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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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I think some people are overstimating what can be done with the hammer.

I don't remember any meguca aside from Mami who've developed their magical weapon. Most just use them as is, right? Plus, Mami's weapons are pretty damn conceptual, so they would seem perfect for pairing with enchantment.

Even if you consider Kyouko's Chain Walls to be expressions of her spear, it's not exactly anything special, just making a lot of it. We could also make gigantic hammers, or materialze only the shaft of the hammer to use it as a railgun projectile.

I think our hammer is a hammer. The only advantadges it's got over Grief is how quickly we can make it and that we can throw it beyond our range.

If we want, we can make a replica of our Hammer with Grief, one that's as light as the original one, that hits as strong, or maybe harder, hell, we could make it with an effect that improves our fighting style, like when we made the Combat Harness thing. The downside is simply how fucking long it'd take to do all of that, and that it'd ping as 'Witch'.

Anyway, I think what Mami does with her ribbons is pretty much enchantment aided by her ribbons being conceptual weapons. If people want to use our hammer to break things conceptually, maybe even 'ban' things, we'd need to practice Enchantment.

Redshirt Army said:
Hideously overcosted. I'd reduce the cost to 3 Grief, 4 at most.

Hearthstone doesn't have scry effects, but Magic does, and from my experience, in Magic, Scry 5 would be about as good as 'draw a card'- and only keeping one card on top isn't as good as Scry 5.

I'm not sure what deck size you're envisioning - the smaller it is, the better effects to dig through it are - but even with a thirty card deck size doubling the efficiency compared to MtG, "draw two" costs 3, and the surcharge for a repeatable effect is only 2, for a total of 5.



This promotes rush face decks - the later in the game it is, the more likely you're above 20 corruption, and that using this will kill you. So you're encouraged to play it early and rush the game before the cost becomes relevant, meaning that you have an extra 8/8 at the start of the game that prevents removal. See Shaman in Hearthstone for an idea of what big minions in the early game mean.

I don't think Oriko fits with the super aggressive aggro archetype, so I'd just replace this entirely. Something that reveals the opponents hand, maybe?
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Ran out of steam. Don't wanna play pretend being game designer. :V

An Oriko Deck probably would use an Ability that'd heavily benefit from being able to predict things (Counterspell/Traps), and an Ability that allows one to predict things (Reveal Cards, I guess). Thing would be that if you know your opponent's deck well enough, you don't need to scry shit, you just Counter their best moves when it'd be approrpiate to make them, then you win.

If I really wanted to actually make a PMMM based card expansion, I'd probably actually use HS as an standard, just to have a handle on what's getting overpowered/underpowered. But I'm bored now. :p
 
Onmur said:
If I really wanted to actualyl make a PMMM based card expansion, I'd probably actually use HS as an standard, just to have a handle on what's getting overpowered/underpowered. But I'm bored now. :p
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I'm reluctant to feed the tangent right when it's dying, but the TtS discord has a channel where people are working on a PMMM card game. It's not hearthstone-based at all though.
 
Onmur said:
I think some people are overstimating what can be done with the hammer.

I don't remember any meguca aside from Mami who've developed their magical weapon. Most just use them as is, right? Plus, Mami's weapons are pretty damn conceptual, so they would seem perfect for pairing with enchantment.

Even if you consider Kyouko's Chain Walls to be expressions of her spear, it's not exactly anything special, just making a lot of it. We could also make gigantic hammers, or materialze only the shaft of the hammer to use it as a railgun projectile.

I think our hammer is a hammer. The only advantadges it's got over Grief is how quickly we can make it and that we can throw it beyond our range.

If we want, we can make a replica of our Hammer with Grief, one that's as light as the original one, that hits as strong, or maybe harder, hell, we could make it with an effect that improves our fighting style, like when we made the Combat Harness thing. The downside is simply how fucking long it'd take to do all of that, and that it'd ping as 'Witch'.

Anyway, I think what Mami does with her ribbons is pretty much enchantment aided by her ribbons being conceptual weapons. If people want to use our hammer to break things conceptually, maybe even 'ban' things, we'd need to practice Enchantment.


Ran out of steam. Don't wanna play pretend being game designer. :V

An Oriko Deck probably would use an Ability that'd heavily benefit from being able to predict things (Counterspell/Traps), and an Ability that allows one to predict things (Reveal Cards, I guess). Thing would be that if you know your opponent's deck well enough, you don't need to scry shit, you just Counter their best moves when it'd be approrpiate to make them, then you win.

If I really wanted to actually make a PMMM based card expansion, I'd probably actually use HS as an standard, just to have a handle on what's getting overpowered/underpowered. But I'm bored now. :p
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Actually, didn't we try to make a grief hammer before? Iirc, the grief hammer acted basically like an object of that size did, while the magic hammer by default was lighter/more easy to swing and a ridiculous force multiplier.
 
