Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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The tone is pretty much a Sabrina Rant. It won't work.
Muramasa
Best Girl
Because it sounds like we are frustrated and are taking it out on her failings. The ones she isn't at fault for (not knowing any better / getting tricked into contracting), not even the ones she is. Which would be what exactly, getting mad because someone harassed her and broke into her home? I think being angry is reasonable and we aren't going to talk her down by getting angry in return.
Not only that, but we set the tone extremely badly by going after her for the crony remark. Mami and Homura know damn well they're not our cronies. We have to be the bigger person when someone insults us like that. It doesn't even make sense, because no shit she's trying to insult us. That's the entire point of what she said.
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I vaguely get the cat reference (enough that I can assume what quest it's from), but not the other one.
It occurs to me that asking where the hell it's coming from could (if we're right in our assumptions) provide a natural lead-in to the "don't trust Kyubey" discussion.
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I've X'ed this vote, not because I think it's perfect for our situation, but because it is basically textbook on how to talk someone down.
In our particular case, we need to be able to have two-way communication with her in order for her to listen to us and take us seriously on the magic use / soul gem points. We don't have that as things stand. I think this approach is the best way to begin a two-way dialogue. We can afford to be patient, as she is literally going nowhere and literally cannot do anything but talk and listen.
In our particular case, we need to be able to have two-way communication with her in order for her to listen to us and take us seriously on the magic use / soul gem points. We don't have that as things stand. I think this approach is the best way to begin a two-way dialogue. We can afford to be patient, as she is literally going nowhere and literally cannot do anything but talk and listen.
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On this I agree with SWB.
We shouldn't get angry with her or belittle her. It won't help. We're better than that.
[x]SWB
This might work (and if it does, it'll be better long term), and more importantly, it won't cause problems if it fails. We can try more extreme measures if they become necessary.
We shouldn't get angry with her or belittle her. It won't help. We're better than that.
[x]SWB
This might work (and if it does, it'll be better long term), and more importantly, it won't cause problems if it fails. We can try more extreme measures if they become necessary.
Muramasa
Best Girl
Edited vote.
noahgab1133
Fluffy?
[x] muramasa
From a beep boop perfect robot POV, the crony response is technically a bad reaction...but it's called for and the right thing to do in this case. We don't want to go overboard, but we need an actual human response to it. Why? Homura and Mami are, actually, our friends, and just letting that remark pass is bad. It's tacit agreement. It's not speaking up for our friends, or showing anger at them being slightest. In her eyes, it's proving her right about that.
Plus it's how an actual human being would tend to react in that situation, which is always a plus. @Muramasa the vote is worse for that line's absence or some kind of actual reaction to her insulting Mami and Homura.
She asked specific questions. Why would we keep saying we're going to explain rather than, you know, actually do it when she's flat out demanding that we do so? At this point, further apologies rather than saying something of substance are completely, utterly useless as the past few updates should have made quite clear.
Once again, your justification for the vote is largely accurate-except for the part where she's asking questions of us that we can actually answer and don't for no apparent reason in your vote-but your approach based on it is disastrous.
As for 'Sabrina rants'...god forbid the character act like a human being where doing so makes sense, isn't going to do much more damage, and partially tries to hint that Mami and Homu are there for Ono's benefit.
Plus it's how an actual human being would tend to react in that situation, which is always a plus. @Muramasa the vote is worse for that line's absence or some kind of actual reaction to her insulting Mami and Homura.
Textbook =/= an actually good vote. It's not just imperfect- it comes over as bland, inhuman, and most of all not applicable to a situation where we have an upset magical girl who just tried to take a swing at us. There is no way this one winning would get us anywhere good, and the only reason it won't do real damage is that she's already tied up. I think we've had enough failed votes and updates so far without having another update where Sabrina treads water without saying or doing anything of value.
She asked specific questions. Why would we keep saying we're going to explain rather than, you know, actually do it when she's flat out demanding that we do so? At this point, further apologies rather than saying something of substance are completely, utterly useless as the past few updates should have made quite clear.
