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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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It doesn't even matter how bad Gretchen is in each loop. The Fix-Everything wish outweighs all of then. How could it not? I would call any series of events ending in something like that to have turned out positive. The power of fixing everything cannot be overstated.

Actually, that does raise the question of how fixing "everything" could happen if Homura is leaving behind a trail of dead alternate Madokas...
 
Vebyast said:
It doesn't even matter how bad Gretchen is in each loop. The Fix-Everything wish outweighs all of then. How could it not? I would call any series of events ending in something like that to have turned out positive. The power of fixing everything cannot be overstated.

Actually, that does raise the question of how fixing "everything" could happen if Homura is leaving behind a trail of dead alternate Madokas...
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But what about the overwritten alternate Homus? Huh? Huh!?!?
 
No, seriously, a string of dead alternate Earths really sounds like something that Madoka's Wish should have fixed. I think we really do need to ask Homura how the previous loops went.
 
Vebyast said:
No, seriously, a string of dead alternate Earths really sounds like something that Madoka's Wish should have fixed. I think we really do need to ask Homura how the previous loops went.
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WMG: Once we 'fix' this time line, replicas of End-game Sabrina will be distributed to the previous timelines to fix them in turn. Possibly plonked down to the beginning of each loop, maybe even at the same alleyway.

Edit:
While I'm at it anyway, what if Riona's Soul Manipulation power could be used to seal a potential meguca's soul, so that the incubators won't be able to make a contract with them?
 
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Maybe Homura might think Madoka at least would be better off dead than contracting, even if the world is better.

On a different topic, can a soul-gem attach to a non-meguca body? If so we could use a temporary volunteer from a non-meguca to hold the soul gem and a borrowed enchantment from Sayaka to clone them a body.

While it may feel creepy to the volunteer, a living body requires less repair than a soulless corpse.
 
Matou Sutegobana said:
Maybe Homura might think Madoka at least would be better off dead than contracting, even if the world is better.

On a different topic, can a soul-gem attach to a non-meguca body? If so we could use a temporary volunteer from a non-meguca to hold the soul gem and a borrowed enchantment from Sayaka to clone them a body.

While it may feel creepy to the volunteer, a living body requires less repair than a soulless corpse.
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I doubt it, since a normal human's got their soul occupying their body.
 
Matou Sutegobana said:
Maybe Homura might think Madoka at least would be better off dead than contracting, even if the world is better.

On a different topic, can a soul-gem attach to a non-meguca body? If so we could use a temporary volunteer from a non-meguca to hold the soul gem and a borrowed enchantment from Sayaka to clone them a body.

While it may feel creepy to the volunteer, a living body requires less repair than a soulless corpse.
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yeah no at most it's theorized megucas could switch bodies, but we've yet to find a willing participant in that. Or rather, yet to have a reason to try.

The Kures would probably be willing. If, again, we had any reason to test this in the first place. Perhaps useful if dewitching is successful- since it's proof of concept that we could construct a soulless body with the help of a healer, and put the dewitched girl into it. But that's getting ahead of ourselves.
 
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JarringToaster said:
It's generally insinuated there was a bunch of timelines between Homura making her promise to Madoka to the timeline where Madoka has escalated to one-shotting Walpurgis and becoming a world-ending Witch.
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Nothing in the editing implies that. Instead it implies that after mercy-killing Madoka in the third timeline, Homura changes from Moemura to Murderface and tries to take out Walpurgisnacht solo, and gets Gretchen as a result. So she keeps trying, again and again and again.

And even if it weren't, there were only about a hundred loops in total, and a hundred times normal Madoka potential doesn't seem like enough to create Ultimate Krimheld Gretchen, which is larger than the entire Earth, and rewrite the laws of the universe.


Onmur said:
I doubt it, since a normal human's got their soul occupying their body.
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Well, there is an example of two souls in one body: the Soujos from Kazumi Magica. Of course, they're insane, so....
 
The Narrator said:
So four times a normal Madoka's potential is enough to destroy the world? That seems dubious.
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JarringToaster said:
It's generally insinuated there was a bunch of timelines between Homura making her promise to Madoka to the timeline where Madoka has escalated to one-shotting Walpurgis and becoming a world-ending Witch.
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Putting aside that post-timeline 3 does sort of seem like it could be a montage, the stats we have of Madoka's first three timelines seem to be CUBING her potential, rather than being merely additive.

Hell, the fact that 'Timeline 4' is what Madoka dreams about in episode one, and then we segue into the mall scene from Homura's POV, implies it's the one immediately before the anime's timeline, so I'm kind of leaning on montage here.
 
