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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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The Narrator said:
That seems like it would be a massive blunder on his part. Telling Madoka about it seems like it would vastly decrease, rather than increase, her willingness to contract, much as the witchbomb did. Knowing that each repetition is exacerbating the problem only gives her more reason to try to avoid making more loops necessary. Or worse, to do what she did at the end of the series and try to use her wish to simultaneously end the loops and deny Kyubey his payday.

The potentialbomb is really only an effective weapon if used against Homura, because she equates potential with suffering and it gives her cause to blame herself for everything. Against anyone else, it just doesn't have the same emotional impact. If Kyubey instead told Madoka, he would just be throwing away his shot... or worse, shooting himself in the foot.

I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude that the vagueness of her wish (as compared to the specificity of her wish to become Madokami) indicates that she probably knew much less about the situation than she did in canon.

That said, other aspects of your theory do have merit. We know that a Madowish can retcon history, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that the changes we're seeing in the PMAS timeline were created by her wish. It might be worth trying to see if there are any discrepancies between Homura's knowledge of past timelines and this one that predate anything we could have effected since our arrival.

(That's also one of the more unique uses of the Literary Agent Hypothesis that I've ever seen. :cool:)
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The beginning may be replaceable rather than a core part but I might as well go into it.

We may not see whatever action was taken, but we see the result. By all indication, Kyuubey very much got something out of that wish: He got another potential magical girl with ludicrous power. Even without something like Sabrina appearing, a time resetting wish from Madoka would increase the potential of the people close to her.


As far as rules lawyeryness goes, for all that it's concise, I'm of the impression that Madoka's wish is pretty well handled. She doesn't wish for an outcome, she wishes for a possibility. And that makes a certain amount of sense: Magic is a double sided thing. Ask for something good and you'll get it, but there's going to be something bad to go with it. Ask for a possibility or a chance on the other hand, and it may well be that you lay the foundation for a possible wonderful outcome in exchange for a possible horrible one. (In the same manner, ask for a means to fix everything, and you may solve everything with it, or you may break everything with it.)

(Maybe this Sabrina will live forever but fail to save the people she cares for. Maybe she'll just blow up Mitakihara... and leave any other problems that emerged in the wish with no one to resolve them. Or maybe she'll make herself into the new cog in the system that changes everything.)
 
The Narrator said:
As others have pointed out, there's no way to keep Kyubey from talking to someone. He uses telepathy. He could tell her from the other side of a concrete wall, if need be.
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That's true in the long term, but if Homura keeps killing his vessels and 'shouting' over him with gunfire, there's not much he can really do. Hell, Homura interrupted a conversation with Madoka by turning him into swiss cheese.

That's a pretty outrageous assumption. She could just as easily have made the same wish if she knew almost nothing. It's a wish that requires no context to form.
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But it's not the wish she made in CANON, and everything was the same up to that point. So she either had the SAME information or she had MORE, and only one of those provides a reason for why anything is different.

Additionally, wishes work off of intent. Why did her wish hand agency over to a non-Madoka if she didn't know that "Madoka fixes everything" inherently PREVENTS Homura's wish from coming true?

It's an entirely, perfectly rational deduction, and is not at all an assumption.

Redshirt Army said:
Hmm. Wishes run on intent. Madoka's wish would only consider preventing Madoka from contracting to be "fixing" things if she herself considered the state of her having wished itself as being broken. (Otherwise, it would work to fix stuff like the lichbomb and witches existing without dissuading the contract itself.)

But if she considered "the state of having wished" to be "broken", the only reason for her to make that wish is if she was going to retroactively undo it.

And it's a fairly safe assumption that any quest character dumped into PMMM with metaknowledge will try and prevent Madoka from wishing, so if we accept that we are here as a result of Madoka's wish, then it follows that Madoka wished to not have wished, effectively.

Theoretically, she could have decided to do that for unrelated reasons. Practically, it seems to strongly imply she was potentialbombed.

I've said this before, but will repeat it now: I consider last timeline Madoka's wish to be a better wish than her canon one, and believe that having made a better wish implies that this Madoka was more informed than her canon self. (To the point that I considered that she might have been made aware of the events of Rebellion before wishing.)
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Yes, exactly. Her wish directly implies a potentialbomb if you actually look at how she responds to the Potentialbomb in side-materials like the PSP game, Homura's Revenge, or just, you know. Extrapolate Madoka's personality from the anime towards what makes sense. This is the girl who says that wishes aren't meaningless despite every other source in the series saying so, and without contradicting their inevitable fate to die fighting for those wishes.