Appletank said:
Actually, didn't we try to make a grief hammer before? Iirc, the grief hammer acted basically like an object of that size did, while the magic hammer by default was lighter/more easy to swing and a ridiculous force multiplier.
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Yeah, I was just looking up that bit myself.

I think this is as much experimentation as we've done with the hammer. Quoted for your convenience:
Firnagzen said:
For now... you summon a warhammer, a sudden surge of magic coalescing into a meter long piece of steel. The warhammer drops into your hand, your grip closing around its handle and you spin it lightly, looping through several rapid strikes at an invisible opponent. You've... never really come out ahead in a melee clash, but still. You know how to use this.

You concentrate for a moment, focusing your will upon a spot ten meters up. It takes effort, to your surprise, but you manage to form a warhammer ten meters up, and sidestep sharply as it falls to the ground with a clang. You stoop and heft the new hammer, spinning it lightly in your hand. It feels exactly the same as your other one.

Hmm.

So what, then, of Grief? You dismiss one of the hammers from your hand, and raise it towards the enormous mass of Grief you've been dragging around the whole day. From the brooding mass of spheres, you draw a single sphere out, and forge it into a replica of your warhammer that you tug towards you. The grip smacks into your hand, the hammer pinging off your senses as Witch.

Immediately, you're struck by the weight. Your warhammer feels light as a feather in your hand, whereas this one... well, it feels like a meter long rod of steel with a heavy, armour piercing head on top. You place your warhammer on the ground, and take an experimental, two-handed swing with the one made of Grief.

The swing nearly overbalances you. The unexpected momentum of the thing, so different from your hammer, nearly has you tripping over your own feet.

... hunh.

You kneel and grab the magic-formed warhammer, holding both up in front of you. They look exactly the same, but the one on your left, the one forged of Grief, screams Witch in your senses. It also feels considerably heavier. And yet you get the distinct feeling that if you weighed them, they'd weigh exactly the same.

Magic is such bullshit.

But the one made of Grief... an effort of will gives it a viciously sharp pickax head, and then it flows into a rounded mace head.

Hmm.

On the other hand, you should be able to make it lighter, too. You drop your normal warhammer again, and focus on the Grief one. An effort of will has it feeling equally as light as your usual warhammer, and you take a careful swing with it. This time, it handles properly.

Contemplatively, you heft it back over your shoulder, and then slam it through a heavy, overhand blow at the ground in front of you, punching a hammerhead shaped divot in the asphalt with an enormous cracking noise.

You take a step to the side, picking up your magic warhammer. You repeat the blow, trying to put an equal amount of force behind it - and promptly smash a crater out of the asphalt. A crater, as opposed to a simple divot.

Hmm.

You plop down onto the asphalt, looking at the two different holes gouged out of the parking lot. Your testing methodology isn't terribly scientific, but you have a feeling that the hammer, your hammer, wouldn't work the same in someone else's hands. You make a grumbling noise, snorting through your nose in annoyance.
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Our hammer has some kind of mass effect thing going on, where we can swing it like it's light as a father, but it hits like it's as heavy as an anvil.
 
Appletank said:
Actually, didn't we try to make a grief hammer before? Iirc, the grief hammer acted basically like an object of that size did, while the magic hammer by default was lighter/more easy to swing and a ridiculous force multiplier.
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We can make the Grief Hammer as light as the normal Warhammer.

The Warhammer hits really hard, but I'm pretty sure we can also will that property into a Grief Hammer.

Basically, we can make weapons that are stronger, lighter, better than our normal Warhammer. It just requires a lot of preparation time the Warhammer doesn't.
 
The Narrator said:
Thousands of people did. It was called Yu-Gi-Oh. :p
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Nah, that makes things even more ridiculous.

Yu-Gi-Oh is where, as part of your turn in a card game, you ride your flying motorcycle into space, turn Super Saiyan, and then change the future by using Spiral Power to create a giant dragon that never existed in the future, all in order to kill God :V

And that's only a few weeks after one of your best friends used raw hot blood to make Satan his bitch.
 
If we weren't sending Sayaka to Koko for training, I'd wonder if the Grief Combat Harness could be set to 'match Sayaka's skill level', which would make it really useful for helping train Sayaka.
 
Onmur said:
We can make the Grief Hammer as light as the normal Warhammer.
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We did, but the result didn't hit anywhere near as hard as the normal warhammer did. The grief hammer made a hammerhead sized divot, while the normal hammer made a crater.

EDIT: If our attempt to summon a hammer san head works, then we should be able to summon hammerheads without a handle, which would be far better choices for use as Grief-launched projectiles.
 
