Gadjo
Doka
Ehhhh both of those things are pretty shady, and we should probably remind as few people as possible ever that we did that.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Also,
*Intrigued hoorays!?*
[] "Does that give you the right to throw her Soul away?"
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
"Wouldn't you rather have a long, happy life with her instead? Isn't she worth that, to you?"
- Location
- Illinois
Kay. Redshirt, are we in agreement that without precog spiral, nothing we say is actually going to directly change her mind on this?
'Cause at this point we can back down and try the subtle matchmaking or we can precog spiral her. There is no counterargument to what she just said without that. We could try to go around it and find some other point as Higure suggests, but... @Higure, are you sure this isn't Oriko being rebellious towards us in some fashion? It seems like she's calling out our tendency of interfering with everyone and everything until we're comfortable that nobody is dying.
Let's not call Oriko on Kirika, here, that's a vindictive strategy that will probably bring the conversation in a more hostile direction. I... if we talk about Kirika at all in that context we need to do the subtle pushing thing instead. Trying that angle will make us no friends and win us no victories, because the response to feeling attacked in a conversation is to get defensive.
@AuraTwilight, you're talking to depressed Oriko. She doesn't think that can happen and she'll take the question as a slight and/or an insult. Like asking a mourning widow if she wouldn't rather have a long happy life with her dead partner.
This goes double for everyone who is questioning Oriko on this. What she's saying makes sense to her. Precognition means seeing the future, perceiving the future. For us the present is the only certain context, but for Oriko, the future has become just as much a fact as the present. Her death and Kirika's alongside her are just as much fact to her as the death of a spouse is a fact to a husband/wife who has been widowed for long enough for the fact to sink in.
[X] Nonvocalized: [the sentiment here is matter-of-fact and "Okay, enough beating around the bush." Body language and other subtextual marks if at all possible should reflect that. You're completely certain of what you're about to say, not because you know it to be fact, but because you have a wealth of reason to believe it and because you reject the alternatives.]
[X] Agree. It's absolutely her right to choose death. And you've started to realize just how real it is to her, recently. Perhaps that was your mistake -- you'd hoped to convince her against the facts as she knew them.
[X] Unfortunately, while her powers are magical and therefore everything they show her is accurate, she is a human and fallible, and her powers will only show her what she wants to see, whether that decision is conscious or not.
-[X] With that fact taken into account, everything else together quite thoroughly. After all, Oriko wished to know the meaning of her life, not her death. And a wish can only do so much on its own, especially in the face of suicidal depression. She should really see a psychiatrist for that, even if the profession is rather non-Japanese, because clearly we've failed at trying to be one.
--[X] If the feathers are raised as a topic that isn't explained: The feathers are something else entirely, and you'll say no more of them until you have a better understanding of how and why they exist, because they shouldn't.
--[X] If the theory is criticized as being potentially incorrect, note that you're neither an incubator nor a specialist, and either one could be quite reasonably brought in for an opinion.
--[X] If Oriko somehow comes up with a meaningful counterargument to this, cut to voting. Otherwise, as possible, demolish any counterarguments she offers. She is very obviously both suicidal and depressed; she wished to know the meaning of her life and she's spent the past two weeks trying to get herself killed on and off.
--[X] If at any time Oriko simply accepts this and then does a self-evaluation using this as fact, cut to voting when a segment endpoint is reached.
'Cause at this point we can back down and try the subtle matchmaking or we can precog spiral her. There is no counterargument to what she just said without that. We could try to go around it and find some other point as Higure suggests, but... @Higure, are you sure this isn't Oriko being rebellious towards us in some fashion? It seems like she's calling out our tendency of interfering with everyone and everything until we're comfortable that nobody is dying.
Let's not call Oriko on Kirika, here, that's a vindictive strategy that will probably bring the conversation in a more hostile direction. I... if we talk about Kirika at all in that context we need to do the subtle pushing thing instead. Trying that angle will make us no friends and win us no victories, because the response to feeling attacked in a conversation is to get defensive.