Someone who claims with every fiber of her soul, even after becoming a god, that wishes weren't meaningless, and neither was their fighting for them, and someone tries to claim that knowing Homura's struggles in proper context doesn't change what she wishes for? Yea right.

As far as rules lawyeryness goes, for all that it's concise, I'm of the impression that Madoka's wish is pretty well handled. She doesn't wish for an outcome, she wishes for a possibility. And that makes a certain amount of sense: Magic is a double sided thing. Ask for something good and you'll get it, but there's going to be something bad to go with it. Ask for a possibility or a chance on the other hand, and it may well be that you lay the foundation for a possible wonderful outcome in exchange for a possible horrible one. (In the same manner, ask for a means to fix everything, and you may solve everything with it, or you may break everything with it.)
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It's even BETTER than that. She wished for a goal without caring about what the road looks like to get there. She took the ultimate path of least resistance of "Anything can happen, so long as it leads here."

She effectively redirected all the rivers to lead into the same lake.[/quote][/QUOTE]
 
Tally incoming
Adhoc vote count started by Unhacker on Jul 7, 2017 at 6:33 AM, finished with 120386 posts and 18 votes.
  • [X] Hug and comfort Homura. This is her worst memory -- act accordingly empathetic and understanding, and cleanse regularly throughout.
    -[X] Very gently and carefully: You know what happened. How Madoka asked not to let Kyuubey trick her again. What she asked Homura to do. But keeping her from being tricked doesn't mean keeping her in the dark.
    -[X] Explain why you think Madoka wouldn't wish, from your knowledge of loops that didn't happen. That if Madoka knows what Homura has done to protect her, she will only wish if all other hope is lost. That won't happen this time.
    -[X] You know Homura has tried to tell others about the loops before, and how hard it is for her to talk about it because of everything she's been through. But she's not alone any more. You won't tell Madoka about it if Homura doesn't want you to, but you can help her with it.
    [x] Sabrina
    [X] Hug and comfort Homura. This is her worst memory -- act accordingly empathetic and understanding, and cleanse regularly throughout.
    -[X] Very gently and carefully: You know what happened. How Madoka asked not to let Kyuubey trick her again. What she asked Homura to do. But keeping her from being tricked doesn't mean keeping her in the dark.
    -[X] Explain why you think Madoka wouldn't wish, from your knowledge of loops that didn't happen. That if Madoka knows what Homura has done to protect her, she will only wish if all other hope is lost. That won't happen this time.
    -[X] You know Homura has tried to tell others about the loops before, and how hard it is for her to talk about it because of everything she's been through. But she's not alone any more. You won't tell Madoka about it if Homura doesn't want you to, but you can help her with it.
    -[X] If she feels more comfortable showing us than telling us, we may be able to grief up something that could convert her memories to film or something. She'd still be in control.
    [X] Hug and comfort Homura. Be empathetic and understanding, and cleanse regularly throughout.
    -[X] Very gently and carefully: You know what happened. How Madoka asked not to let Kyuubey trick her again.
    --[X] Or is this something you're wrong about too?
    -[X] If she feels more comfortable showing us than telling us, we may be able to grief up something that could convert her memories to film or something. She'd still be in control.
    --[X] But keeping Madoka from being tricked doesn't mean keeping her in the dark.
    -[X] Explain why you think Madoka wouldn't wish, from your knowledge of loops that didn't happen.
    -[X] Reassure Homura that you won't tell Madoka about it if Homura doesn't want you to, but you can help her with it. She's not alone anymore.
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[X] Hug and comfort Homura. This is her worst memory -- act accordingly empathetic and understanding, and cleanse regularly throughout.
-[X] Very gently and carefully: You know what happened. How Madoka asked not to let Kyuubey trick her again. What she asked Homura to do. But keeping her from being tricked doesn't mean keeping her in the dark.
-[X] Explain why you think Madoka wouldn't wish, from your knowledge of loops that didn't happen. That if Madoka knows what Homura has done to protect her, she will only wish if all other hope is lost. That won't happen this time.
-[X] You know Homura has tried to tell others about the loops before, and how hard it is for her to talk about it because of everything she's been through. But she's not alone any more. You won't tell Madoka about it if Homura doesn't want you to, but you can help her with it.
 
