kills him. A rational one will sacrifice anyone to preserve himself. Honestly, I expect we'd be extinct if we didn't behave illogically; it's our irrational nature which allows us to unite under banners of idealogy and loyalty, thus allowing civilization to grow.
 
Higure said:
We have. I personally believe that something of fhe sort needs to be done, in order to provide a haven for Meguca. Some disagree.


We'd have a completely different set of problems, instead. Being logical and rational means abandoning many of our morals and sacrificing many of our greatest qualities.

An irrational human will stand by someone he loves or something he believes in, even if it kills him. A rational one will sacrifice anyone to preserve himself. Honestly, I expect we'd be extinct if we didn't behave illogically; it's our irrational nature which allows us to unite under banners of idealogy and loyalty, thus allowing civilization to grow.
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I think you have a skewed perception of what rationality is.

Rationality isn't about your fundamental goals or values but how you try and fulfill those goals and values. It doesn't require you to put yourself ahead of everyone else. A rational selfless man placed in a situation where sacrifice is the best way to fulfill their values will work out how to sacrifice themselves most efficiently.
 
Higure said:
A rational one will sacrifice anyone to preserve himself.
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Self-preservation isn't any more rational than any other goal. A rational paperclip maximizer will happily sacrifice itself once it runs out of other things to turn into paperclips, or if it makes a better paperclip maximizer and is no longer necessary.
 
Don t forget that Madoka didn't want to invalidate every meguca wish, suffering and sacrifice by mind raping everyone into submission.
 
Onmur said:
No, we can't go to karaoke.

We are at karaoke.

Hell, maybe we are karaoke.

[Q] Tell Mami she's the best karaoke ever.
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MOAR KARAOKE


As for Madoka and Homura caution dicticats we don't let Madoka contract simply due to it always ending poorly for most parties directly involved - namely in ways Sabrina would not want. The damage is too high to risk it at all.

But after we get past WPN I think we need to get as many facts in the open for Madoka. I doubt Madoka would contract knowing Homura's history.

Ok she might but her threshold would be WAY higher... unless she wishes to protect Homura. Then we just have an infinite loop of Homura watching Madoka's back as she watches Homura's.

Or everything implodes and we loose our hat.
 
blast flame said:
I think you have a skewed perception of what rationality is.

Rationality isn't about your fundamental goals or values but how you try and fulfill those goals and values. It doesn't require you to put yourself ahead of everyone else. A rational selfless man placed in a situation where sacrifice is the best way to fulfill their values will work out how to sacrifice themselves most efficiently.
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Then tell me, without being emotionally driven to prioritize others over yourself, without following an instinctive attachment to others, without becoming obsessed with an ideal greater than yourself, how do you become selfless?

The issue here isn't that "rationality is bad," but rather that total rationality is bad, both as an individual and as a species. Logic and rationality are great once values have been established, but there's no logical reason to establish values that prioritize others over yourself; if you die, you cannot experience any benefits your actions might have, after all.

So, yes, a selfless man who is behaving rationally will optimize his selflessness. A person who is inherently rational, however, would never develop that selfless nature in the first place. Having a world full of rational individuals implies that is a natural state for the species; if it is a natural state, then they are all going to end up prioritizing their personal well being over all else, because prioritizing anything else requires irrational elements of thought.
 
Higure said:
Then tell me, without being emotionally driven to prioritize others over yourself, without following an instinctive attachment to others, without becoming obsessed with an ideal greater than yourself, how do you become selfless?

The issue here isn't that "rationality is bad," but rather that total rationality is bad, both as an individual and as a species. Logic and rationality are great once values have been established, but there's no logical reason to establish values that prioritize others over yourself; if you die, you cannot experience any benefits your actions might have, after all.

So, yes, a selfless man who is behaving rationally will optimize his selflessness. A person who is inherently rational, however, would never develop that selfless nature in the first place. Having a world full of rational individuals implies that is a natural state for the species; if it is a natural state, then they are all going to end up prioritizing their personal well being over all else, because prioritizing anything else requires irrational elements of thought.
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Without emotions or instincts how do you become *selfish*? All goals, selfish or selfless, require some (effectively arbitrary) starting point.
 
Torgamous said:
Self-preservation isn't any more rational than any other goal. A rational paperclip maximizer will happily sacrifice itself once it runs out of other things to turn into paperclips, or if it makes a better paperclip maximizer and is no longer necessary.
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That is true, but, absent an inherent purpose (i.e. paperclip production), what objective should be pursued?

Assuming the same basic physical nature, it seems to me thst the pursuit of positive stimuli is the obvious objective that would be prioritized. Essentially, hedonism. No pleasure may be experienced if one is dead, thus avoidance of death takes first priority.

blast flame said:
Without emotions or instincts how do you become *selfish*? All goals, selfish or selfless, require some (effectively arbitrary) starting point.
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Hmm...fair point. I suppose a true rational actor, lacking an inherent objective, would...off itself? It has no potential gain and no purpose, after all, and no way to derive happiness from its existence.

Either that, or it would simply do nothing.
 
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Higure said:
That is true, but, absent an inherent purpose (i.e. paperclip production), what objective should be pursued?
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None. Look at a laptop. It just does what it's told, even if it's told to help you shop for new laptops and then find a place nearby that recycles old laptops.

Categorization of stimuli as "positive" is inherently emotional.
 
Higure said:
Hmm...fair point. I suppose a true rational actor, lacking an inherent objective, would...off itself? It has no potential gain and no purpose, after all, and no way to derive happiness from its existence.

Either that, or it would simply do nothing.
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I see doing nothing as more likely. What does it gain by offing itself? It's like a computer not told to run any particular program.

I see the most fundamental layer of baseline goals/values as arational, not irrational. It's before rationality comes into play, like growing/building the agent.
 
Torgamous said:
None. Look at a laptop. It just does what it's told, even if it's told to help you shop for new laptops and then find a place nearby that recycles old laptops.

Categorization of stimuli as "positive" is inherently emotional.
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So, you're saying we should get Madoka to wish for a better Madoka to replace her? And then, that Madoka could also wish for a superior Madoka, and so on, until we have a Madoka that can solve all our problems for us.

It's a radical plan, but it could work...
 
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