Once again, your justification for the vote is largely accurate-except for the part where she's asking questions of us that we can actually answer and don't for no apparent reason in your vote-but your approach based on it is disastrous.
As for 'Sabrina rants'...god forbid the character act like a human being where doing so makes sense, isn't going to do much more damage, and partially tries to hint that Mami and Homu are there for Ono's benefit.
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@Muramasa
I think we do need to give her an 'out'. Something so she doesn't feel trapped. Letting her think that we'd leave her alone if she plays along and lets us teach her how to stay alive would do that. (More honestly, we'd keep an eye on her via timestop and Oriko just so we can be sure she won't witch out, but she doesn't need to actually know that.)
I think the 'show you can stay alive and we'll leave you alone if you want' approach is the best way to defuse her anger and give her an out. It lets us work on her with her cooperation, which lets us try and get through to her during Meguca 101, and gets her out of the GET OUT GET OUT RIGHT NOW mindset, which is our current main barrier to doing that.
As an aside, not sure we want to go into that much detail in the first line of the Muravote rather than just getting to the point about using too much magic, the highlighted regions of the second line seem problematic due to making assumptions and talking down to her when she's pretty hostile, the third line could use some rephrasing and the fourth line...Hmm. I fully agree with the intent of the line but honestly it comes over a bit as telling her what to do, which is going to...cause problems.Muravote said:
I think we do need to give her an 'out'. Something so she doesn't feel trapped. Letting her think that we'd leave her alone if she plays along and lets us teach her how to stay alive would do that. (More honestly, we'd keep an eye on her via timestop and Oriko just so we can be sure she won't witch out, but she doesn't need to actually know that.)
I think the 'show you can stay alive and we'll leave you alone if you want' approach is the best way to defuse her anger and give her an out. It lets us work on her with her cooperation, which lets us try and get through to her during Meguca 101, and gets her out of the GET OUT GET OUT RIGHT NOW mindset, which is our current main barrier to doing that.
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It's a comment made in anger. There's no argument to be made - we shouldn't attempt to engage her literal raging.
An actual human being can ignore insults just fine. Mami and Homura aren't going to put any stock in what Megane says. They know damn well how we care for them.
It is perfectly applicable to this situation. I call it textbook, but the approach outlined actually works to defuse situations, even violent ones. I've used it personally when people are up in my face and I need to get them to do something.
She stated a question, but she's not going to listen to an answer. It is very much rhetorical. We certainly can give an answer, but instead we should focus on getting her to a state where she will actually consider what we say.
There is no situation where we should get angry at Megane. It is literally the failure condition of this entire interaction.
To act like a human does not mean to react with fire in the face of someone acting irrational. You are wanting Sabrina to get angry at her because she makes you, personally, angry. Stop and actually think.
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But it is a rant
An actual human being ignoring insults to their friends? Yeah, no, not buying it in this situation for this character.
Mami the amazing human limpet? Honestly, not even protesting is entirely the wrong way to write.
Regardless of any and all life experiences, it's simply awful as a response for Sabrina in this situation. Your experiences don't matter at all for this situation.
She is literally a captive audience who is demanding responses, as you pointed out. Not answering regardless of her state is a bad, bad move. She's already in that state and failing to do anything now is just plain stalling for no reason whatsoever.
Not really, SWB. I honestly don't have any strong feelings on Ono commentary. (Vote-crafting on the other hand...) In general I want Sabrina to befriend Ono because that's what makes sense for the character and it's a more palpable ending story-wise than a lot of the alternatives.
I have strong feelings about how we should be writing a character's response to Ono commentary because of that character's relationships and interactions. There's quite a difference there- and I'll thank you not to accuse me of being unable to keep IC and OOC opinions separate without better evidence.
I just want us to write an actual character and not some kind of robot spewing babble ripped from the pages of some psychiatric textbook and with no actual understand of how to act like a human being or what they care about. And that's exactly what I feel your suggestion would have us do.
tl;dr There is no reason whatsoever not to have Sabrina object, briefly, to her friends being insulted.
The vote for context.
Ugovote said:
The first part. Three lines.