AuraTwilight said:
It's even BETTER than that. She wished for a goal without caring about what the road looks like to get there. She took the ultimate path of least resistance of "Anything can happen, so long as it leads here."

She effectively redirected all the rivers to lead into the same lake
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I distrust that interpretation since, well, for one thing it doesn't match up with what we've seen. Metainfo-wise we've seen that things can in fact go wrong. They can go incredibly wrong if we aren't careful. We've just avoided that end so far.

It's not only the semi-canon alternate timelines either: Our witching out could lead to the end of everything. (It reads like it will take time, so we may be able to put in a backup plan to forestall that, but even so...) Our witching someone else will lead to a fate Oriko considers worse than death.

For another, any sort of predestination just strikes me as inherently flawed given my understand of the way PMMM's cosmology works. The relevant aspect of that being that destiny is born from the confluence of various wills. Which presents a problem when you realize that predetermining something is you saying that your will should have precedence over the will of all others. (Madokami and Walpurgisnacht can get away with flying in the face that but note that both of them are themselves huge collections of souls, Walpurgisnacht from absorbing witches and Madokami from collecting magical girls... and both fell in time.)

Of course, that interpretation isn't cut from the whole cloth of canon material but even discounting it, there's parallels to glean from: Looking at this "lake" as a passive effect, a stable state towards which all actions will inevitably point, we already see the counter to that every time a magical girl wishes: Entropy, after all, could be thought of as the unshakable the will of the universe itself to move ever further towards a certain conclusion. And if people can move against an aspect of reality itself then they can also disagree with the idea of what it means for things to be "fixed" and act against that too.



(On a side note, If we want to move back on the post-Rebellion theoretical track and envision a scenario where the Law of Cycles could be an enemy, here's a fun thought: The Law of Cycles is formed of Madoka + all the girls she's taken in with her. Madokami takes girls on the verge of witching but Madoka herself entered clean. This means that, naturally, the Law of Cycles exists in a state where it's on the verge of witching but for Madoka. Now imagine what must have happened to that equation when Homura removed Madoka from it.


Whoops.)
 
AuraTwilight said:
Hell, Homura interrupted a conversation with Madoka by turning him into swiss cheese.
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She did. And a few moments later, a replacement Kyubey body showed up.

Kyubey has telepathy. He doesn't have to have line of sight to someone to tell them something, and things that would block out the sound of an actual voice wouldn't work.

AuraTwilight said:
So she either had the SAME information or she had MORE,
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Or she had LESS or DIFFERENT information. Homura only gave us a general description of the events of the last loop and didn't specify which events Madoka was or wasn't present for, and has no way of knowing what Kyubey might or might not have said in coversations she wasn't aware even happened, like the ones Kyubey had with Madoka in Episodes 9 & 11. We have know way of knowing for certain whether she had all the same information in the last loop that she had in the series.

AuraTwilight said:
and someone tries to claim that knowing Homura's struggles in proper context doesn't change what she wishes for?
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In case you haven't noticed, I'm arguing the inverse of that: that Madoka could have made a different wish without knowing. There's nothing about that wish that requires her to have known the potentialbomb to make it. No real evidence has been put forth to make the potentialbomb a more likely point of divergence in the timeline than any other.


As for intent in wishes: yes, intent trumps wording. People get what they meant to wish for. But when you invoke that, you should keep in mind that it's not without its limits; people still only get what they wished for, even if it's not what they really wanted. It doesn't grant their unstated desires. That was the whole point of Sayaka's and Kyouko's stories: they got what they wished for, but not what they really wanted.
 
AuraTwilight said:
That's true in the long term, but if Homura keeps killing his vessels and 'shouting' over him with gunfire, there's not much he can really do. Hell, Homura interrupted a conversation with Madoka by turning him into swiss cheese.



But it's not the wish she made in CANON, and everything was the same up to that point. So she either had the SAME information or she had MORE, and only one of those provides a reason for why anything is different.
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Additionally, wishes work off of intent. Why did her wish hand agency over to a non-Madoka if she didn't know that "Madoka fixes everything" inherently PREVENTS Homura's wish from coming true?

It's an entirely, perfectly rational deduction, and is not at all an assumption.