I know I've said this before, but if I'm honest I never got the impression Walpurgis died in the first few timelines. Sure people are lying around, not being murdered by a hurricane witch, but look at Homura in the end of the show- she's lying there, totally exposed, and she... completely ignores her. I feel like if loop 0 Madoka (someone who was maybe on Mami's level as far as we can tell) were able to beat Wally, there's no reason that Homura and literally any one other person couldn't do it. If she's done nearly a hundred timelines, I have trouble believing that she's never gotten more than herself to the last fight. Hell- look at TDS. Homura, Madoka, and Sayaka all make it to the last fight, and Homura is forced to loop again.
 
Gadjo said:
I know I've said this before, but if I'm honest I never got the impression Walpurgis died in the first few timelines.
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I agree. Nothing we see in the first timeline indicates that Madoka won. By the time we see the aftermath, it's daybreak and the city is leveled and flooded. Seems like Walpurgisnacht shrugged off everything that was thrown at it, did its thing and moved on.
 
Gadjo said:
I know I've said this before, but if I'm honest I never got the impression Walpurgis died in the first few timelines. Sure people are lying around, not being murdered by a hurricane witch, but look at Homura in the end of the show- she's lying there, totally exposed, and she... completely ignores her. I feel like if loop 0 Madoka (someone who was maybe on Mami's level as far as we can tell) were able to beat Wally, there's no reason that Homura and literally any one other person couldn't do it. If she's done nearly a hundred timelines, I have trouble believing that she's never gotten more than herself to the last fight. Hell- look at TDS. Homura, Madoka, and Sayaka all make it to the last fight, and Homura is forced to loop again.
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The PSP game with Mami's Route (depicting Loop 0) shows that Madoka actually did defeat Walpurgisnacht, with her explicitly saying "I won", before she just collapses and dies. As for why Walpurgisnacht isn't able to be beaten by anyone else in the latter loops, you can chalk it up to resistance to physical attacks, magical "drama powers", the other girls not being as strong, or just inconsistent writing. The point is that it happens.
 
  Offense Speed Initial Magic Defense Stamina Additional Magic Total
Madoka (3) 6 4 1,5 5,5 5,5 0,5 23
Mami 4,5 3 3,5 1 2,5 4 18,5
Kyouko 3 4   3,5 3 3,5 17
Madoka (2) 3,5 2,5 1 3 2,5 0,5 13
Homura     7 1 0,5 2 10,5
Sayaka 1,5 2 2,5 0,5 1   7,5
Madoka (1) 0,5 0,5 0,5 1 0,5 1 4
It's not a simple formula, is the point.

If we take Madoka only:
  Offense Speed Initial Magic Defense Stamina Additional Magic Total
Madoka (3) 6 4 1,5 5,5 5,5 0,5 23
Madoka (2) 3,5 2,5 1 3 2,5 0,5 13
Madoka (1) 0,5 0,5 0,5 1 0,5 1 4
The increase from loop to loop looks sort of linear in some places, but it's not as simple as saying "loop 4 Madoka would have four times the potential of loop 1 Madoka".

The thing to take away from these numbers is really how damn badass Mami is. :V
 
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They also don't say what sort of scale the numbers represent. Is it linear? Logarithmic? Orders of magnitude? Marvel used to do similar power cards for their characters where "normal human" was a 1 and "Hulk Smash" was a 7.
 
4Dname said:
[X] The Phoenixian

I have not gotten a chance to read all the discussion yet but I like the line about asking about the last loop in detail, We really do need that information, and we have held off a long time on asking about it.
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Plan right now is that, if the current bandwagon goes through and Homu takes the next update fine, we'll ask about the past loop the vote next to this one.

Probably starting by asking for Madoka's Wish's exact words and looking into other discrepancies from there.
 
Onmur said:
Plan right now is that, if the current bandwagon goes through and Homu takes the next update fine, we'll ask about the past loop the vote next to this one.

Probably starting by asking for Madoka's Wish's exact words and looking into other discrepancies from there.
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Ok I guess I can jump over to your bandwagon then.