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Appletank said:
Actually, didn't we try to make a grief hammer before? Iirc, the grief hammer acted basically like an object of that size did, while the magic hammer by default was lighter/more easy to swing and a ridiculous force multiplier.
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This the only real advantage of the magic hammer: speed. Sabrina's grief-bending abilities are powerful, but the wings are the only part of it that seem reflexive. The hammer also has a clear advantage in speed and ease of use over the grief substitute we tried making.

When Sabrina fought in Sendai, it seemed like one of her weaknesses was getting overwhelmed by the pace of combat. Expanding Sabrina's ability to do useful things in combat with the hammer or wings would probably improve her ability to handle that pace. That's something grief can't replace without prep time for something like the harness. It's the kind of thing Mami and Homura have as huge advantages over newbies like Sabrina and Sayaka: intelligent, controlled, versatile action at speed.

Frankly, this isn't obviously a priority for Sabrina, but is the kind of thing she's working on in training like this, which is why she isn't using much grief-bending right now. That's the only reason I bring it up. I don't think we should spend a lot of time on this, except incidentally to good relations with Mami and Sayaka.

However, speaking of meguca weapons and conceptual properties thereof, I speculate that they would almost always need some sort of conceptual extension of properties. Witches are weird, and variable, and a sword that could cut no better than a piece of steel would often be completely useless, whereas a magically cutting sword would be more or less reliable. Sort of like the magical trick to make large jumps without cracking concrete on takeoff and landing; it's a conceptual extension of jumping that allows one to jump well regardless of the durability of the surface one launches from or lands on.

It looks like Sabrina's hammer already has the basic conceptual enhancements I'd expect. Maybe we could go further in that vein, but I'm not enthusiastic, because her wings seem like they might also count as a favored weapon. It seems like a promising and relatively easy thing to mess with the morphology of the wings, maybe split them into lots of tendrils for close-in defense. If we did just one magic weapon thing in this training session, I'd recommend that one.
 
The Narrator said:
We did, but the result didn't hit anywhere near as hard as the normal warhammer did. The grief hammer made a hammerhead sized divot, while the normal hammer made a crater.
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Onmur said:
The Warhammer hits really hard, but I'm pretty sure we can also will that property into a Grief Hammer.
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Redshirt Army said:
Hey, look, they're already on the same page! They'll be compatriots in suffering Sabrina and Mami's madness soon enough!
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Not until they get Chibi Hugs.
 
The Narrator said:
We did, but the result didn't hit anywhere near as hard as the normal warhammer did. The grief hammer made a hammerhead sized divot, while the normal hammer made a crater.

EDIT: If our attempt to summon a hammer san head works, then we should be able to summon hammerheads without a handle, which would be far better choices for use as Grief-launched projectiles.
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So, that makes me wonder. Does that mean if we wield our hammers with grief hands, we can cause more damage than just grief blades?
 
Mami and Homura can perform "intelligent, controlled, versatile action at speed" because they have a great deal of experience, even if they have no formal "training" per se. Combat is fast, too fast for the plodding process that is conscious thought, especially when adrenalin is making you shaky. Responses have to be reflexive, and you get those reflexes by practicing those responses again and again and again. Formal organizations achieve that with months of training, but Mami and Homura have had to achieve it through years of exposure to actual combat situations. Trying to develop those same sort of reflexes without actually being put in deadly danger is the reason that Mami is having the inexperienced magical girls--us and Sayaka--do this training.

So these training sessions and sparring matches do have value for us, if we want Sabrina to stop being overwhelmed by the pace of combat and develop better reflexes in the heat of the moment.

Genial Precis said:
Witches are weird, and variable, and a sword that could cut no better than a piece of steel would often be completely useless...
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The fact that Homura has success using mundane firearms and explosives against Witches doesn't really bear this theory out.
 
The Narrator said:
So these training sessions and sparring matches do have value for us, if we want Sabrina to stop being overwhelmed by the pace of combat and develop better reflexes in the heat of the moment.
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Yes. Sparring with friends and developing better instincts is definitely a good thing, but since I've been talking so much about the hammer I want to be clear that I'm not advocating that we divert from that objective in favor of hammer magic.
The Narrator said:
The fact that Homura has success using mundane firearms and explosives against Witches doesn't really bear this theory out.
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I disagree. Stopping a sword cut is much easier than stopping a rifle bullet, much less an anti-tank rocket, from the armor's point of view. The sword needs a bit of help, even if backed by meguca strength, to play in the same league. Even if the enhancement is no more than keeping a durable super-sharp edge that would be implausible on a mundane steel sword.
 