Yes, exactly. Her wish directly implies a potentialbomb if you actually look at how she responds to the Potentialbomb in side-materials like the PSP game, Homura's Revenge, or just, you know. Extrapolate Madoka's personality from the anime towards what makes sense. This is the girl who says that wishes aren't meaningless despite every other source in the series saying so, and without contradicting their inevitable fate to die fighting for those wishes.

Someone who claims with every fiber of her soul, even after becoming a god, that wishes weren't meaningless, and neither was their fighting for them, and someone tries to claim that knowing Homura's struggles in proper context doesn't change what she wishes for? Yea right.



It's even BETTER than that. She wished for a goal without caring about what the road looks like to get there. She took the ultimate path of least resistance of "Anything can happen, so long as it leads here."



She effectively redirected all the rivers to lead into the same lake.
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[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
I have to agree. WE KNOW what her normal, good-hearted, absolutly selfless wish would be... and WE can surmise why it screws over both her AND Homura.
Standard canon Madoka does not, therefore... something changed.

If not, well, why are we there AT ALL? Mami is dead. Homura made her wish. Hitomi got her damn happy ending. The Kures are dead, so is Sayaka.

WHO MADE US? And do not try a copout like 'Kyubey tried to contact a mega high potential girl to fix everything back and it misfired badly"
 
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Many people wonder why they exist - rarely is it actually this important one month into their life.
 
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The Phoenixian said:
I distrust that interpretation since, well, for one thing it doesn't match up with what we've seen. Metainfo-wise we've seen that things can in fact go wrong. They can go incredibly wrong if we aren't careful. We've just avoided that end so far.

It's not only the semi-canon alternate timelines either: Our witching out could lead to the end of everything. (It reads like it will take time, so we may be able to put in a backup plan to forestall that, but even so...) Our witching someone else will lead to a fate Oriko considers worse than death.

For another, any sort of predestination just strikes me as inherently flawed given my understand of the way PMMM's cosmology works. The relevant aspect of that being that destiny is born from the confluence of various wills. Which presents a problem when you realize that predetermining something is you saying that your will should have precedence over the will of all others. (Madokami and Walpurgisnacht can get away with flying in the face that but note that both of them are themselves huge collections of souls, Walpurgisnacht from absorbing witches and Madokami from collecting magical girls... and both fell in time.)

Of course, that interpretation isn't cut from the whole cloth of canon material but even discounting it, there's parallels to glean from: Looking at this "lake" as a passive effect, a stable state towards which all actions will inevitably point, we already see the counter to that every time a magical girl wishes: Entropy, after all, could be thought of as the unshakable the will of the universe itself to move ever further towards a certain conclusion. And if people can move against an aspect of reality itself then they can also disagree with the idea of what it means for things to be "fixed" and act against that too.



(On a side note, If we want to move back on the post-Rebellion theoretical track and envision a scenario where the Law of Cycles could be an enemy, here's a fun thought: The Law of Cycles is formed of Madoka + all the girls she's taken in with her. Madokami takes girls on the verge of witching but Madoka herself entered clean. This means that, naturally, the Law of Cycles exists in a state where it's on the verge of witching but for Madoka. Now imagine what must have happened to that equation when Homura removed Madoka from it.


Whoops.)
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Sigh. Phoenixian, that's not at all what I'm proposing. I explained this on the discord, and I thought it was clear here, but the "all paths leading towards one lake" thing is about paths of least resistance and hitsuzen. Madoka's dream is inevitable assuming things go well because she doesn't care about the process. "As long as things are better" is her goal, not a specific end-point that can be derailed. She made a wish to change the genre conventions.

The Narrator said:
She did. And a few moments later, a replacement Kyubey body showed up.

Kyubey has telepathy. He doesn't have to have line of sight to someone to tell them something, and things that would block out the sound of an actual voice wouldn't work.
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Yea, and none of this matters. If someone puts that much resistance to talking with him, he doesn't talk to them. It's part of his ethics system and he never violates it. He seems to understand someone in this state of mind or action won't internalize his words.