[X] Onmur

Are we also still going to try and warn Homu about the infohazard in a later update if things go well, sorry to ask if its already been stated, I have to go to work... actually right now, so I have not gotten a chance to catch up with the discussion.
Adhoc vote count started by 4Dname on Jul 3, 2017 at 4:22 PM, finished with 120129 posts and 27 votes.
  • [X] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, spanning centuries and continents, and including timelines that, to your knowledge, couldn't have happened. Raise a benign example to illustrate.
    -[X] Mutually discuss what this means for the reliability of your knowledge, with an aim of reassurance.
    [X] If we really are here as a result of Madoka's wish... then we only exist because of the massive effort Homura has put in.
    -[X] Thank Homura for helping you be here. You like existing.
    -[X] (Jokingly.) ...Would this make them ...our mothers? :V
    [X] An insight: Once her friends, including Homura herself, are safe, if Madoka knows the impact her wishing would have on Homura, and all the effort and sacrifice it took Homura to get through the loops... Madoka will respect that effort, and swear off making a wish
    -[x]Ask Homura if she wants to hear information that we believe she might take badly.
    -[x] If yes, inform her that Madoka's potential has been increasing due to Homura's efforts to save her.
    --[x] note that this information doesn't cause any real changes in the grand of things as long as Madoka doesn't make a wish, after all the Incubators efforts to make her a magical girl doesn't change because Madoka was able to be one before the loops started, and that Wally was going to come here no matter what Madoka's potential was anyway.
    [X] Null
    [X] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, spanning centuries and continents, and including timelines that, to your knowledge, couldn't have happened and even weirder things like alternate histories without magic.
    -[X]Raise a benign example.
    -[X] You'd thought that what knowledge you did have of... reality... was accurate, but... Kazusa. And, weirdly, Mami's apartment -- you have three different images of its form, and exactly none of them are right, or even make sense. And apparently the Sakura church is to be demolished, which was not present anywhere in your memories and seems... slightly contradictory? Maybe?
    -[X] Of course, there's also the most obvious thing: you. Sabrina.
    -[X] So... you know it's a lot to ask, but could she tell you about last loop? In... in detail.
    [X] If we really are here as a result of Madoka's wish... then we only exist because of the massive effort Homura has put in.
    -[X] Thank Homura for helping you be here. You like existing.
    -[X] (Jokingly.) ...Would this make them ...our mothers? :V
    [X] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, spanning centuries and continents, and including timelines that, to your knowledge, couldn't have happened and even weirder things like alternate histories without magic.
    -[X]Raise a benign example.
    -[X] You'd thought that what knowledge you did have of... reality... was accurate, but... Kazusa. And, weirdly, Mami's apartment -- you have three different images of its form, and exactly none of them are right, or even make sense. And apparently the Sakura church is to be demolished, which was not present anywhere in your memories and seems... slightly contradictory? Maybe?
    -[X] Of course, there's also the most obvious thing: you. Sabrina.
    -[X] So... you know it's a lot to ask, but could she tell you about last loop? In... in detail.
    [x] Drop the Potential Bomb
    [X]GodwinBrina
    [X] If we really are here as a result of Madoka's wish... then we only exist because of the massive effort Homura has put in.
    -[X] Thank Homura for helping you be here. You like existing.
    -[X] She's kinda like a big sister to us. And to be honest, it's kind of nice to have a family when you don't have one provided for you.
    [X] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, spanning centuries and continents, and including timelines that, to your knowledge, couldn't have happened and even weirder things like alternate histories without magic.
    -[X]Raise a benign example.
    -[X] You'd thought that what knowledge you did have of... reality... was accurate, but... Kazusa. And, weirdly, Mami's apartment -- you have three different images of its form, and exactly none of them are right, or even make sense. And apparently the Sakura church is to be demolished, which was not present anywhere in your memories and seems... slightly contradictory? Maybe?
    -[X] Of course, there's also the most obvious thing: you. Sabrina.
    -[X] So... you know it's a lot to ask, but could she tell you about last loop? In... in detail.
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by 4Dname on Jul 4, 2017 at 1:33 AM, finished with 120181 posts and 27 votes.
  • [X] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, spanning centuries and continents, and including timelines that, to your knowledge, couldn't have happened. Raise a benign example to illustrate.
    -[X] Mutually discuss what this means for the reliability of your knowledge, with an aim of reassurance.
    [X] If we really are here as a result of Madoka's wish... then we only exist because of the massive effort Homura has put in.
    -[X] Thank Homura for helping you be here. You like existing.
    -[X] (Jokingly.) ...Would this make them ...our mothers? :V
    [X] An insight: Once her friends, including Homura herself, are safe, if Madoka knows the impact her wishing would have on Homura, and all the effort and sacrifice it took Homura to get through the loops... Madoka will respect that effort, and swear off making a wish
    -[x]Ask Homura if she wants to hear information that we believe she might take badly.
    -[x] If yes, inform her that Madoka's potential has been increasing due to Homura's efforts to save her.
    --[x] note that this information doesn't cause any real changes in the grand of things as long as Madoka doesn't make a wish, after all the Incubators efforts to make her a magical girl doesn't change because Madoka was able to be one before the loops started, and that Wally was going to come here no matter what Madoka's potential was anyway.
    [X] Null
    [X] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, spanning centuries and continents, and including timelines that, to your knowledge, couldn't have happened and even weirder things like alternate histories without magic.
    -[X]Raise a benign example.
    -[X] You'd thought that what knowledge you did have of... reality... was accurate, but... Kazusa. And, weirdly, Mami's apartment -- you have three different images of its form, and exactly none of them are right, or even make sense. And apparently the Sakura church is to be demolished, which was not present anywhere in your memories and seems... slightly contradictory? Maybe?
    -[X] Of course, there's also the most obvious thing: you. Sabrina.
    -[X] So... you know it's a lot to ask, but could she tell you about last loop? In... in detail.
    [X] If we really are here as a result of Madoka's wish... then we only exist because of the massive effort Homura has put in.
    -[X] Thank Homura for helping you be here. You like existing.
    -[X] (Jokingly.) ...Would this make them ...our mothers? :V
    [X] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, spanning centuries and continents, and including timelines that, to your knowledge, couldn't have happened and even weirder things like alternate histories without magic.
    -[X]Raise a benign example.
    -[X] You'd thought that what knowledge you did have of... reality... was accurate, but... Kazusa. And, weirdly, Mami's apartment -- you have three different images of its form, and exactly none of them are right, or even make sense. And apparently the Sakura church is to be demolished, which was not present anywhere in your memories and seems... slightly contradictory? Maybe?
    -[X] Of course, there's also the most obvious thing: you. Sabrina.
    -[X] So... you know it's a lot to ask, but could she tell you about last loop? In... in detail.
    [x] Drop the Potential Bomb
    [X]GodwinBrina
    [X] If we really are here as a result of Madoka's wish... then we only exist because of the massive effort Homura has put in.
    -[X] Thank Homura for helping you be here. You like existing.
    -[X] She's kinda like a big sister to us. And to be honest, it's kind of nice to have a family when you don't have one provided for you.
    [X] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, spanning centuries and continents, and including timelines that, to your knowledge, couldn't have happened and even weirder things like alternate histories without magic.
    -[X]Raise a benign example.
    -[X] You'd thought that what knowledge you did have of... reality... was accurate, but... Kazusa. And, weirdly, Mami's apartment -- you have three different images of its form, and exactly none of them are right, or even make sense. And apparently the Sakura church is to be demolished, which was not present anywhere in your memories and seems... slightly contradictory? Maybe?
    -[X] Of course, there's also the most obvious thing: you. Sabrina.
    -[X] So... you know it's a lot to ask, but could she tell you about last loop? In... in detail.
Click to expand...
 
