Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
I'm not so sure that this apologizing profusely and begging to be heard out is the right tact to take. It might be better to be a bit firmer. Something more along the lines of:
"Mami, this is important and scary but you need to hear me out. I'm coming clean and you can hate me or forgive me, but you owe it to me to let me finish before passing judgement."
The fact is that Mami usually seems to respond well to firm insistence and calmness. Responding to her breaking down by allowing Sabrina to break down risks causing a feedback loop of tears. Apologies sure, but Sabrina should defend her decision-making and not just excuse it.
"Mami, this is important and scary but you need to hear me out. I'm coming clean and you can hate me or forgive me, but you owe it to me to let me finish before passing judgement."
The fact is that Mami usually seems to respond well to firm insistence and calmness. Responding to her breaking down by allowing Sabrina to break down risks causing a feedback loop of tears. Apologies sure, but Sabrina should defend her decision-making and not just excuse it.
- Location
- South Africa
I don't see that as a problem
- Location
- Borneo
Shit.
The dreaded moment's here, and I'm not ready for this!
Poor Mami..
Anyway...I'll go for Godwin's first.
[X]Godwinson
The dreaded moment's here, and I'm not ready for this!
Poor Mami..
Anyway...I'll go for Godwin's first.
[X]Godwinson
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Think of the KB parallels.
I did and actually thought about posting a parallel.
Mami was led around by the nose by Incubator for so long because she responds well to firm insistence and calmness, which was how it basically always communicates. That she has now turned against Kyubey does not mean that her essential personality has changed. It's likely she still responds well to firm insistence and calmness.
The fact that KB used firm insistence and calmness for evil does not mean we shouldn't use it for good.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
We're actively being compared with KB right now.
Her personality is her personality and she cannot change what strikes a chord in her, active comparisons or not.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
... Do you want to confirm Mami's fears that we are like Kyuubey, and will hurt her and leave her?
She's not being subtle about it.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Mami was lead around by the nose by Incubator for so long because she responds well to not being alone, and Kyuubey never left her. It wouldn't matter what Kyuubey's personality type was as long as it didn't abandon her like all her other friends.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
We should show emotion, or we'll come off insincere and apathetic. But we need to balance that with self-control, or we'll end up blubbering and babbling and failing to convey what we want to convey before she loses patience with us. And I don't like the idea of begging her to let us stay, because I think that comes off a bit selfish, like we're more concerned with how this is going to affect us than the effect it's having on her. We need to make it clear that we care about her, not just about having a rent-free place to stay.
How's this sound?
[X] "Because I was scared. I'm sorry. I should have told you a long time ago. I know that. At first, I didn't say anything because I didn't think anyone would believe me. How could anyone believe it? It seems so impossible. And Kyubey was always here… listening… spying on us. If he finds out what I know, we're all dead. If I'd told you when we first met what a monster he was, would you have believed me? And when I finally got up the courage to tell you that he was tricking you, to tell you the truth about Soul Gems, you were so hurt by it… I hated myself for putting you through that. I was afraid that if I tried to tell you the rest, I would hurt you again."
-[X] "But that's all just excuses. The real reason is because I'm a coward. I was afraid of… well, of this. (Well, okay, not the ribbon thing; that was a surprise.) I was afraid of you hating me for keeping this from you. I was afraid of losing you. But I couldn't stay quiet any longer. It wasn't right. It wasn't fair to you. I don't want to keep secrets from you anymore. You're my best friend. You're practically my family. I want to be honest with you. Even if… even if it costs me your friendship. You deserve the truth."
--[X] "I don't know how I know these things. I'm not a clairvoyant. I didn't spy on you. I just woke up knowing them. I didn't recognize my own face in the mirror, but I knew who all of you were the moment I saw you. I knew that Homura had a good heart under that gruff exterior, and I knew that Kyubey was really a monster… and I knew that you were a hero. And when I actually got to know you, I discovered that the real you was even more amazing than I'd realized. If you can still stand the sight of me after all this... then I'd like nothing more than to stay by your side."