@AuraTwilight, you're talking to depressed Oriko. She doesn't think that can happen and she'll take the question as a slight and/or an insult. Like asking a mourning widow if she wouldn't rather have a long happy life with her dead partner.
This goes double for everyone who is questioning Oriko on this. What she's saying makes sense to her. Precognition means seeing the future, perceiving the future. For us the present is the only certain context, but for Oriko, the future has become just as much a fact as the present. Her death and Kirika's alongside her are just as much fact to her as the death of a spouse is a fact to a husband/wife who has been widowed for long enough for the fact to sink in.
[X] Nonvocalized: [the sentiment here is matter-of-fact and "Okay, enough beating around the bush." Body language and other subtextual marks if at all possible should reflect that. You're completely certain of what you're about to say, not because you know it to be fact, but because you have a wealth of reason to believe it and because you reject the alternatives.]
[X] Agree. It's absolutely her right to choose death. And you've started to realize just how real it is to her, recently. Perhaps that was your mistake -- you'd hoped to convince her against the facts as she knew them.
[X] Unfortunately, while her powers are magical and therefore everything they show her is accurate, she is a human and fallible, and her powers will only show her what she wants to see, whether that decision is conscious or not.
-[X] With that fact taken into account, everything else together quite thoroughly. After all, Oriko wished to know the meaning of her life, not her death. And a wish can only do so much on its own, especially in the face of suicidal depression. She should really see a psychiatrist for that, even if the profession is rather non-Japanese, because clearly we've failed at trying to be one.
--[X] If the feathers are raised as a topic that isn't explained: The feathers are something else entirely, and you'll say no more of them until you have a better understanding of how and why they exist, because they shouldn't.
--[X] If the theory is criticized as being potentially incorrect, note that you're neither an incubator nor a specialist, and either one could be quite reasonably brought in for an opinion.
--[X] If Oriko somehow comes up with a meaningful counterargument to this, cut to voting. Otherwise, as possible, demolish any counterarguments she offers. She is very obviously both suicidal and depressed; she wished to know the meaning of her life and she's spent the past two weeks trying to get herself killed on and off.
--[X] If at any time Oriko simply accepts this and then does a self-evaluation using this as fact, cut to voting when a segment endpoint is reached.
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- Location
- South Africa
[]It's also your right to live.
-[]Maybe you don't believe that, but it is.
[]The fact that you looked up to your father's ideals isn't a crime, Oriko.
-[]Didn't you want to be like the way you believed he was?
--[]That doesn't mean committing suicide like him. It means living and working for a better world.
---[]It's not just a dream, Oriko. You can have it, if you work with me.
[]If you insist on punishing yourself, you're punishing the word as well by taking it away from them.
[]I know you don't believe this, but the world will be diminished with your loss. Do you really want to steal such a treasure from the world?
Right. Start of a skeleton
-[]Maybe you don't believe that, but it is.
[]The fact that you looked up to your father's ideals isn't a crime, Oriko.
-[]Didn't you want to be like the way you believed he was?
--[]That doesn't mean committing suicide like him. It means living and working for a better world.
---[]It's not just a dream, Oriko. You can have it, if you work with me.
[]If you insist on punishing yourself, you're punishing the word as well by taking it away from them.
[]I know you don't believe this, but the world will be diminished with your loss. Do you really want to steal such a treasure from the world?
Right. Start of a skeleton
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Any argument we make will draw a response of "my precog told me so". Even the emotional arguments won't work, because her precog is now dead and she'll continue going off the last thing she saw from it. Subtle matchmaking won't work.
I'm actually really worried about her soul appearing to have fixed itself. The only way I see for her to be in agreement with her wish right now is for her to have really, truly decided that she needs to die. Given the speech we just gave her, guess what, that's our fault.
[] Break her faith in her precognition.
That's the entire vote.