It objects to them being called cronies, says that Mami and Homura are here because they want to help, points out that Ono doesn't know anything about them, and says that Mami's kind. Ignoring the benefits of saying nice things about Mami in front of Mami for her self-esteem (I seriously hope there isn't some kind of psychobabble about why that's a bad idea), it's brief and refutes Ono's implication that Mami and Homu are basically there to act as muscle because Sabrina's ordering them around. (ie: cronies)
Sabrina is annoyed about the crony remark in that vote- you know, because she's actually friends with Mami and Homura and not some kind of emotionless drone?- but uses it to say something actually constructive.
The rest of the vote actually gets to the damn point and gives Ono an out. I can't see a single way for Ono to react badly to anything short of the second to last line, has us let her down if she's calm enough, and generally tries to communicate the vital information we need to that we STILL haven't told her for no reason other than the voting process.
tl;dr: ever heard of IC and OOC separation? The idea of Sabrina annoyance is pretty much that.
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I think there are several really good reasons, but setting aside Megane herself, it's better for our friends if we don't rise to the bait. Homura is looking for ways to talk to someone who won't listen to her, and she actually doesn't have our option of restraining them, so we have to solve things with our words. Mami gets uncomfortable when we rant, and was actively trying to defuse things even despite the violence. We owe it to both of them to resolve the situation we brought them into. They don't need defending from insults that won't impact them, especially if the defending actively hurts everything they are working with us towards.
If we have to address this, a simple "They aren't cronies" says enough. But we'd still be getting baited into the argument Ono wants, and that's awful.
If we have to address this, a simple "They aren't cronies" says enough. But we'd still be getting baited into the argument Ono wants, and that's awful.
...I really don't see the relevance to 'we need to set an example for Homu and Mami's annoyed' given that a)objecting to the slur is just the first part of the vote, b)we are well, well past the point where Mami'd be upset. She just lashed out and tied Ono up. This is already past the 'Mami might be uncomfortable' stage and into 'time for Sabrina to say something about everything'.
I strongly disagree that an objection to an insult that segways into something actually productive is an actual problem with any of the votes.
Yes, we need to write a good vote that doesn't cause problems, but that and writing a character that reacts in a human way are not mutually exclusive at all. I strongly disagree that objecting to them being called cronies would hurt what they're working towards in any way, shape, or form.
Since it's apparently a problem, I'm going to add a band-aid there to placate SWB's objection about being dragged into an argument with Ono over the cronies thing. The actual vote doesn't change much.
[x]Annoyed tone. Don't let Ono drag you into an argument.
-[x]Say what you want about me, but don't you dare call Mami a crony. Or Homura. Mami's one of the kindest people I know. You don't know anything about either of them...and they're here because they give a damn about what happens to you and want to help you.
[x]Homura. Put that away, please.
[x]Calm yourself before you keep speaking. Let Mami or Homura speak first if they have anything to say.
[x]Yes. We broke into your house. Because you are going to die if you keep doing things your way. That's why we did it, and why you need to listen to us.
-[x]You're using your magic too much. Do that and your gem fills up with grief. If it's full? That kills you.
--[x]It gets worse. Remember what you felt like when we found you? That won't go away unless you use a grief seed...and the worse it gets, the less likely you are to want to do something about it. Grief's self-reinforcing.
--[x]That's why grief seeds are so important. Why you need to use them, and why most Puella Magi need to hunt constantly to stay alive. Why I want to try and cleanse everyone...and why I gave that grief seed to you.
[x]If you never want to see us again, we'll do that...but only after we're sure you'll be alright on your own. You think I'm a meddler? Fine. Show me that you don't need me to meddle for you to stay alive and I promise you'll never see me again after that. You can hunt Witches on your own if that's really what you want, then...but only when we're sure you won't actually die.
[x]If Mami lets you go, will you listen to us?
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That's even worse. "Annoyed tone"? Are you serious?
Okay then. It's staying as it is anyway.
And, yes, completely. Because generally human beings tend to have these things called emotions, and it kind of misses the whole point to say it in a bland monotone. Annoyed tone just makes it explicit rather than implicit because it evidently needed spelling out that we weren't going to get dragged into an argument over it.
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