Or she had LESS or DIFFERENT information. Homura only gave us a general description of the events of the last loop and didn't specify which events Madoka was or wasn't present for, and has no way of knowing what Kyubey might or might not have said in coversations she wasn't aware even happened, like the ones Kyubey had with Madoka in Episodes 9 & 11. We have know way of knowing for certain whether she had all the same information in the last loop that she had in the series.
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This isn't consistent with the implications that everyone was pretty much the same up to the last minute. Even if Homura wasn't there for those conversations and can't account for them, they influenced Madoka's behavior during, say, the Octavia event with Kyouko. They influenced Madoka's behavior during Sayaka's funeral and the time she went to Homura's house.

And also, Conservation of Narrative Detail. If there's only one change that Homura can tell us, there was probably only one reason for it.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm arguing the inverse of that: that Madoka could have made a different wish without knowing. There's nothing about that wish that requires her to have known the potentialbomb to make it. No real evidence has been put forth to make the potentialbomb a more likely point of divergence in the timeline than any other.
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Except she specifically made a wish that manifested as preventing the next Madoka from having agency, which implies that she knew it was a problem. Sorry, you don't have a good case, here.

As for intent in wishes: yes, intent trumps wording. People get what they meant to wish for. But when you invoke that, you should keep in mind that it's not without its limits; people still only get what they wished for, even if it's not what they really wanted. It doesn't grant their unstated desires. That was the whole point of Sayaka's and Kyouko's stories: they got what they wished for, but not what they really wanted.
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Well, yea, but they get what they intended to wish for. Sayaka explicitly didn't want to wish for Kyousuke's love because she felt that would make her a shitty person. Kyouko explicitly wanted to wish for those churchfollowers and just EXPECTED her dad to be proud.

I remind that Sayaka's wish was entirely non-verbal, in the canon timeline. You don't actually have to say your wish at all. You merely have to want something, and humans do in fact partition what they mentally think of as a 'wish' in these sorts of situations and consider the consequences as something apart from that.

So the fact that Madoka made this wish, and then seems to have deliberately created Sabrina (the symbolism of firing her arrows is always that of salvation and extending herself; see Sagitta Luminis) is palpable, and if Wally is Sabrina then her creation was a conscious, knowing action.

Madoka made a wish to create Sabrina on purpose. If that's true, she absolutely fucking understood that she can't be the one to do things for Homura's sake.

The Potentialbomb is the only reason why that would make any sense. This point in fact strengthens my argument.
 
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AuraTwilight said:
Sigh. Phoenixian, that's not at all what I'm proposing. I explained this on the discord, and I thought it was clear here, but the "all paths leading towards one lake" thing is about paths of least resistance and hitsuzen. Madoka's dream is inevitable assuming things go well because she doesn't care about the process. "As long as things are better" is her goal, not a specific end-point that can be derailed. She made a wish to change the genre conventions.



Yea, and none of this matters. If someone puts that much resistance to talking with him, he doesn't talk to them. It's part of his ethics system and he never violates it. He seems to understand someone in this state of mind or action won't internalize his words.



This isn't consistent with the implications that everyone was pretty much the same up to the last minute. Even if Homura wasn't there for those conversations and can't account for them, they influenced Madoka's behavior during, say, the Octavia event with Kyouko. They influenced Madoka's behavior during Sayaka's funeral and the time she went to Homura's house.

And also, Conservation of Narrative Detail. If there's only one change that Homura can tell us, there was probably only one reason for it.



Except she specifically made a wish that manifested as preventing the next Madoka from having agency, which implies that she knew it was a problem. Sorry, you don't have a good case, here.



Well, yea, but they get what they intended to wish for. Sayaka explicitly didn't want to wish for Kyousuke's love because she felt that would make her a shitty person. Kyouko explicitly wanted to wish for those churchfollowers and just EXPECTED her dad to be proud.

I remind that Sayaka's wish was entirely non-verbal, in the canon timeline. You don't actually have to say your wish at all. You merely have to want something, and humans do in fact partition what they mentally think of as a 'wish' in these sorts of situations and consider the consequences as something apart from that.

So the fact that Madoka made this wish, and then seems to have deliberately created Sabrina (the symbolism of firing her arrows is always that of salvation and extending herself; see Sagitta Luminis) is palpable, and if Wally is Sabrina then her creation was a conscious, knowing action.

Madoka made a wish to create Sabrina on purpose. If that's true, she absolutely fucking understood that she can't be the one to do things for Homura's sake.

The Potentialbomb is the only reason why that would make any sense. This point in fact strengthens my argument.
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I agree again. Why would Madoka, who desperatly WANTS to help by now, choose another person to be the savior of Meguca... unless she KNOWS that selfsacrifice and becoming the selfless martyr WILL not work.