:/
I'm actually really worried about her soul appearing to have fixed itself. The only way I see for her to be in agreement with her wish right now is for her to have really, truly decided that she needs to die. Given the speech we just gave her, guess what, that's our fault.
[] Break her faith in her precognition.
That's the entire vote.
:/
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The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Well, we didn't ask Homura to keep an eye on her, so right about now Sayaka is probably throwing the Clear Seed we gave her down a sewer drain out of spite and going off to get herself killed.... 
Well, she's set us up pretty well for calling bullshit. As I've said before, lots of shit from Oriko's visions hasn't come to pass because we didn't let it. The only way that Oriko's death is any different is that she doesn't want to avert it.
Nothing and no reason. She's just depressed, and this is a convenient excuse to commit suicide.
- Location
- Illinois
Well, we didn't ask Homura to keep an eye on her, so right about now Sayaka is probably throwing the Clear Seed we gave her down a sewer drain out of spite and going off to get herself killed....
...
I have no words, Narrator.
If it's so terrible, we'll ask Homura to timestop by Sayaka's place tonight. We could even go with her. But like... I just don't feel like Sayaka is suicidal, raging, or depressed right now.
She's vulnerable, for sure. And she should absolutely be checked on soon. I just... you're absolutely going overboard with that assertion.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Brina heating up the discussion puts me in a confrontantional mood.
[ ] I say three times BULLSHIT. You can live and improve the world better than you could die and improve the world. Either way you act to make the world a better place.
-[ ] Suiciding is just you running away, refusing to accept that you don't have a responsibility to carry the world on your shoulders.
-[ ] You're scared to let go of the guilt of living when everybody else died; you feel guilty because you still want to be happy after that, but you won't allow yourself to be happy. You won't allow Kirika to make you feel happy either, no matter how much she gives herself to you.
-[ ] You could have Wished for it, you know? To choose your purpose, or to have it all back as it was before, if you just allowed yourself to say the words. You didn't; you still haven't accepted that it's all gone, that everything's moved on without you and you were left alone to pick up the pieces.
--[ ] So you're stuck with a suicidal Wish that can only show you how to kill yourself in some childish, useless martydom because you won't look for other futures. How did you put it? Some choices aren't? That's your choice to start with.
Short version:
[] 3° Bullshit - her suicide does not have anything to do with bettering the world.
[] She's just taking the easy way out because survivor's guilt, not knowing how to be happy without life being what it used to be for her before it all went to shit, refusing to be happy despite wanting it.
[] So she Wished to die, and won't simply choose to change that.
[ ] I say three times BULLSHIT. You can live and improve the world better than you could die and improve the world. Either way you act to make the world a better place.
-[ ] Suiciding is just you running away, refusing to accept that you don't have a responsibility to carry the world on your shoulders.
-[ ] You're scared to let go of the guilt of living when everybody else died; you feel guilty because you still want to be happy after that, but you won't allow yourself to be happy. You won't allow Kirika to make you feel happy either, no matter how much she gives herself to you.
-[ ] You could have Wished for it, you know? To choose your purpose, or to have it all back as it was before, if you just allowed yourself to say the words. You didn't; you still haven't accepted that it's all gone, that everything's moved on without you and you were left alone to pick up the pieces.
--[ ] So you're stuck with a suicidal Wish that can only show you how to kill yourself in some childish, useless martydom because you won't look for other futures. How did you put it? Some choices aren't? That's your choice to start with.
Short version:
[] 3° Bullshit - her suicide does not have anything to do with bettering the world.
[] She's just taking the easy way out because survivor's guilt, not knowing how to be happy without life being what it used to be for her before it all went to shit, refusing to be happy despite wanting it.
[] So she Wished to die, and won't simply choose to change that.
- Location
- Illinois
Gonna repost this cuz I edited it.