The Narrator said:
So these training sessions and sparring matches do have value for us, if we want Sabrina to stop being overwhelmed by the pace of combat and develop better reflexes in the heat of the moment.
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Your point is a very good one, but training cannot be used to its maximum effect, because our fighting style can be resumed in "rend it appart with grief", and that kind of things cannot be safely practized. We can gain proper reflexes outside grief use, understand combat theory, even become decent with that paperweight of ours, but developing grief reflexes at the limit of our abilities is something we cannot do outside real scenarios.
 
[Q] Come monday, have time skips (a week?).
-[Q] Ask Mami to train your combat reflexes while time skipping.
--[Q] Have a single training scene where we get wrecked by Mami pushing us to our limits, to show how that week's gonna go.
---[Q] Stop timeskip while something important is happening. Don't want braindeadbrina too busy timeskipping to notice Oriko's soul is imploding or something.

Wait, are we going to Asunaro on monday, or something? Man, we're never gonna reach Walpurgisnacht, are we? :V

EDIT: Maybe we can call her over by phone telepathy? If we can have the circus show up earlier, we can make Homu happy faster and then there's only Feathers to deal with. I'm a genius.
 
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Onmur said:
EDIT: Maybe we can call her over by phone telepathy? If we can have the circus show up earlier, we can make Homu happy faster and then there's only Feathers to deal with. I'm a genius.
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Following this incident, Sabrina's Witch is no longer Dedolere.
Instead, she is Rochelle, the Witch of Regret.
 
So... I had a thought. How many Magical Girls has Sabrina broken, and how many Magical Girls are there?

Because I think, if we count Mami, Akiko, and to be generous, we can count Rin too, for the accidental Lich Bomb, we've broke a total of three meguca.

Three. Beign generous.

Breaking the whole system is gonna take forever if we don't step up our game.

Hell, maybe we're not the System Breaker? Maybe the System Breaker is Feathers, and we're playing the antagonist role?

:V

Script Mak3r said:
Following this incident, Sabrina's Witch is no longer Dedolere.
Instead, she is Rochelle, the Witch of Regret.
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"No Sabrina... YOU are the Witch!"

"... And?"

"... You're the Witch?"

"We figured as much."

"Yes."

"Kind of obvious."

"Super obvious."

*Grumbles*
 
Genial Precis said:
I disagree. Stopping a sword cut is much easier than stopping a rifle bullet, much less an anti-tank rocket, from the armor's point of view. The sword needs a bit of help, even if backed by meguca strength, to play in the same league. Even if the enhancement is no more than keeping a durable super-sharp edge that would be implausible on a mundane steel sword.
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Ah, I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that non-magical weapons in general would be little use.

It's really going to depend on the nature of the witch, I think. Some are fairly amorphous, and would probably need explosives or fire to deal with quickly. Others might be too well armored for melee weapons (and a little more armor might make buckshot, hollow points and shrapnel useless as well). And now that I think about it, it seems like some witches take a lot of damage to take out. Charlotte withstood repeating musket shots and a Tiro Finale, and took several grenades to finish off. Sayaka was chopping away at Elsa Maria with her sword for so long that it lasted into the next episode. In the quest, Sabrina was tearing away at Hildegard for a while before it finally expired. So killing a witch with a mundane sword might be theoretically possible, but take so much hacking that a normal human probably couldn't survive its counterattacks long enough.


Onmur said:
So... I had a thought. How many Magical Girls has Sabrina broken, and how many Magical Girls are there?

Because I think, if we count Mami, Akiko, and to be generous, we can count Rin too, for the accidental Lich Bomb, we've broke a total of three meguca.
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What, Oriko and Kirika don't count? Plus I think we gave the Hiroshima girls, or at least Moe, some PTSD.
 
The Narrator said:
What, Oriko and Kirika don't count? Plus I think we gave the Hiroshima girls, or at least Moe, some PTSD.
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Oriko's kind of breaking herself, despite our best effort to put her back together (really, thread? Are we a Tsundere-Breaker now? Break them sometimes, fix them others? :rolleyes: ).

Moe should count, I guess.

Hopefully this'll go smoother once we get a reputation. We just need to advertise our Breaking prowess.

So, let's see, the breaking of Akiko's pretty well known: All the Sendai girls were damn well impressed at our ruthlessness, and even Masami and Hiroko got word of it, and were surprised by our ability to break adolescent girls.

Moe hopefully's advertising our and Mami's ruthless brutality, and even Mobile Oppression Fortress might help our fame, what with how we used it to carry 'corpses'.

Maybe we can talk Kirika into helping? If she goes 'Oh yeah, remember that time you broke my leg, it was awesome', maybe people can attribute her craziness to our influence.

All in all, we've got our work cut for us.
 
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