4Dname said:
Ok I guess I can jump over to your bandwagon then.

[X] Onmur

Are we also still going to try and warn Homu about the infohazard in a later update if things go well, sorry to ask if its already been stated, I have to go to work... actually right now, so I have not gotten a chance to catch up with the discussion.
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Well, it's not my bandwagon, but it counts.

Given Firn's warnings, the plan to tell Homura about the Loopbomb is shelved indefinitely. Only thing to do is to prevent a situation in which KB would want to bomb Homura from happening and try to build up Homura into a mindset in which she can take the Loopbomb without despairing utterly.
 
Onmur said:
  Offense Speed Initial Magic Defense Stamina Additional Magic Total
Madoka (3) 6 4 1,5 5,5 5,5 0,5 23
Mami 4,5 3 3,5 1 2,5 4 18,5
Kyouko 3 4   3,5 3 3,5 17
Madoka (2) 3,5 2,5 1 3 2,5 0,5 13
Homura     7 1 0,5 2 10,5
Sayaka 1,5 2 2,5 0,5 1   7,5
Madoka (1) 0,5 0,5 0,5 1 0,5 1 4
It's not a simple formula, is the point.

If we take Madoka only:
  Offense Speed Initial Magic Defense Stamina Additional Magic Total
Madoka (3) 6 4 1,5 5,5 5,5 0,5 23
Madoka (2) 3,5 2,5 1 3 2,5 0,5 13
Madoka (1) 0,5 0,5 0,5 1 0,5 1 4
The increase from loop to loop looks sort of linear in some places, but it's not as simple as saying "loop 4 Madoka would have four times the potential of loop 1 Madoka".

The thing to take away from these numbers is really how damn badass Mami is. :V
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Stats for Sabrina?
When the story started, what was her stats then?
And what's her stats now, so i can see how much better she has gotten.
If anyone could give me this it would have been super cool.
 
Onmur said:
Given Firn's warnings, the plan to tell Homura about the Loopbomb is shelved indefinitely. Only thing to do is to prevent a situation in which KB would want to bomb Homura from happening and try to build up Homura into a mindset in which she can take the Loopbomb without despairing utterly.
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Given that Firn said nobody has guessed what would happen, her despairing is pretty far down my list of things likely to happen.

What we could do is get Asunaro to help make her incapable of hearing the bomb.
 
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