Vebyast's "break her faith in precognition" is accurate. I'd like to add some stuff to that, I think --
[X] Nonvocalized: [the sentiment here is matter-of-fact and "Okay, enough beating around the bush." Body language and other subtextual marks if at all possible should reflect that. You're completely certain of what you're about to say, not because you know it to be fact, but because you have a wealth of reason to believe it and because you reject the alternatives.]
[X] Agree. It's absolutely her right to choose death. And you've started to realize just how real it is to her, recently. Perhaps that was your mistake -- you'd hoped to convince her against the facts as she knew them.
[X] Unfortunately, while her powers are magical and therefore everything they show her is accurate, she is a human and fallible, and her powers will only show her what she wants to see, whether that decision is conscious or not.
-[X] With that fact taken into account, everything else together quite thoroughly. After all, Oriko wished to know the meaning of her life, not her death. And a wish can only do so much on its own, especially in the face of suicidal depression. She should really see a psychiatrist for that, even if the profession is rather non-Japanese, because clearly we've failed at trying to be one.
--[X] If the feathers are raised as a topic that isn't explained: The feathers are something else entirely, and you'll say no more of them until you have a better understanding of how and why they exist, because they shouldn't.
--[X] If the theory is criticized as being potentially incorrect, note that you're neither an incubator nor a specialist, and either one could be quite reasonably brought in for an opinion.
--[X] If Oriko somehow comes up with a meaningful counterargument to this, cut to voting. Otherwise, as possible, demolish any counterarguments she offers. She is very obviously both suicidal and depressed; she wished to know the meaning of her life and she's spent the past two weeks trying to get herself killed on and off.
--[X] If at any time Oriko simply accepts this and then does a self-evaluation using this as fact, cut to voting when a segment endpoint is reached.
[] <Sentiments, body language, etc>
[] Acknowledge almost everything Oriko just said as true. Will help throw her balance, may make argument seem more reasonable.
[] Break her faith in her precognition
[] Feathers contingency, feathers aren't related to the problem with her precog.
[] Reasonable criticism contingency, getting a QB in here to say that her emotions could absolutely have influenced what her precog showed her is something that may have to happen before she'll accept it
[] Bust any arguments that aren't worth voting about
[] Cut to voting if objectives are reached
Vebyast's "break her faith in precognition" is accurate. I'd like to add some stuff to that, I think --
[X] Nonvocalized: [the sentiment here is matter-of-fact and "Okay, enough beating around the bush." Body language and other subtextual marks if at all possible should reflect that. You're completely certain of what you're about to say, not because you know it to be fact, but because you have a wealth of reason to believe it and because you reject the alternatives.]
[X] Agree. It's absolutely her right to choose death. And you've started to realize just how real it is to her, recently. Perhaps that was your mistake -- you'd hoped to convince her against the facts as she knew them.
[X] Unfortunately, while her powers are magical and therefore everything they show her is accurate, she is a human and fallible, and her powers will only show her what she wants to see, whether that decision is conscious or not.
-[X] With that fact taken into account, everything else together quite thoroughly. After all, Oriko wished to know the meaning of her life, not her death. And a wish can only do so much on its own, especially in the face of suicidal depression. She should really see a psychiatrist for that, even if the profession is rather non-Japanese, because clearly we've failed at trying to be one.
--[X] If the feathers are raised as a topic that isn't explained: The feathers are something else entirely, and you'll say no more of them until you have a better understanding of how and why they exist, because they shouldn't.
--[X] If the theory is criticized as being potentially incorrect, note that you're neither an incubator nor a specialist, and either one could be quite reasonably brought in for an opinion.
--[X] If Oriko somehow comes up with a meaningful counterargument to this, cut to voting. Otherwise, as possible, demolish any counterarguments she offers. She is very obviously both suicidal and depressed; she wished to know the meaning of her life and she's spent the past two weeks trying to get herself killed on and off.
--[X] If at any time Oriko simply accepts this and then does a self-evaluation using this as fact, cut to voting when a segment endpoint is reached.
[] <Sentiments, body language, etc>
[] Acknowledge almost everything Oriko just said as true. Will help throw her balance, may make argument seem more reasonable.