And Homuras wish is the only reason she would accept....
 
SpeckofStardust said:
Because Madoka has horrible self esteem and thus believes someone would do a better job then herself (I mean she's wrong but eh).
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Then why did she choose to end all witches with her own hands, instead of just wishing them away? No, Madoka's self-esteem problem is that she needs to feel like she's helping. That's why we're going so far out of our way to manage the message she's getting and make sure that she has things to do instead of just keeping her in the dark. If an option were available where she did it herself, she'd have taken it.
 
Vebyast said:
Then why did she choose to end all witches with her own hands, instead of just wishing them away?
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Because she felt as if she could, after all killing witches isn't all that difficult of a thing to do when being told a great many times she could become a Goddess, which is why I don't think she was told as much as she did in the canon timeline.
 
Keep in mind that you can't really predict how a person (or character in this case) may react in a situation with 100% accuracy. Someone may do something that is completely in line with their personality and knowledge, and sometimes they'll do something that you don't expect or is outright contrary to what you may expect. Sometimes people's actions just don't make sense, and that's just kind of how people are, especially when you put them under stress.
 
SpeckofStardust said:
Because she felt as if she could, after all killing witches isn't all that difficult of a thing to do when being told a great many times she could become a Goddess, which is why I don't think she was told as much as she did in the canon timeline.
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So, when told that she could become a Goddess, why did she choose to hand the job to someone else?

We know through the similarities Homura's brought up that she had to know everything she had in the canon timeline at minimum; without the goddess bait, a lot of events in the canon timeline would have gone differently. It influenced her decisions and thus what Homura experienced, you guys.
 
AuraTwilight said:
If someone puts that much resistance to talking with him, he doesn't talk to them. It's part of his ethics system and he never violates it.
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o_O And where exactly was this ever stated in canon?

What we do see in canon is that Kyubey talks to people who don't want to talk to him all the time. In Episode 8 he shows up at Homura's place to talk to her and Kyouko, even though Kyouko points a spear at him and tells him to fuck off. After the witchbomb, Madoka doesn't want anything to do with him, but that doesn't keep him from speechifying at her in Episodes 9 & 11. In PMAS, after Rin learns the lichbomb, she screams and throws him off a building. Another Kyubey body immediately shows up, which we punted. And even after we'd booted him out or pulped him a few times and told him that his presence upsets Mami, he still turned up uninvited to our meeting with Nadia.

In fact, he did the exact thing we're discussing after Mami was lichbombed. We destroyed one of his bodies, and he used telepathy to get in another taunt from somewhere out of sight.

AuraTwilight said:
This isn't consistent with the implications that everyone was pretty much the same up to the last minute. Even if Homura wasn't there for those conversations and can't account for them, they influenced Madoka's behavior during, say, the Octavia event with Kyouko. They influenced Madoka's behavior during Sayaka's funeral and the time she went to Homura's house.

And also, Conservation of Narrative Detail. If there's only one change that Homura can tell us, there was probably only one reason for it.
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Homura's description of the last loop was only a few sentences long and very vague, and we haven't asked for any further details except for the wording of Madoka's wish. There could be tons of small differences in how things went down that we don't know about. Assuming that we already know everything is dangerous.

AuraTwilight said:
Except she specifically made a wish that manifested as preventing the next Madoka from having agency, which implies that she knew it was a problem.
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Madoka knew that contracting was a bad thing at least since the witchbomb. She doesn't need the potentialbomb to know that it's bad thing to be done only out of desperation.

Anyway, Sabrina trying to keep Madoka from contracting isn't an edict from fate, it's a decision we made. You would think it would be obvious that anyone with knowledge of PMMM would make that decision, but there have been a few people in the thread who've suggested that a Madocontract could do more good than we could. I think that's nuts, but if that idea had been more popular, things might have gone very differently.
 
The Narrator said:
o_O And where exactly was this ever stated in canon?

What we do see in canon is that Kyubey talks to people who don't want to talk to him all the time. In Episode 8 he shows up at Homura's place to talk to her and Kyouko, even though Kyouko points a spear at him and tells him to fuck off.
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You mean the scene where Kyouko points a spear at him, asks him what the fuck he's doing there, gets an answer to her question, and then "I can see I'm not wanted. I'll be leaving now"?