[X] "I'll abide by whatever decision you make. I won't keep things from you anymore. Ask me anything. I'll tell you any secret that's mine to tell."
[X] If at time during the conversation, we sense that Mami's Soul Gem has reached half full again, remind her that she needs to cleanse it.
-[X] If Mami doesn't, tell her that we'll abide by any decision she makes… but we will not allow her to commit suicide by letting her Soul Gem fill up. Beg her to cleanse her Soul Gem, if need be.
--[X] If she doesn't cleanse it herself and it reaches dangerous levels, then we will use our powers to cleanse it for her, after warning her that we intend to. If by some miracle we're not still tied up at that point, we will not reach for it while cleansing it or make any other sudden movements that could startle her.
EDIT: I was going to add a bunch of potential responses for likely questions that she might ask, but I figured that would make the whole thing ridiculously long. I figure that this is probably what we'd cover in an update.
How's this sound?
[X] "Because I was scared. I'm sorry. I should have told you a long time ago. I know that. At first, I didn't say anything because I didn't think anyone would believe me. How could anyone believe it? It seems so impossible. And Kyubey was always here… listening… spying on us. If he finds out what I know, we're all dead. If I'd told you when we first met what a monster he was, would you have believed me? And when I finally got up the courage to tell you that he was tricking you, to tell you the truth about Soul Gems, you were so hurt by it… I hated myself for putting you through that. I was afraid that if I tried to tell you the rest, I would hurt you again."
-[X] "But that's all just excuses. The real reason is because I'm a coward. I was afraid of… well, of this. (Well, okay, not the ribbon thing; that was a surprise.) I was afraid of you hating me for keeping this from you. I was afraid of losing you. But I couldn't stay quiet any longer. It wasn't right. It wasn't fair to you. I don't want to keep secrets from you anymore. You're my best friend. You're practically my family. I want to be honest with you. Even if… even if it costs me your friendship. You deserve the truth."
--[X] "I don't know how I know these things. I'm not a clairvoyant. I didn't spy on you. I just woke up knowing them. I didn't recognize my own face in the mirror, but I knew who all of you were the moment I saw you. I knew that Homura had a good heart under that gruff exterior, and I knew that Kyubey was really a monster… and I knew that you were a hero. And when I actually got to know you, I discovered that the real you was even more amazing than I'd realized. If you can still stand the sight of me after all this... then I'd like nothing more than to stay by your side."
[X] "I'll abide by whatever decision you make. I won't keep things from you anymore. Ask me anything. I'll tell you any secret that's mine to tell."
[X] If at time during the conversation, we sense that Mami's Soul Gem has reached half full again, remind her that she needs to cleanse it.
-[X] If Mami doesn't, tell her that we'll abide by any decision she makes… but we will not allow her to commit suicide by letting her Soul Gem fill up. Beg her to cleanse her Soul Gem, if need be.
--[X] If she doesn't cleanse it herself and it reaches dangerous levels, then we will use our powers to cleanse it for her, after warning her that we intend to. If by some miracle we're not still tied up at that point, we will not reach for it while cleansing it or make any other sudden movements that could startle her.
EDIT: I was going to add a bunch of potential responses for likely questions that she might ask, but I figured that would make the whole thing ridiculously long. I figure that this is probably what we'd cover in an update.
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Atosen
A chimney
- Location
- on a roof in New Zealand
Yes and no. Her personality hasn't changed, but she has acquired a new trauma. If we're calm and collected right when our deception is revealed, she may associate that with how Kyubey has calm and collected when its deception was revealed. The last thing we want to do is trigger more of that recognition in Mami's mind.
You may be right about the risks of a feedback loop of crying, but I think it's very important that we show how emotional we are about this, and that we lay out our cards for why we did what we did (but not building a wall of justification to hide behind), and we try to make her see us as a fellow person, a friend, who made a mistake. Not an impassive traitor. Empathy is key here.