[] Break her faith in her precognition
[] Feathers contingency, feathers aren't related to the problem with her precog.
[] Reasonable criticism contingency, getting a QB in here to say that her emotions could absolutely have influenced what her precog showed her is something that may have to happen before she'll accept it
[] Bust any arguments that aren't worth voting about
[] Cut to voting if objectives are reached
UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[] You believe so much in your precognition, when the future is always in motion. You invest so much in the future, yet you neglect the present. No, it does not have to be this way. Your powers are not absolute. You are in control, not your powers. Vision or no vision, what matters are the decisions you make, not what you see with your magic. You believe that a better world is worth dying for. I don't. I believe that a better world is worth living for. There is so much to live for, things that are usually taken for granted. Wouldn't you want to live a happy life with Kirika, for instance?
__________
This is more of a stream of thoughts. Take whichever parts would help in the actual vote.
__________
This is more of a stream of thoughts. Take whichever parts would help in the actual vote.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
It's been observed that Oriko's soul is untwisting as we're angering her.
She might be at risk of going back to being our enemy if we keep cocking this up.
She might be at risk of going back to being our enemy if we keep cocking this up.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
I'll note that we're also pissing her off while we're unable to contact Homura for an emergency timestop. This could go very, very wrong.
It explicitly says it's not returning to normal, it sounds more like it's finished doing what it was doing and is settling down. Wouldn't be all that surprised if she no longer needed the anti-pain ring soon.
Edit: *snip*
Also insert another 'Oriko's precog may be limited to her own current viewpoint/personality' here, though there's no real way to test that outside of having Sayaka give her a poke and that brings it's own brand of fun.
Edit: *snip*
Also insert another 'Oriko's precog may be limited to her own current viewpoint/personality' here, though there's no real way to test that outside of having Sayaka give her a poke and that brings it's own brand of fun.
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- Location
- South Africa
Well, we didn't ask Homura to keep an eye on her, so right about now Sayaka is probably throwing the Clear Seed we gave her down a sewer drain out of spite and going off to get herself killed....
This isn't how Sayaka operates.
Also, most of you are missing the important thing here. Oriko just admitted she wants to die. As such, arguing that she doesn't have to or that there are ways to avoid it aren't going to help. We need to stop her from wanting it.
Muramasa
Best Girl
[x] Tone: Gentle. Don't raise your voice. Don't antagonize.
[x] But why does it have to be Oriko?
[x] Your powers showed you what you wanted. A way to die meaningfully. But that's not what you wished for.
[x] It's true, you have the right to throw your life away, if you wanted. And Kirika would follow you all the way to the bitter end because she loves you. But it's such a waste. I don't believe that's what you really want.
[x] Yes, you have the right to die. But you also have the right to live. You have the right to pursue happiness. You have the right to rebuild your life and have a future after all of this. If you want it.
[x] But why does it have to be Oriko?
[x] Your powers showed you what you wanted. A way to die meaningfully. But that's not what you wished for.
[x] It's true, you have the right to throw your life away, if you wanted. And Kirika would follow you all the way to the bitter end because she loves you. But it's such a waste. I don't believe that's what you really want.
[x] Yes, you have the right to die. But you also have the right to live. You have the right to pursue happiness. You have the right to rebuild your life and have a future after all of this. If you want it.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
She's not using it.
This feels like the most pointed argument we've ever made to Oriko, and it feels like it's picking up traction.
Re: Sayaka
I think she'll be fine. She might be really mad at Sabrina right now, but I doubt that extends (or at least not as much) to Mami and Homura. If she or Hitomi are in trouble, they can still contact Homura for help.
Also:
I think she'll be fine. She might be really mad at Sabrina right now, but I doubt that extends (or at least not as much) to Mami and Homura. If she or Hitomi are in trouble, they can still contact Homura for help.
Also:
@Firnagzen We didn't directly answer Homura's question. Was that intentional?