And later, when Madoka rebukes him, he says "Sure, well, call me if you ever wanna die for the universe"?

If a girl makes it clear she wants him to fuck off, he always does. It's consistent across the board.

After the witchbomb, Madoka doesn't want anything to do with him, but that doesn't keep him from speechifying at her in Episodes 9 & 11. In PMAS, after Rin learns the lichbomb, she screams and throws him off a building. Another Kyubey body immediately shows up, which we punted. And even after we'd booted him out or pulped him a few times and told him that his presence upsets Mami, he still turned up uninvited to our meeting with Nadia.
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You mean when Kyubey asks if he can come in, and Madoka allows it, and despite being upset at him still chooses to argue with him? Yea, no, doesn't work, bucko.

Also, none of those scenes involve anyone verbally telling Kyubey to get lost, and he's a literalist. Try harder.

In fact, he did the exact thing we're discussing after Mami was lichbombed. We destroyed one of his bodies, and he used telepathy to get in another taunt from somewhere out of sight.
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and when Mami told him to GET OUT, he DID. Gee it's almost as if he always cedes to requests for privacy.

Homura's description of the last loop was only a few sentences long and very vague, and we haven't asked for any further details except for the wording of Madoka's wish. There could be tons of small differences in how things went down that we don't know about. Assuming that we already know everything is dangerous.
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All indications, plus Oriko's and Firns words, strongly paint that it was Canon Loop, minus Potentialbomb plus a different wish. The burden of proof that things are more different than that isn't on me.

Madoka knew that contracting was a bad thing at least since the witchbomb. She doesn't need the potentialbomb to know that it's bad thing to be done only out of desperation.
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Now you're being either deliberately disingenuous or not having the good faith to read what I've been saying up to this point. You know there's a difference between Madoka choosing to sacrifice herself for a higher ideal and Madoka understanding how much she matters to Homura personally. In all canon materials where it comes up, knowing Homura's exact reasoning is the only thing that can convince her not to contract, on any level. Otherwise she tries to rules-lawyer around the other incentives. But there's no rules-lawyering around Homura's PTSD triggers.

...Well, except wishing that someone besides Madoka does everything Madoka wants to do so Madoka doesn't have to step up to plate.

Anyway, Sabrina trying to keep Madoka from contracting isn't an edict from fate, it's a decision we made. You would think it would be obvious that anyone with knowledge of PMMM would make that decision, but there have been a few people in the thread who've suggested that a Madocontract could do more good than we could. I think that's nuts, but if that idea had been more popular, things might have gone very differently.
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I'm aware, I didn't say it's an edict from fate. I'm saying she created someone with the ability, the wisdom, and the determination to create the world Madoka would want, and to have the good sense to keep her from being involved to satisfy the win condition. It might as well be a divine edict because you can't win PMMM if Madoka contracts, by definition.

You can say it's a decision we made, but that just proves that we're the person(s) Madoka wanted. Someone who knew everything about what was going on, and wanted things to be better because they sincerely believe they all deserve better, and have the empathy and obsession to make sure it comes to pass.

That describes the posters as much as it does Sabrina.
 
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AuraTwilight said:
Yea, no, doesn't work, bucko.

Try harder.

Gee it's almost as if
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I apologize for not having much to contribute on the philosophical front at the moment (I haven't had the time or inclination recently to scale the walls of text of the past few pages, as much as I normally like to), but this seems a little unnecessarily vitriolic.
 
I think we can count on Kyuubey to not attempt to make a magical girl without at least getting them to agree to contract and make a wish. I believe that is a requirement for the system however.

I wouldn't count on his 'ethical code' for any other assurance of safety. As there are other possible explanations for him leaving in the circumstances stated.

If his continued presence does not help his goals and could even harm them, there's no point in staying. If he can sum up his message into a 'last words before leaving', he does so. And the appearance of ethics help his attempts to influence people, however dead or witched Meguca tell no tales.
 
Onmur said:
[X] Godwindon
-[Q] Ask Homura if you can call her 'Momu'.
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You might want to correct your spelling of Godwinson's name if you want to vote for his plan.

And 'Mom'u sounds a lot like how Mami was pronounced - at least for how my regional dialect pronounces "Mom" and for some character named Mami that I watched. (Yes everyone was saying 'Mommy' for her name.)
 
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