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- Location
- Illinois
The first thing out of our mouth should not be an apology, it should be something that will answer Mami's fucking question. If the first thing out of our mouth is an apology she's going to flashback to QB -- who responded to her anguish by confirming her fears -- and promptly jump out that window. Everyone who crafts a vote for this post should re-read the lichbomb scene first. Minimize similarities to it, please.
So far I'm favoring "I couldn't, I can't lose you" as a first line. If nothing else it's definitely not what she expects to hear, which is a very good thing. We didn't frontload the part literally designed to stabilize her mentality and as a result she's being not stable. We have to get that part communicated and to make that happen we need to break her betrayal-spiral. To do that we need to say something exactly the opposite of what she's imagining she'll hear next.
Don't keep trying to explain this from the ground up. Don't focus on apologizing. Go top down, here. She wants to know why but the why is a fairly long topic and she's in breakdown mode now.
The proper response to that would be to yank mami's soulgem, restrain her, and talk her through it, as drastic and heartbreaking as the process might be.
It's as much a physically conditioned response as anything else potentially, Dusk. Kyubey came to her, saved her life, helped her be Great Justice! For two years. She's lost Kyouko, and others, and... When every good thing in your life eventually leaves or betrays you, you come to see a pattern to things. It's not possible to maintain a stable mindset when your circumstances preclude the development of such a thing in the first place! You have no right to look down on that! You have the luxury of being able to look at these things clearly. Mami doesn't, she never has! And she's fourteen on top of that, a middle schooler with no parents! And you're dissapointed that she's been traumatized into automatically reacting this way? How could she react any differently!?
So far I'm favoring "I couldn't, I can't lose you" as a first line. If nothing else it's definitely not what she expects to hear, which is a very good thing. We didn't frontload the part literally designed to stabilize her mentality and as a result she's being not stable. We have to get that part communicated and to make that happen we need to break her betrayal-spiral. To do that we need to say something exactly the opposite of what she's imagining she'll hear next.
Don't keep trying to explain this from the ground up. Don't focus on apologizing. Go top down, here. She wants to know why but the why is a fairly long topic and she's in breakdown mode now.
The proper response to that would be to yank mami's soulgem, restrain her, and talk her through it, as drastic and heartbreaking as the process might be.
It's as much a physically conditioned response as anything else potentially, Dusk. Kyubey came to her, saved her life, helped her be Great Justice! For two years. She's lost Kyouko, and others, and... When every good thing in your life eventually leaves or betrays you, you come to see a pattern to things. It's not possible to maintain a stable mindset when your circumstances preclude the development of such a thing in the first place! You have no right to look down on that! You have the luxury of being able to look at these things clearly. Mami doesn't, she never has! And she's fourteen on top of that, a middle schooler with no parents! And you're dissapointed that she's been traumatized into automatically reacting this way? How could she react any differently!?
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
On the 'why', while I go into:
She's really asking why is it that everybody betrays her, and why Sabrina too, in particular, but I think it's more that she's asking to the fucking world that keeps pulling this shit on her.
- Location
- Illinois
So tell her that we're not. Tell her that the system of betrayal ends now.
Look I'm just talking generalizations atm I haven't looked at all the votes and I haven't cherrypicked pieces yet.
Atosen
A chimney
- Location
- on a roof in New Zealand
Yes, an apology that's all about yourself is an abject failure of an apology... but I find that in certain circumstances, it can actually be helpful to talk a little about your own desires/fears when apologising. I think it's about exposing your own vulnerabilities.
Nolrai
weak to fangs
- Location
- Porltand
Don't agree with what?
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah, now seems like a bad time for dramatic self-deprecation.
[X] The Narrator
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
The whole thing is shown in the "Different Story" spin-off manga. That's one thing that we don't have to worry about, as there's really no resemblance between that situation and this one, unless we suddenly decide to declare that we intend to quit helping people and only fight when there's a reward.
Out of curiosity, what do you think the mistake was? Bringing up the subject at all? The timing of it? Something else?
I'm unclear on this as well. Did Sabrina actually do something wrong, or is this a case of apologizing even when you were right?